Should I Dump This Trub Before Pitching

[kiblerjd]

I looked around quite a bit before posting this and couldn't find any direct threads related to this question, more just some that mentioned it.

Very briefly, i'm an AG brewer and did a 10 gallon batch of an IPA a few weeks ago. At the end of my boil I do a whirlpool in the kettle, let everything settle out, then I pump from the kettle through a counter flow wort chiller into the fermenter.

The attached picture shows what my fermenters look like about 20 minutes after settling out on the wall. No yeast is pitched yet. My question is, since I have a conical type fermenter should I take the 5 minutes to dump this trub off before fermentation begins. I'm assuming its a combination of hot/cold break.

I have never dumped it off, and I think my beer turns out really well, so i'm wondering if it is really worth the effort. I'm wondering if this is just standard practice for people with conical fermenters before they pitch the yeast and i'm not on the bandwagon yet.

 

[IslandLizard]

It looks so easy to just drain it off. I would rather do it sooner, before fermentation, than later. Easier to harvest the yeast too.

 

[shaff1101]

what did you make those fermentors out of?

 

[zeekage]

Looks like they are these puppies: http://vvessel.com/

 

[hercher]

Yes, I would pull that trub out. It doesn't take any (or much) effort, and will make your beer even better.

 

[Koffie]

Since you have 2 of them, dump one and keep one. After it's finished, taste the difference

 

[cliffy]

ya what are those containers? and how big are they? cant tell by the photo

 

[mjdonnelly68]

I use a Blichmann Fermenator and make it a practice to dump the cold break every batch. Has always worked for me.

Six to twelve hours after pitching I pull a pint-full out and ditch it. About a week later, I pull off a mason jar of yeast slurry for reuse.

 

[psymonkey]

Since you have 2 of them, dump one and keep one. After it's finished, taste the difference

Perfect advice!

 

[RM-MN]

I use a Blichmann Fermenator and make it a practice to dump the cold break every batch. Has always worked for me.

Six to twelve hours after pitching I pull a pint-full out and ditch it. About a week later, I pull off a mason jar of yeast slurry for reuse.

Since I don't have a Blichmann Fermentor, I don't get to dump the cold break. Has always worked for me.

 

[MorrisBrewingCo]

$189 whew but if someone could explain to me the benefits of this and other conical fermenters I could be tempted to splurge

 

[Schol-R-LEA]

The main advantages are
a) being able to remove the cold break before pitching,
b) being able to draw off yeast samples for easy yeast propagation,
c) being able to drain the yeast cake off for long-term secondary fermentation and clarifying without needing a separate secondary fermenter (secondary fermentation will take place regardless of whether you use a secondary fermenter)

All of these things can be done with a regular carboy or bucket fermenter, just not as easily or effectively, and with a conical, you can do them with a single vessel without risking exposure to air.

 

[Publius]

It looks so easy to just drain it off. I would rather do it sooner, before fermentation, than later. Easier to harvest the yeast too.

I know this is kinda the whole point of a conical so I'm obviously not correct in what im about to say, but when I visualize someone opening the valve on one of these things, it just seems like the wort/beer would sort of suck down through your trub/yeast (sort of a channeling action similar to what we talk about with fly sparging) and you would lose a ton of beer along with the solids. Why doesn't this happen?

 

[Hello]

I too would like to know how the trub can leave without losing wort.
I've been interested in these types of fermenters.

 

[sha0056]

Since you have 2 of them, dump one and keep one. After it's finished, taste the difference

+1. let us know if there is any difference

 

[fearwig]

Looks like they are these puppies: http://vvessel.com/

Those look sick awesome. And close to $200 each. Why can't someone mass produce them for $30? All I want is some shaped plastic... *shakes fist*

I am going to start hacking up some better bottles one of these days.

 

[fearwig]

I know this is kinda the whole point of a conical so I'm obviously not correct in what im about to say, but when I visualize someone opening the valve on one of these things, it just seems like the wort/beer would sort of suck down through your trub/yeast (sort of a channeling action similar to what we talk about with fly sparging) and you would lose a ton of beer along with the solids. Why doesn't this happen?

