Should i delay brew day to make a starter?

[bigskygreg]

I was planning on brewing tonight (8 hours from now), but didn't get around to making a starter last night. If I don't brew tonight, I won't be able to do a starter for about a week (will be out of town). I really wanted to brew my stout tonight (og = 1.053). Yeast is wyeast 1098 and less than 30 days old).

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Ryush806]

You will make better beer with a proper starter; however, you will probably make a fine beer just pitching the yeast pack. Or if you have a LHBS you could run there and get some dry yeast instead so that you wouldn't need a starter.

 

[Moose1231]

How come dry yeast won't need a starter? I am always wondering. I normally do a starter only for big OG or when I use harvested yeast.

 

[TyTanium]

Pull off a few oz of your first runnings, bring to a boil for a few mins, then chill quick in a mason jar dropped into ice water. Add that to the yeast to at least give them an hours head start.

 

[m3n00b]

How come dry yeast won't need a starter? I am always wondering. I normally do a starter only for big OG or when I use harvested yeast.

Dry yeasts usually have twice the number of viable cells. Most beer only needs around 200 mil to start a healthy fermentation. Obvoiusly huge barley wines and ris can require more.

 

[kombat]

If you have any relatively young (< 2 weeks) jars of the yeast in the fridge (i.e., washed from previous batches), I'd slowly warm the jar to room temperature, decant, swirl, and direct pitch. But if it's just a vial or smack pack, I'd put it off until you can do a proper starter.

 

[kombat]

Most beer only needs around 200 mil to start a healthy fermentation.

Of course, that should be billion, not million.

The formula for a healthy yeast pitch for ales is 4 billion * points of original gravity * number of 5 gallon batches.

So for a single 5 gallon batch of 1.040 ale, you'd need 200 billion cells, or about a 1 liter starter cultured from a single smack pack or vial. Double that for lagers.

 

[bigskygreg]

Would it make any sense to do a starter now? It would be 10 hours till pitch? It's a smack pack.

Thanks for the quick responses!

 

[kombat]

No, that's too short. Even with a stir plate, I wouldn't run a starter for any less than 18 hours. You need to let them finish their cycle to get the full number of cells.

I typically run my starters for at least 24 hours on the stir plate, then give them 48-72 hours to cold crash, then decant, warm to room temperature, and pitch.

 

[JSager89]

If your doing an ale, your probably fine. I've done it more then a few times. If you are going for a lager, you will want a starter. I just cracked an Oktoberfest with a serious green Apple taste (can't remember the chem name if the top of my head), which is almost completely for to under pitching

 

[k_mcarthur]

I didn't do any starters my whole first year of brewing, still made fine beer then. If time is the main constraint I would just pitch the smack pack, just expect delayed start to fermentation but since you'll be out of town then it won't really matter. I usually don't brew anymore if I don't have my starter ready, but in this case I'd probably just go ahead and brew. Dry yeast is a good idea, no starter needed, but if you go to the LHBS just pick up another smack pack. Pitching two packs is same as a starter.

 

[JSager89]

If your doing an ale, your probably fine. I've done it more then a few times. If you are going for a lager, you will want a starter. I just cracked an Oktoberfest with a serious green Apple taste (can't remember the chem name if the top of my head), which is almost completely for to under pitching

And I just reread and saw you were doing a stout. Should be fine (sorry bout the tangent).

 

[finsfan]

i normally always do a started but if your pipeline is low and you wanna get more beer going before you leave, just pitch it. I did that for my first 5-10 batches and they all came out great. actually, my hefeweizen was the best beer iv made and it was from a direct pitch smack pack. with a smack pack you atleast get some head start and make sure your yeast is healthy. have you smacked your pack yet? i always did atleast 4 hours before pitching when i didnt do starters. also, theres really no need for a starter if you dont have a stirplate IMO. ive done them without and its terrible

 

[Jaysus]

Just pitch the smack pack, you'll be fine.

