Some of my ales not clearing

[okiedog]

Lately I've noticed that my ales don't clear up like they used too. I can use gelatin in the keg, but sometimes they still have a very slight haze. My process has not changed, but I do pitch from slurry, and I'm thinking it is time to replace some of my yeasts. I leave my ales in primary for 14 days before kegging, and usually keg condition.

Any suggestions?

 

[WBB]

Do you cold crash?

 

[okiedog]

Do you cold crash?

Sort of. I just put the keg in the serving fridge when it's done conditioning. It takes 2-3 days to get down to 35F, from room temp.

 

[histo320]

Cold crashing can help but it also depends on what ingredients you are using. Some ingredients like oats or wheat don't clear.

I have cold crashed and then kegged and some beers still take a few weeks to clear up.

I used to use fining like Irish Moss, Whirlfloc, and Gelatin with some success but quit doing it when I ran out. I don't care how the beer looks and neither do my friends so I quit worrying about it.

 

[okiedog]

I am in the process of replacing a lot of my yeast strains. I've gotten a lot out of them, but it's time to start fresh with some of them.

 

[brewbama]

How rapidly do you cool your wort?

In the Summer my ground water is warmer so cooling wort is significantly reduced. I have to get it as cool as I can and let the fridge take it the rest of the way which could be overnight in the worst case. I use kettle finings, cold temp + time, but sometimes (rarely) I have to break out the gelatin.

In the Winter my ground water is cold so I get more complete cooling which drops out more protein.

So, to combat this, I use an ice bucket prechiller where I run my cooling water thru a copper chiller in an ice water filled bucket before reaching my wort chiller.

A benefit of rapid chilling is better clarity in the finished beer. The faster wort cools, the better the cold break. Cold break is proteins from the malt that coagulate and settle out during chilling. These proteins will contribute to haze. The greater the amount left in the kettle, the sooner you can achieve a clear beer in the glass.

 

[okiedog]

Cold crashing can help but it also depends on what ingredients you are using. Some ingredients like oats or wheat don't clear.

I have cold crashed and then kegged and some beers still take a few weeks to clear up.

I used to use fining like Irish Moss, Whirlfloc, and Gelatin with some success but quit doing it when I ran out. I don't care how the beer looks and neither do my friends so I quit worrying about it.

I use Irish moss and when the beer doesn't clear when it should, I use gelatin. Too much yeast in suspension can have an astringent taste. I still think it's the yeast slurry - too many generations. I used to never have such problems.

 

[okiedog]

How rapidly do you cool your wort?

In the Summer my ground water is warmer so cooling wort is significantly reduced. I have to get it as cool as I can and let the fridge take it the rest of the way which could be overnight in the worst case. I use kettle finings, cold temp + time, but sometimes (rarely) I have to break out the gelatin.

In the Winter my ground water is cold so I get more complete cooling which drops out more protein.

So, to combat this, I use an ice bucket prechiller where I run my cooling water thru a copper chiller in an ice water filled bucket before reaching my wort chiller.

A benefit of rapid chilling is better clarity in the finished beer. The faster wort cools, the better the cold break. Cold break is proteins from the malt that coagulate and settle out during chilling. These proteins will contribute to haze. The greater the amount left in the kettle, the sooner you can achieve a clear beer in the glass.

I usually whirlpool hops 170-150F. It gets down to 170 within about 5 min.

 

[okiedog]

I have clear wort going into the fermentor, but it is hazy after fermentation.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Do you know what the Calcium level is in your water? Pushing it up past 100ppm can help ales clear better.

 

[okiedog]

I use distilled water and for my salt additions, target 50+ calcium (usually 50-70). I haven't tried 100 ppm or more, except maybe in Stouts, but that's something I could try. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm still thinking my clearing problem is yeast, but as I have said, I haven't changed my process. I want to change only one thing at a time, starting with the yeast. Thanks again for the suggestion.

 

[DownHillonWater]

A second for increasing calcium levels over 100ppm. Makes a big difference in clarification.

 

[okiedog]

Thanks! I'll bump up the calcium in my next brew, and see what happens. I'm not sure when I'll get time to brew again, but when I do I'll let you guys know.

 

[Dland]

Cold crash to almost freezing and wait always works for me.

Worth it to wait a week or two at least, if you have something else to drink. If not, probably sill better than what you might buy, if you are doing things correctly.

Also have had clearer brews with whirlfolck near end of boil than gelatin in the kegs. Have tried both.

 

[okiedog]

Cold crash to almost freezing and wait always works for me.

Worth it to wait a week or two at least, if you have something else to drink. If not, probably sill better than what you might buy, if you are doing things correctly.

Also have had clearer brews with whirlfolck near end of boil than gelatin in the kegs. Have tried both.

I use re-hydrated Irish moss the last 15 minutes of the boil, and that used to work great for me. I nearly always wait 2 weeks after I put the keg in the fridge, but some of my beers never get completely clear. But again, my issue with beers not clearing up is a recent development over the last several months. My Witbier yeast, WLP 3944, had the opposite problem. My Witbier started clearing up after 2 weeks in the fridge, so next time, I'll start with a fresh batch of yeast for that.

 

[LittleRiver]

You seem convinced that your re-used yeast is the issue, and it may be, but not necessarily. As others have mentioned there could be other variables: a difference in your chilling time, length of cold crash, etc.

I've never read anything that would indicate that re-used yeast doesn't drop as clear as fresh yeast. If you have a reference on that, please post it.

I've got some WY1450 that I've been brewing with for almost 3 years. I'm not having problems with any of the beers dropping clear (nor any taste problems).

