Smoke-ish taste from 833?

[Smellyglove]

I recently made three batches with 833. They all had this subdued smoked taste to them. If you could translate the flavor into the smell from a fireplace.

I've been thinking about if there's anything in my setup, but I don't think it is. I've only had this experience with 833. Have also made lagers with 830 and 3470 without that smokey-thing. I heard from another local homebrewer that he also has gotten a smoked taste from his 833 beers.

I do traditional cold fermentations, none of that "quick-lagering" thing or warm lager fermentations, so there's nothing much to hide anything which is off behind.

Anyone else with this experience?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Smoky suggests a phenol like guaiacol, which if there's no smoke in your grist is probably coming from a slight bacterial infection - it could be that the 833 is producing a metabolite which is either encouraging the bacteria or providing a substrate for the bacteria to make the guaiacol with. So sanitation would be the first thing to look at.

It also seems to be one of those flavours where people's sensitivity varies dramatically, so that may be something else to consider when you're comparing notes with other people.

 

[Smellyglove]

Smoky suggests a phenol like guaiacol, which if there's no smoke in your grist is probably coming from a slight bacterial infection - it could be that the 833 is producing a metabolite which is either encouraging the bacteria or providing a substrate for the bacteria to make the guaiacol with. So sanitation would be the first thing to look at.

It also seems to be one of those flavours where people's sensitivity varies dramatically, so that may be something else to consider when you're comparing notes with other people.

Right. Thanks. It's just a small tiny hint of it, which does not get any worse over time. And I feel that the hint of it was pretty equal in all the batches. But it's weird if it's bugs. I've made lagers with other yeasts between the 833s, and none of them had any of that. Or any other beers for that sake.

In a perfect world I'd get my hands on some fresh german light lagers from Ayinger, but I cant.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

But it's weird if it's bugs. I've made lagers with other yeasts between the 833s, and none of them had any of that. Or any other beers for that sake.

As I say - 833 could be supplying a specific substrate as food, or just generally encouraging the bugs. For instance, 4-vinyl guaiacol is the clove in wheat beers, I don't know if 833 is related to the wheat beer yeasts but it could share some common metabolism with them that pushes its output in that direction.

 

[Smellyglove]

As I say - 833 could be supplying a specific substrate as food, or just generally encouraging the bugs. For instance, 4-vinyl guaiacol is the clove in wheat beers, I don't know if 833 is related to the wheat beer yeasts but it could share some common metabolism with them that pushes its output in that direction.

Oh right. I get you.

 

[TheMadKing]

I use 833 almost exclusively for my german lagers and it's always clean for me, I've never noticed anything smokey.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I use 833 almost exclusively for my german lagers and it's always clean for me, I've never noticed anything smokey.

As I said, there seems to be a smoky flavour that some people can taste and some can't. So it could be just a personal perception thing - or it could be something different actuallly happening in the beer, like how wheat beers go more 4-vinyl guaiacol-y at low temperatures.

Thinking across to what makes wheat beer more clovey - underpitching and underaerating will stress yeast and enhance those flavours, so they might be happening here?

 

[Smellyglove]

As I said, there seems to be a smoky flavour that some people can taste and some can't. So it could be just a personal perception thing - or it could be something different actuallly happening in the beer, like how wheat beers go more 4-vinyl guaiacol-y at low temperatures.

Thinking across to what makes wheat beer more clovey - underpitching and underaerating will stress yeast and enhance those flavours, so they might be happening here?

I actually don't agree 100% with the going lower in temp with wheat beers makes them more clovey. I've been brewing a lot with 380 the last 10 months (14 batches). I haven't noticed more or less of the clove depending on temperature. I rather feel that it's masked by isoamyl acetate, and other esters, when going higher in fermtemp, and/or doing a Herrmann-verfahren. To me it seems like the clove/phenols (at least from 380) are somewhat constant, but they might come trough more, or less, depending on the amount of esters. 4VG is btw the precursor to the phenols which gives the clove, I assume you know this but just to get the terms straight

Anyhow. for my lagers, as I do a cold fermentation (no D-rest or so, since it's not needed) I pitch a healthy dose of yeast, always from a starter, targeting 2-2.5million cells pr plato/ml (depending on OG), as opposed to the traditional 1.5million plato/ml. This is "calculated" with kai troesters calculation, so It's not 100% accurate since I don't have a microscope.