 

[finsfan]

^ agreed, this is the short version of my answer haha

 

[kombat]

also, theres really no need for a starter if you dont have a stirplate IMO.

Um - what?

Explain?

Stir plates are nice, and increase cell growth and decrease the time, but starters are still valuable even without them. Starters grow the cell colony to the desired count. A stir plate speeds that up and improves the efficiency (i.e., a smaller starter required to get the same count), but it's incorrect to say it's pointless to do a starter unless you have a stir plate.

 

[bigskygreg]

Thanks guys. I think I will press my luck and direct pitch my smack pack. Next time I'll be sure to make the starter like always. I was lazy and wasn't 100% sure I was going to brew. Next time I'll remember that if I make the starter, then don't brew, I can always cold crash for a few days.

Thanks again!

 

[m3n00b]

Yes I meant billion

 

[bigskygreg]

I do use a stir plate and have always done a starter with liquid yeast. I don't wash my yeast or repitch. I don't have enough experience to know how different my results will be with or without starter. I have been brewing every time I have the chance. Tonight I have the chance.

I do have some safale 05 on hand that I could use instead of the wyeast 1098 if that would be better? The recipe calls for 1098. It's the buffalo sweat stout from NB.

 

[austinb]

I you pitch the smack pack you will be under pitching. That said, lots of people just pitch the smack packs an their beer usually turns out just fine.

If you want to make sure you get a good fermentation which reduces the chance of off flavors then I would suggest a properly rehydrated dry yeast because one pack when properly rehydrated should yield enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch.

The us-05 you have should make a good beer and i think it would be better to pitch that than the smack pack but it is an American ale yeast while the 1098 is an English ale yeast which imparts a slightly different flavor sometimes described as bready. If you can make it to the brew shop then I would recommend either S-04 or Nottingham as a better substitute for 1098.

 

[finsfan]

Um - what?

Explain?

Stir plates are nice, and increase cell growth and decrease the time, but starters are still valuable even without them. Starters grow the cell colony to the desired count. A stir plate speeds that up and improves the efficiency (i.e., a smaller starter required to get the same count), but it's incorrect to say it's pointless to do a starter unless you have a stir plate.

Im sure it helpful but I did say that this was just my opinion. I have done it without a stirplate and find it to be a hassle. If you let it sit for more than 15 minutes there is clear separation between yeast and wort. I just didnt like having to try and remember to stir it every 10-15 minutes. im sure there is still a benefit of doing it, i would just not recommend it due to the annoyance of doing that until krausen. you even said yourself a stirplate speeds things up a lot so if it normally takes 2-3 days on a stirplate, im not about to slosh yeast for a week straight!

 

[Darwin18]

I would personally delay the brew day 24-48 hours to get the starter finished. I like knowing that if I'm spending 5 - 6 hours brewing the beer that my efforts will result in the best beer possible.

 

[JSager89]

+1 if your schedule allows it. Like I said, if it doesn't I think you'll be fine, but if it's not a huge thing make the starter tonight and pitch the next day.

 

[austinb]

I would personally delay the brew day 24-48 hours to get the starter finished. I like knowing that if I'm spending 5 - 6 hours brewing the beer that my efforts will result in the best beer possible.

I don't think you need to delay if you really want to brew it tonight you just need to use dry yeast. A properly rehydrated pack of dry yeast should yield a similar cell count as a 1 liter starter and the resulting flavor should be very close if you use a similar yeast. You only need a starter for liquid yeast and some people would even debate that. Your us-05 will make a good beer but if you want to be true to style get an English strain. S-04 or Windsor for a sweet stout or Nottingham for a dry stout.

 

[kh54s10]

Im sure it helpful but I did say that this was just my opinion. I have done it without a stirplate and find it to be a hassle. If you let it sit for more than 15 minutes there is clear separation between yeast and wort. I just didnt like having to try and remember to stir it every 10-15 minutes. im sure there is still a benefit of doing it, i would just not recommend it due to the annoyance of doing that until krausen. you even said yourself a stirplate speeds things up a lot so if it normally takes 2-3 days on a stirplate, im not about to slosh yeast for a week straight!