I tried Irish Moss once, and gelatin a couple of times, just to see what difference they made. I think they did make a small difference, but cold crashing the fermenter to the mid-high 30'sF for a week is more effective than the additives. Now I only cold crash.

For post boil chilling I recirculate ice water through an immersion chiller, so I get a good quick chill.

 

[okiedog]

LittleRiver, I have been using some of my yeast strains for 4-5 years. Some have lost character, so I am starting to replace them. One problem is that I am too busy to brew as often as I used too. I'm not convinced that yeast is the problem, but I would like to rule that out before looking further. My kegged ales get 2 weeks minimum at 35F. As for quick cooling the hot wort, I may not cool mine as fast as you do yours, but the wort going into the fermentor is clear. It's after fermentation that the beer is unclear. I get a good rolling boil, add Irish moss or Whirlfloc, and only add gelatin to the keg if the beer doesn't clear. On some beers, even that still leaves chill haze. So, more than one cause, maybe?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've never read anything that would indicate that re-used yeast doesn't drop as clear as fresh yeast. If you have a reference on that, please post it.

If yeast is collected for re-pitch from secondary, the brewer is collecting the less-flocculent yeast from each batch, so is likely to end up with an issue with the beer dropping clear over a few generations. Conversely, if it's collected from primary after transfer to secondary, you're likely to end up with highly flocculent yeast that may not attenuate fully. Of course, the majority of home brewers on HBT don't use secondaries so this shouldn't be an issue (a fully completed primary ferment should have a good mix of yeast in the slurry). I'm conscious of it because I ferment in kegs and often transfer to serving keg quite early (before FG is reached) and spund in the serving keg. I'll only reuse the yeast from the ferment keg a couple of times this way so I don't get problems (or overbuild starters).

I've got some WY1450 that I've been brewing with for almost 3 years. I'm not having problems with any of the beers dropping clear (nor any taste problems).

Nice. You must have very good harvesting and storage methods. It's generally not recommended to go that long (although some strains work better than others) unless using lab techniques, but if it's still working then keep going! Are you using slurry, overbuilt starters, slants, or isotonic salt storage?

 

[LittleRiver]

... from secondary, the brewer is collecting the less-flocculent yeast from each batch, so is likely to end up with an issue with the beer dropping clear...from primary after transfer to secondary, you're likely to end up with highly flocculent yeast that may not attenuate fully....

That makes sense from a conventional wisdom point of view, but what we think is happening may not be what is actually happening. I'm genuinely curious if anyone knows if this aspect of yeast has been studied scientifically to verify or debunk the conventional wisdom.

... You must have very good harvesting and storage methods. It's generally not recommended to go that long (although some strains work better than others)...

I don't do anything special, I just collect post fermentation yeast slurry in sanitized glass jars. Sometimes I do overbuild starters, but more than not I just re-use slurry.

WY1450 is the only one I've ran this long, so I don't have anything to compare it to.

Based on the conventional wisdom, I expected that I would start having problems with the yeast a couple of years ago, but it just hasn't happened. I suspect that some of the information available regarding re-use of yeast is just myth.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

That makes sense from a conventional wisdom point of view, but what we think is happening may not be what is actually happening. I'm genuinely curious if anyone knows if this aspect of yeast has been studied scientifically to verify or debunk the conventional wisdom.

It's written about in 'Yeast' (the book by Chris White), which I'd assume is based on studies, but might be just based on his assumptions.

 

[LittleRiver]

The yeast producers advise us to use new yeast, and I don't blame them for that. It costs them money to produce their product (which is a quality product), and they're in business to make money. Nothing wrong with any of that.

But I've always had this nagging thought that since yeast are such hearty creatures that have been around such a long time, why do yeast need a laboratory to remain viable for making good beer?

So I'm re-using yeast indefinitely, just to see how it goes. Like I said earlier, I've got 3 years on some WY1450 and haven't noticed any of the problems the conventional/industry wisdom says I should be having.

 

[okiedog]

If yeast is collected for re-pitch from secondary, the brewer is collecting the less-flocculent yeast from each batch, so is likely to end up with an issue with the beer dropping clear over a few generations. Conversely, if it's collected from primary after transfer to secondary, you're likely to end up with highly flocculent yeast that may not attenuate fully. Of course, the majority of home brewers on HBT don't use secondaries so this shouldn't be an issue (a fully completed primary ferment should have a good mix of yeast in the slurry). I'm conscious of it because I ferment in kegs and often transfer to serving keg quite early (before FG is reached) and spund in the serving keg. I'll only reuse the yeast from the ferment keg a couple of times this way so I don't get problems (or overbuild starters).



Nice. You must have very good harvesting and storage methods. It's generally not recommended to go that long (although some strains work better than others) unless using lab techniques, but if it's still working then keep going! Are you using slurry, overbuilt starters, slants, or isotonic salt storage?

I used to: 1. transfer to secondary when fermentation noticeably slowed down, but for the last couple years, only do that for lagers. 2. collected yeast slurry from primary 3. brewed at about 3 times a month, and used yeast nutrient.
Now I: 1. keep my ales in primary fermentor for 14 days (21 days for some Belgians) 2. harvest slurry from fermentor after 14 days, (and yes getting a mix of flocculant and less flocculant yeast), 3. still use yeast nutrient, but don't brew as often which doesn't keep the yeast as fresh and healthy.

I always tried to keep the slurry clean and container clean and sanitized. but some jars of slurry, given enough dormant time, will develop mold on top. Some though, never did. I try to feed fresh wort to slurries that I store longer between uses. My methods aren't perfect, but for the most part, they worked for me for quite a while.