I also aereate with pure oxygen through a 0.5 micron stone and ferment in STC1000+ controlled fridges at 8C. Then I transfer to keg, spund it, and lower the temp gradually.

However, all my lagerfermentations seem to have been healthy, first generations are of course slower, but all inn all, I'm happy with my procedure. It will always get better over time, but this is how I normally do it pr now. For Doppelbocks I sometimes add speise, then spund.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Scorching on element/pot/? Hard boil with more hops (vegetal), high pH?

 

[Smellyglove]

Scorching on element/pot/? Hard boil with more hops (vegetal), high pH?

Nope, checked that too. Scorching was the first thing I looked into. Induction, thick bottomed belgian kettle. Gentle boil, Magnum for bittering, pH adjusted with phosphoric acid, and a small amount of calcium-ions.

 

[Smellyglove]

I really do believe it's the yeast. I must be doing something wrong with it. Can it be that I'm spinning it on the stirrer as "usual", meaning at room-temp?. Maybe it develops an off-flavour at those temps which is carried over to my batch?

 

[Smellyglove]

I use 833 almost exclusively for my german lagers and it's always clean for me, I've never noticed anything smokey.

How do you ferment it?

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I don't think it would be as easy to pick up if I did a "quick-lager"-technique since there's a lot of things going on there on a homebrew/unpressurized setting. Not implying that you do it that way, it was just a thought.

 

[TheMadKing]

How do you ferment it?

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I don't think it would be as easy to pick up with a "quick-lager"-technique since there's a lot of things going on there on a homebrew/unpressurized setting. Not implying that you do it that way, it was just a thought.

I ferment it cool at 50F for ~10 days until nearing terminal gravity, ramp 5 degrees per day for my DRest at 70F, cold crash and fine, rack to a keg and lager in the 30's for 2-3 weeks.

Not really a quick lager but faster than a "traditional" lager schedule, with careful temp control

 

[TheMadKing]

I really do believe it's the yeast. I must be doing something wrong with it. Can it be that I'm spinning it on the stirrer as "usual", meaning at room-temp?. Maybe it develops an off-flavour at those temps which is carried over to my batch?

Off flavors from your yeast are always either an issue with the manufacturing process (unlikely), or an issue with your handling that's stressing them somehow.

Can you describe your handling process from purchase to pitch? Please include storage temps, starter volumes, dates of manufacture, purchase, and pitch, #of cells pitched, gravity of wort, etc if you can

 

[Smellyglove]

Off flavors from your yeast are always either an issue with the manufacturing process (unlikely), or an issue with your handling that's stressing them somehow.

Can you describe your handling process from purchase to pitch? Please include storage temps, starter volumes, dates of manufacture, purchase, and pitch, #of cells pitched, gravity of wort, etc if you can

I work at the HBS I get the yeast from, so I know the yeast has been stored in a fridge from the package arrives at the door from White Labs, until I walk out the door with it. I keep it in a 4C fridge.

Yeast starters are pitched with about a minimum of 20million cells/ml. Spun on a stir plate in "room temp".

Let it sit for maybe 12-18 hrs after I shut down the stir plate, before going into the fridge to let the yeast build up lipids and stuff before it gets to cold for them.

the yeast is most often pretty fresh, but not after expiry date.

Read a few posts further up about my inoculation rate I use for my beers. Wort gravity is about 1.050 for the first two generations, then 1.075-ish for the third generation which is the Doppelbock. But I don't think I've noticed it in my doppelbock since it's pretty heavy taste-wise.

 

[TheMadKing]

I work at the HBS I get the yeast from, so I know the yeast has been stored in a fridge from the package arrives at the door from White Labs, until I walk out the door with it. I keep it in a 4C fridge.

Yeast starters are pitched with about a minimum of 20million cells/ml. Spun on a stir plate in "room temp".

Let it sit for maybe 12-18 hrs after I shut down the stir plate, before going into the fridge to let the yeast build up lipids and stuff before it gets to cold for them.

the yeast is most often pretty fresh, but not after expiry date.

Read a few posts further up about my inoculation rate I use for my beers. Wort gravity is about 1.050 for the first two generations, then 1.075-ish for the third generation which is the Doppelbock. But I don't think I've noticed it in my doppelbock since it's pretty heavy taste-wise.