It doesn't take 2-3 days to make a starter on a stirplate unless you are making a step starter.

Cell reproduction in a 1.040 starter is finished in approximately 18 -24 hours.

 

[finsfan]

It doesn't take 2-3 days to make a starter on a stirplate unless you are making a step starter.

Cell reproduction in a 1.040 starter is finished in approximately 18 -24 hours.

ive read over and over that you let it stir until you start to get krausen, it could take 18 hours in some cases but mine normally takes at least 2-3 days

 

[kh54s10]

If you don't mind the beer not having the true British profile that the Wyeast would provide I would use the US05. I would also feel fairly comfortable, with the style of the beer and relatively low gravity, to use the Wyeast.

 

[bethebrew]

I you pitch the smack pack you will be under pitching. That said, lots of people just pitch the smack packs an their beer usually turns out just fine.

If you want to make sure you get a good fermentation which reduces the chance of off flavors then I would suggest a properly rehydrated dry yeast because one pack when properly rehydrated should yield enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch.

The us-05 you have should make a good beer and i think it would be better to pitch that than the smack pack but it is an American ale yeast while the 1098 is an English ale yeast which imparts a slightly different flavor sometimes described as bready. If you can make it to the brew shop then I would recommend either S-04 or Nottingham as a better substitute for 1098.

I really like the 1084 Irish ale yeast for english stouts. The us-05 is always a winner for american style beers including american stouts. One pack of either us-05 or s-04 is all you should ever need in 5 gallons of beer. I make big beers always, and that's what I use. One pack dry. Sprinkle on the wort AS RECOMMENDED BY SAFEALE give it a little extra shake if it makes you sleep better. More important, take a meaningful temperature reading where fermentation is happening. My recent s-04 in an imperial IPA is at 63 between the carboys, and 57 in the freezer. Two days into ferment and likely getting close to done. Big krausen.

As for Wyeast, I have never had issue with using a good fresh pack of most of their yeasts in even the biggest of ales. Lagers now that's another story altogether.

 

[Darwin18]

I don't think you need to delay if you really want to brew it tonight you just need to use dry yeast. A properly rehydrated pack of dry yeast should yield a similar cell count as a 1 liter starter and the resulting flavor should be very close if you use a similar yeast. You only need a starter for liquid yeast and some people would even debate that. Your us-05 will make a good beer but if you want to be true to style get an English strain. S-04 or Windsor for a sweet stout or Nottingham for a dry stout.

That's correct, but I believe the OP was using liquid yeast. I always make a starter with liquid yeast regardless of the OG. I want to make sure that the yeast I'm pitching is healthy and vigorous, and I don't have control on how the liquid yeast pack or vial was shipped and handled. I've yet to see anyone on this board post a "X Number of Hours and No Fermentation" thread when pitching a starter (unless they pitch it into uncooled wort).

 

[k_mcarthur]

That's correct, but I believe the OP was using liquid yeast. I always make a starter with liquid yeast regardless of the OG. I want to make sure that the yeast I'm pitching is healthy and vigorous, and I don't have control on how the liquid yeast pack or vial was shipped and handled. I've yet to see anyone on this board post a "X Number of Hours and No Fermentation" thread when pitching a starter (unless they pitch it into uncooled wort).

Also he said he's going out of town, some people missed that.

 

[bigskygreg]

You guys are great. I appreciate all the feedback. I decided to pick up a second smack pack. Extra trip to LHBS, but I think worth it. I will plan better next time, but should be good to go now. I'm lucky I happened to be by LHBS, not my usual one, but seemed like a great place. I will be back. I'm pretty lucky to have a few choices within 30 minutes.

Cheers!