Settled trub's pretty gummy, I don't see why that would happen as long as there's not a big lip around the spigot (it looks like an even slope). The downside is that you would lose some wort suspended in the trub if it's not really compacted. If I were OP I'd pitch now (while it's fresh) and then drain the trub in a day or two while the yeast is still in suspension/krausen but the trub has had a chance to compact. Guess I'm a wort miser.

 

[jflongo]

Those look sick awesome. And close to $200 each. Why can't someone mass produce them for $30? All I want is some shaped plastic... *shakes fist*

I am going to start hacking up some better bottles one of these days.

Just the parts alone would be over $30

If you want a DIY for a 15 Gallon Conical for a little over $200, here you go.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/super-simple-15g-plastic-conical-276378/

 

[VladOfTrub]

Trub contains phenols and sulpher by products. Sometime ago, someone said that trub helps yeast. The person is right, but in the wrong way. Yeast will feed on trub when wort lacks extract, nutrients and minerals. With Lager during the end of the phase, yeast will work on the trub, instead of on the low extract levels in the beer. The yeast cover absorbs flavors from the trub and imparts the flavors into the beer. From boiler to belly in 4 weeks or in high octane high hopped beer, the flavors are masked. Dump the trub, aerate and toss in the yeast. Leaving fermented wort on trub with yeast cake for an extended period is pointless. Back in the early 80s a company built a device that clamped onto the neck of a carboy. The device had a valve for dumping trub, a racking valve and a tube for a blowoff. The company had a carrier that the carboy would fit in and allow it to be turned neck end down. When Charlie Poopazian wrote RDWHAHB the company went out of business.

 

[fearwig]

Just the parts alone would be over $30

If you want a DIY for a 15 Gallon Conical for a little over $200, here you go.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/super-simple-15g-plastic-conical-276378/

The parts and bits aren't the point (and they're mostly available at Home Depot), I just want the shape! You can rig the rest, you can't make a plastic vessel like that. But to press HDPE into a bulb with a narrowing spout--I mean if you have even moderate scale economies you're talking about a manufacturing cost per unit probably well under $10. I'm sure the vessels above cost the manufacturer a lot more to make, but there's no sensible reason for it in my book. Companies make food safe 5gal buckets for pennies, this would just be another mold.

Anyway, pipe dreams aside, you could DIY a conical out of better bottles for under $40, probably less if you're willing to settle with 5-gallon volume (4gal batches) and you get a cheap source on standard 5gal water bottles. I don't think I want a 15-gallon anything.

 

[zeekage]

The parts and bits aren't the point (and they're mostly available at Home Depot), I just want the shape! You can rig the rest, you can't make a plastic vessel like that. But to press HDPE into a bulb with a narrowing spout--I mean if you have even moderate scale economies you're talking about a manufacturing cost per unit probably well under $10. I'm sure the vessels above cost the manufacturer a lot more to make, but there's no sensible reason for it in my book. Companies make food safe 5gal buckets for pennies, this would just be another mold.

Anyway, pipe dreams aside, you could DIY a conical out of better bottles for under $40, probably less if you're willing to settle with 5-gallon volume (4gal batches) and you get a cheap source on standard 5gal water bottles. I don't think I want a 15-gallon anything.

This has been tried and consensus is it doesn't work. I believe you need 60 degree angles for the slope of the cone or the trub will stick to the sides of the vessel instead of sliding out. Then indeed you'll have what other people here have mentioned, and will lose lots of wort as it channels through the trub. You can look up the Fermentap conical valve kit. It was a commercial product to convert a carboy into a conical and it never really worked.

 

[Arrheinous]

The parts and bits aren't the point (and they're mostly available at Home Depot), I just want the shape! You can rig the rest, you can't make a plastic vessel like that. But to press HDPE into a bulb with a narrowing spout--I mean if you have even moderate scale economies you're talking about a manufacturing cost per unit probably well under $10. I'm sure the vessels above cost the manufacturer a lot more to make, but there's no sensible reason for it in my book. Companies make food safe 5gal buckets for pennies, this would just be another mold.

Anyway, pipe dreams aside, you could DIY a conical out of better bottles for under $40, probably less if you're willing to settle with 5-gallon volume (4gal batches) and you get a cheap source on standard 5gal water bottles. I don't think I want a 15-gallon anything.

