I still think we're not quite on the same page yet about the distinction between step/ramp mashing and protein rests. I'll try to clear this up best I can.
I'm not annoyed. Just confused I guess. I considered many of the folks on HBT to be pretty knowledgeable. Not to mention BYO recipes and articles and folks like Denny, Kai, Marshall and others. Even Godot's link above about Marshall's comparison between single and multi-step mashes seems to be at odds here. His multi-step was essentially a ramp up that started at 113F and spent close to an hour in protein rest territory while taking 4 hours to ramp up to mash out. His results seemed to be pretty good.
I hear ya, but anybody who knows what they're talking about would hopefully not recommend a protein rest with fully modified malts. Did any of those sources specify modified malt? If not, and they are considered credible, perhaps they were using under-modified malt (
which is available by the way). They are absolutely right about step/ramp mashing for saccharification rests, however (more on this later). Also, I don't trust anything from "exbeeriments" as
scientific data. Even when working out statistical significance of the evaluation step, it does not legitimately draw any scientific conclusions. It's interesting and fun to read about, but I trust peer reviewed scientific data and scientific principles far more than that. The consensus within the brewing science community is pretty clear on this issue; protein rests with fully modified malt are likely to be detrimental to the finished product. I'm not the only brewer aware of this fact, just ask John Palmer, from
How to Brew:
How to Brew said:
"Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified."
This is also iterated in an article from BYO Magazine called
The Science of Step Mashing:
BYO said:
"The degree to which gum and protein degradation has progressed is called modification. These days, most malts are fully modified. The glucans and proteins are degraded to a point that brewers only need to convert the starches in the grain* to make good quality wort. Undermodified malts are those in which modification has stopped short, essentially leaving the brewer to complete those tasks in the brewhouse. If a malt is undermodified, it will clearly say so in the name. For example, Briess makes a malt called Less Modified Pilsner Malt. Conversely, if a malt name does not mention its level of modification, it’s fully modified.
...
Unless you have a very good reason — for example, if you know you have a high-protein malt on your hands — avoiding a rest in the 113–128 °F (45–53 °C) range is probably prudent as you will potentially avoid any problems with head retention."
*Note that this is not limited to single infusion mashing. I do multi-saccharification step mashing all the time
I'm honestly not trying to be difficult or dense. I'm just trying to see what kind of results I can get with a different process.
Absolutely. I don't think you're being difficult at all. For some reason, I've taken interest in you and your issue here. Perhaps because I was fortunate enough to have been offered mentorships from professionals starting over a decade ago that helped get me to where I am today, and I like to pay it forward. Or the fact that in the past I've also tried various methods and tested principles such as the one you're interested in and can verify the claims I'm advocating here.
The sources I've read seem to be knowleable people (see above) who suggest that the ramp up can yield a more fermentable wort and possibly bring out some different characteristics from the grains
Yes, that is true! I do step mashes for all my lagers (Pilsner, Helles, Märzen, etc.), hybrid ales (Kölsch, Alt, Cream Ale, etc.) and even my Irish Stout. But the important distinction here is that since I'm using latest generation modified malts (as likely are you), I dough-in at 140F to skip the protein rests, then step mash for multiple saccharification rests. I get the increased extract efficiency, better attenuation, more complex mouthfeel, and (IMO) better overall product (some can't tell much of a difference, some can). Like I've said before, by all means, do a step or ramp mash, just don't do a protein rest. Are you guaranteed to ruin the beer if you do? No, not necessarily. You're playing the odds, though. Results will vary from different maltsters and even different lot numbers from the same maltster, but you have to ask yourself "should I?" rather than "can I?"
I'm willing to give it a try. If I end up with headless, thin dreck, I will know they were wrong. Or they may be right. Or it may not matter. Either way, I'll have learned something and I will tuck that in my book of knowledge. As much as I love beer, it's still just beer and the world will go on even if I screw up.
That's part of what makes homebrewing so attractive; you can do whatever you want. You don't have customers, accountants, investors, or distributors to answer to. If you try it and like it, keep doing it. If you feel like it could be better, try something else. I strongly encourage step/ramp mashing for appropriate styles, or any style for that matter. It won't be as noticeable in something like an IPA or RIS, but if you're like me and many others, you'll notice it in something like a Pilsner or Kölsch. Here are some of my recommend examples (which can vary a tad depending on style):
For fully modified Pilsner malts: 140F --> 150F --> 158F --> mashout (168F)
For under-modified, floor malted Pils malts: 131F --> 145F --> 158F --> mashout (168F)
And believe me; these aren't just pulled from some brief Googling - I've been doing this for years.
Best of luck!
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