 

[k_mcarthur]

You guys are great. I appreciate all the feedback. I decided to pick up a second smack pack. Extra trip to LHBS, but I think worth it. I will plan better next time, but should be good to go now. I'm lucky I happened to be by LHBS, not my usual one, but seemed like a great place. I will be back. I'm pretty lucky to have a few choices within 30 minutes.

Cheers!

Glad to hear. Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Thanks guys. I think I will press my luck and direct pitch my smack pack. Next time I'll be sure to make the starter like always. I was lazy and wasn't 100% sure I was going to brew. Next time I'll remember that if I make the starter, then don't brew, I can always cold crash for a few days.

Thanks again!

I'm late to the party, but you had enough time to make a starter with yeast that is only 30 days old. While not ideal, I've had my starters get cranking really well in 6 hours, and you could have pitched at high krausen more than likely. Even if not, it was something.

You guys are great. I appreciate all the feedback. I decided to pick up a second smack pack. Extra trip to LHBS, but I think worth it. I will plan better next time, but should be good to go now. I'm lucky I happened to be by LHBS, not my usual one, but seemed like a great place. I will be back. I'm pretty lucky to have a few choices within 30 minutes.

Cheers!

The second package of yeast solved all the problems- good to go!

 

[kombat]

I have done it [starter] without a stirplate and find it to be a hassle. If you let it sit for more than 15 minutes there is clear separation between yeast and wort.

So? That doesn't mean the yeast isn't working! When you pitch the yeast into your main batch of beer, do you swirl the carboy every 10-15 minutes to try and keep the yeast from settling to the bottom? No, of course not.

The shaking/swirling of the starter is to knock the dissolved CO2 out of solution and mix in more oxygen, to assist the yeast in multiplying. But if you've thoroughly aerated the starter wort initially, there should still be plenty of oxygen in solution for them to complete their reproductive cycle, even if you only get around to swirling/shaking it every few hours.

you even said yourself a stirplate speeds things up a lot so if it normally takes 2-3 days on a stirplate, im not about to slosh yeast for a week straight!

As someone else pointed out, a starter on a stir plate is usually completely finished within 24 hours. But even without a stir plate, it should finish and be ready for cold-crashing or pitching after 3 days, at most.

I make big beers always, and that's what I use. One pack dry. Sprinkle on the wort

If you're happy with your beer, then that's all that matters, but for the benefit of newcomer brewers who might be reading this, I feel compelled to point out that you are wildly underpitching your beers, and that as good as they may be, they could be even better if you pitched the proper amount of yeast.

One dry pack of yeast, properly rehydrated, is enough for 5 gallons of moderate gravity (1.040) ale wort. However, you said you "always" make big beers, which would connote that one pack is insufficient, and you should be pitching more. Furthermore, you're sprinkling the dry yeast directly onto the wort instead of rehydrating it, which according to the book "Yeast" (White/Zainasheff) results in only roughly half of the yeast surviving.

AS RECOMMENDED BY SAFEALE

Safale is the product line, Fermentis is the company. And they do in fact recommend rehydrating it in water, as described here, in the product information sheet.

Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

They do describe an alternate procedure of sprinkling it into the wort dry, but the preferred procedure is rehydration. Research demonstrates that you achieve higher yeast viability using rehydration. The "direct sprinkling" method is intended for inexperienced brewers, to not scare them away. It is not portrayed as the ideal method, much like the instructions on Coopers brewing kits are not the ideal method for brewing the best possible beer using their kits.

 

[MooMan]

I've found myself in this situation before due to poor planning, or shear laziness. Rather than use just the smack pack and most likely under pitch, I decided to brew anyway and let the final batch sit in the carboy until the yeast starter was ready. IMO, the final boiled wort is in a clean environment (if done properly) and should be isolated from infection until you're ready to pitch. When the starter was finished ~2 days post brewing, I aerated the wort in the carboy and pitched as usual. At this point, the wort had already stabilized temperature and now, thanks to aeration, had a fresh supply of O2 for the happy yeast. Fermentation kicked up as usual and the beer turned out perfectly fine (there was also no noticeable oxidation from the O2 in the headspace). I've done this about 3 times and have had no adverse reactions.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[austinb]

You guys are great. I appreciate all the feedback. I decided to pick up a second smack pack. Extra trip to LHBS, but I think worth it. I will plan better next time, but should be good to go now. I'm lucky I happened to be by LHBS, not my usual one, but seemed like a great place. I will be back. I'm pretty lucky to have a few choices within 30 minutes.