What if someone made a two-piece mold, saved up enough milk jugs, melted them down, and cast a conical fermenter?

It'd probably need to have the body as one piece with a bucket-like lid to make the fabrication as simple (fool-proof) as possible. At that rate it might be possible to heat the bottom of food-grade buckets to the point at which they are malleable enough to push into a conical shape. Then you get the pre-existing lid, the ability to hang it by the handle, and it'll be one solid piece.

After this, cut out the bottom part carefully and install a ball-valve with some o-rings to maintain the seal.

 

[fearwig]

I have never tried to recycle my own plastic. I suspect it would probably be a little insane with temperature control and stuff--you don't want melty plastic taste in your beer, much less carcinogens.

If the carboy neck slope is really too small I guess your best bet might be finding another source of HDPE or modifying food safe HDPE buckets with food safe glue and epoxy, sealing with silicone. I can't imagine it would be easy, though. I have looked for food safe plastic hoppers, and I haven't found one for anything approaching a reasonable price. Once you get into that territory you're probably better off shelling out for the designer item, like OP did (which I don't judge! But my wife would not let me spend $200 on a single fermenter, even if I were inclined).

 

[donshizzles]

So nobody has answered the question yet......how much wort would be lost when trying to dump the trub due to channeling? Or is the angle of these things enough that the heavier trub will slide out easily? I'll spring for 2 of these if they work well because I am thoroughly sick of the hassle of a glass carboy and a useless autosiphon.

 

[fearwig]

This has been tried and consensus is it doesn't work. I believe you need 60 degree angles for the slope of the cone or the trub will stick to the sides of the vessel instead of sliding out. Then indeed you'll have what other people here have mentioned, and will lose lots of wort as it channels through the trub. You can look up the Fermentap conical valve kit. It was a commercial product to convert a carboy into a conical and it never really worked.

That's a heck of a shame, if so. I can't help but think you could reduce that issue by A) using a valve as close to the whole diameter of the carboy neck as possible and B) sucking the trub out as soon as it fills the bottom of the neck.

You could probably also extend the neck with a PVC pipe (even multiple decreasing pipes) to serve as a trub reservoir and eliminate that concern entirely.

But uh *cough* guess I'll stop hijacking this thread now. Hope OP's concern was fully addressed before I got to thinking about better bottle conicals.

 

[jflongo]

The parts and bits aren't the point (and they're mostly available at Home Depot), I just want the shape! You can rig the rest, you can't make a plastic vessel like that. But to press HDPE into a bulb with a narrowing spout--I mean if you have even moderate scale economies you're talking about a manufacturing cost per unit probably well under $10. I'm sure the vessels above cost the manufacturer a lot more to make, but there's no sensible reason for it in my book. Companies make food safe 5gal buckets for pennies, this would just be another mold.

Anyway, pipe dreams aside, you could DIY a conical out of better bottles for under $40, probably less if you're willing to settle with 5-gallon volume (4gal batches) and you get a cheap source on standard 5gal water bottles. I don't think I want a 15-gallon anything.

A better bottle would not work well, since the top of it is not very sloped.

 

[jcoxen]

Isn't there a company that makes a gizmo that goes on top of a 5 gallon bucket? You clamp it on, invert the whole apparatus and your bucket becomes a conical. I've seen them advertised somewhere.

Anybody know what I'm talking about? Has anybody tried them? If so, how well do they work?

 

[ryanhope]

Since I don't have a Blichmann Fermentor, I don't get to dump the cold break. Has always worked for me.

Since I don't have a Blichmann Fermentor either, I let my chilled wort settle in a bucket over night to let the break material settle out. I then rack off the clear wort into my fermentor. Since I started doing this the yeast I get out is super clean.

 

[jflongo]

I use a double filtration system, false bottom and a SS ring underneath that in my boil kettle. That does a great job, leaving the majority of the trub behind.

Now back to the original question, if you just open your valve half way for a short period of time, you could probably get a good amount of the trub out, just keep it open until you see a little beer come out and then close it. The beer is lighter than the trub, so you should be fine to try this.