Your inoculation rate is incredibly high unless that's a typo. Typical lager rates are 1.5 million - 4 million cells/mL so you might be overpitching to the point of experiencing autolysis earlier than usual.

The yeast build up lipids while metabolizing oxygen mostly during the lag phase before anaerobic fermentation begins, so if you're resting them after you turn off the stir plate you are probably just letting them stew in their own juices longer than necessary.

Not claiming to be a serious expert on yeast but I'm married to a microbiologist and I stayed at a holiday inn last night (the first part is true)

 

[Smellyglove]

Your inoculation rate is incredibly high unless that's a typo. Typical lager rates are 1.5 million - 4 million cells/mL so you might be overpitching to the point of experiencing autolysis earlier than usual.

The yeast build up lipids while metabolizing oxygen mostly during the lag phase before anaerobic fermentation begins, so if you're resting them after you turn off the stir plate you are probably just letting them stew in their own juices longer than necessary.

Not claiming to be a serious expert on yeast but I'm married to a microbiologist and I stayed at a holiday inn last night (the first part is true)

This is for the starters. Not the actual pitch into the wort which will become beer.

For the main beer I target 2-2.5million/ml/plato.

The yeast builds up their reserves before dormancy at the end of a fermentation cycle. But also as you say, it's also the first thing they do when being pitched into a wort, but I'm talking about their reserves before going dormant.

 

[TheMadKing]

This is for the starters. Not the actual pitch into the wort which will become beer.

For the main beer I target 2-2.5million/ml/plato.

The yeast builds up their reserves before dormancy at the end of a fermentation cycle. But also as you say, it's also the first thing they do when being pitched into a wort, but I'm talking about their reserves before going dormant.

Ah gotcha, sorry I misread that

That theory doesn't exactly pass the sniff-test since the yeast don't know that you're about to plop them in the fridge. I've never heard of anyone else resting their starters after the stir plate, and there's no reason to think that the stir plate would have any effect on their metabolism other than providing better gas exchange.

Maybe try eliminating this step and see if it helps? what do you have to lose

 

[Smellyglove]

Ah gotcha, sorry I misread that

That theory doesn't exactly pass the sniff-test since the yeast don't know that you're about to plop them in the fridge. I've never heard of anyone else resting their starters after the stir plate, and there's no reason to think that the stir plate would have any effect on their metabolism other than providing better gas exchange.

Maybe try eliminating this step and see if it helps? what do you have to lose

It's a John Palmer thing. He's mentioned it in podcasts and it's also in the latest How To Brew.

It's not that they "know" I'm gonna put them in the fridge, but it's that before they flocculate, and go dormant, they build up their reserves to survive dormancy. If you toss them into the fridge to early, you're forcing them to flocculate and to go dormant, so they might not had time to build up their reserves. It's like the bear eating a lot of stuff before going to sleep for several months, but if you sedate it and carry it over to its cave and tuck it in before its stomach is full it will feel like **** when it wakes up again

Anyhow. I don't keep starters for a very long time. Well, some I do actually, but I haven't with this 833 yet.

 

[TheMadKing]

It's a John Palmer thing. He's mentioned it in podcasts and it's also in the latest How To Brew.

It's not that they "know" I'm gonna put them in the fridge, but it's that before they flocculate, and go dormant, they build up their reserves to survive dormancy. If you toss them into the fridge to early, you're forcing them to flocculate and to go dormant, so they might not had time to build up their reserves. It's like the bear eating a lot of stuff before going to sleep for several months, but if you sedate it and carry it over to its cave and tuck it in, before it's stomach is full it will feel like **** when it wakes up again

Anyhow. I don't keep starters for a very long time. Well, some I do actually, but I haven't with this 833 yet.

Well I'm not going to argue with John Palmer.

I'm fresh out of ideas.

 

[cladinshadows]

That is my favorite lager strain and I get a low level burnt match sort of smokeyness before lagering. Could it be a whiff of sulfur that you're getting?

 

[Smellyglove]

That is my favorite lager strain and I get a low level burnt match sort of smokeyness before lagering. Could it be a whiff of sulfur that you're getting?

I wouldn't call it sulfur. It's more of a fireplace-y thing. If that's a thing. Yea, smokiness.