Cheers!

That was actually a great idea, two fresh smack packs should yield close to the 200 billion cells you need. I don't know why nobody in this thread thought of that.

In the future if you don't have time for a starter but you also don't want to spend $15 on two smack packs dry yeast is a great option for only $3-4 a pack. Between danstar and fermentis you actually have quite a few options if your brewshop carries them. You can get dry yeast for American ales, English ales, lagers, hefeweizens, Belgians and danstar even makes a dry Saison yeast. Many old school brewers are still hesitant to use them and will tell you liquid yeast is better but manufacturing processes for dry yeast have really improved and dry yeast is very good yeast now. In my opinion spending $7 on WLP 001 or Wyeast 1056 which is the same strain as US-05 is just spending another few bucks for the same exact thing, kind of pointless.

 

[kombat]

In my opinion spending $7 on WLP 001 or Wyeast 1056 which is the same strain as US-05 is just spending another few bucks for the same exact thing, kind of pointless.

In my experience, I've always had a much faster start to fermentation when using the liquid yeast (from a starter, obviously) as opposed to the dry yeast. Some of my dry yeast pitches (rehydrated, of course) have taken over 2 days to show signs of life, but whenever I've pitched liquid yeast from a starter, I've always had a visible krausen within 24 hours.

 

[kh54s10]

That was actually a great idea, two fresh smack packs should yield close to the 200 billion cells you need. I don't know why nobody in this thread thought of that.

In my opinion spending $7 on WLP 001 or Wyeast 1056 which is the same strain as US-05 is just spending another few bucks for the same exact thing, kind of pointless.

I agree that adding another liquid 001 or 1056 when you have US05 would be a waste. But, the OP was using 1098.

In my experience, I've always had a much faster start to fermentation when using the liquid yeast (from a starter, obviously) as opposed to the dry yeast. Some of my dry yeast pitches (rehydrated, of course) have taken over 2 days to show signs of life, but whenever I've pitched liquid yeast from a starter, I've always had a visible krausen within 24 hours.

I make starters and most of them take off in 4-5 hours and all by morning.
I haven't seen much difference between a starter and re-hydrated dry yeast. And the longest with sprinkled dry yeast was on a brew that I finished at 5 pm one day and went off when I was at work the next day, good activity before 24 hours.

I guess I am due for a worry when it takes several days to start fermentation.
I also wonder when I will brew a bad batch? I am at 43 batches and not a bad one among them. Hope my luck keeps going.

 

[k_mcarthur]

I didn't do any starters my whole first year of brewing, still made fine beer then. If time is the main constraint I would just pitch the smack pack, just expect delayed start to fermentation but since you'll be out of town then it won't really matter. I usually don't brew anymore if I don't have my starter ready, but in this case I'd probably just go ahead and brew. Dry yeast is a good idea, no starter needed, but if you go to the LHBS just pick up another smack pack. Pitching two packs is same as a starter.

That suggestion was made, if you read the whole thread. Austinb

 

[austinb]

That suggestion was made, if you read the whole thread. Austinb

I thought I had read it all but I guess I missed that. It was definitely probably the best solution since he already had one smack pack. If he didn't have the yeast already the dry yeast would probably be better because its $3-4 for 200 billion cells compared to $14-16 for 200 billion with 2 smack packs.

Honestly I don't know why the liquid yeast manufacturers don't make 200 billion cell packs and sell them for a few more bucks so that people who don't want to bother with a starter can get a proper pitch rate right out of the smack pack or vial.