 

[baflint]

Hey guys don't mean to intrude on someone else's post but I couldn't help and see everyone asking questions about the fermenters...I have quite a few available if anybodys interested pm me. Same as pictureed here 5 gallons. Sorry for the intrusion....cheers

 

[fearwig]

I use a double filtration system, false bottom and a SS ring underneath that in my boil kettle. That does a great job, leaving the majority of the trub behind.

Yeah, even the simplest filtration is really effective for trub reduction. I use a cheapo 5um singed poly filter bag from Amazon (less than $8). I let my kettle chill (more or less) in a tub of cold tap and then I pour the works through the bag (steam sterilized) into the fermenter. By the time you pour the bottom of the barrel trub through it clogs the bag up pretty well, but you can give it a (clean hands) squeeze. I used to think that would be a recipe for bugs, but you're about to pitch and it seems to help aeration anyway.

I've started using that bag in racking to my bottling bucket to reclaim wort from trub and dry hops (wort thieving bastards). Very nice (just gotta do it carefully, with the bottom of the bag dipping in the water to lessen aeration).

All that said, if I could just pour that crap into the fermenter, and just turn a little lever to drop the trub, I'd be all over that, even if I had to do it a couple of times before it was all gone. Filtration is good, it just takes a little work to keep it clean.

 

[kiblerjd]

sorry it took me so long to respond. as one person mentioned these are v-vessels and they are amazing. northern brewer sells them but i bought them a long long time ago. they hole about 7 gallons i believe but the level in the pics is 5.5 gallons.

as for dumping out the valve i do it all the time and get zero channeling. i usually leave the ball off for primary fermentation then i dump all the stuff through the valve and attach the ball during secondary. works great and i would recommend one of these to anyone. my question about dumping the trub was really geared around the fact that would be incredibly easy to do. so i was curious if it would make better beer or if it was a waste of time.

 

[Trippel-A]

I think my favorite thing about these vessels is that they're up off the floor. SWMBO would like that, too.

 

[donshizzles]

My biggest concern with these is temperature regulation. So obviously these are mounted permanently on a wall......if you don't have an area with relatively constant temps (lets say for ale fermentation), how to you have any control over temperature with these? What if you are fermenting a lager? Unless you have a walk-in fridge it seems these are not suitable for lagering.

 

[jflongo]

My biggest concern with these is temperature regulation. So obviously these are mounted permanently on a wall......if you don't have an area with relatively constant temps (lets say for ale fermentation), how to you have any control over temperature with these? What if you are fermenting a lager? Unless you have a walk-in fridge it seems these are not suitable for lagering.

Not all of us brew Lagers. I have yet to even brew a lager, even though I have about 10 all grains under my belt. Until I have a dedicated temp control fridge, I will never attempt a lager. So his setup could handle pale ales, ipa's, stouts, etc, but I'm sure Lagering is out.

 

[Cider123]

I like the fact that you can rack to your keg without the spluttering of oxygen in the beginning of the siphoning process.

Can I ask two questions? Is this the same safe plastic that is in better bottles?
How can you easily check FG's without having to dump out your yeast cake?

 

[gjsumm]

I own a V vessel and have for about 3 years I enjoy it . I made a stand for mine. I will dump mine after about a week only problem is it will get compacted on the bottom then it is a trick trying to open the valve and not make a mess while you loosen up the trub with a sanitized spoon.I have never had a problem with off taste. When I lager I use glass carboys.

 

[gjsumm]

So nobody has answered the question yet......how much wort would be lost when trying to dump the trub due to channeling? Or is the angle of these things enough that the heavier trub will slide out easily? I'll spring for 2 of these if they work well because I am thoroughly sick of the hassle of a glass carboy and a useless autosiphon.

It is not much maybe a pint at the most if you are careful.

 

[gjsumm]

My biggest concern with these is temperature regulation. So obviously these are mounted permanently on a wall......if you don't have an area with relatively constant temps (lets say for ale fermentation), how to you have any control over temperature with these? What if you are fermenting a lager? Unless you have a walk-in fridge it seems these are not suitable for lagering.

I built a stand for mine out of wood so I move mine around here is a picAlso the ball on the bottom makes it easy to harvest yeast.

 

[kjfarwell]

very nice...I would love to get a couple of these but a bigger pot first