she said "it takes too long".........

[Owly055]

A clerk at a LBHS when asked the other day if she was a home brewer replied "it takes too long" ............................. I know she loves home brew, but I also know that the people around her are brewing on complex systems....... 3 tuns, pumps, etc. She's been to a few brew days where guys haul out their equipment. Shiny stainless steel vessels connected to pumps and plumbing with fancy triclamp fittings, and enough valves to confuse even a firefighter!........ a 5-6 hour process including cleanup. She's also been involved in the BIAB process.... a bit faster at 4.5 hours including clean up. She doesn't have 5 hours to commit to brewing......... she has a LIFE!!

I explained that I had refined the process down to 2.5 hours start to finish (grain pre-crushed), and she couldn't believe it.........

I explained how I do an "inline mash", doughing in with hot tap water (130F), and rapidly raising the temp to 145, then very slowly to 155 over 20 minutes. How I can raise to boil from 155 in just 8 minutes using my kitchen stove and my floating 2500 watt heater (home built). How I boil for just 45 minutes at a hard boil instead of an hour or 90 minutes, and how I crash it to pitch temp in just 7 minutes using an immersion heater, a cold water bath, and ice filled tubes floating in the brew.............

She obviously didn't believe me, though she's tried my brews...... and her friends who brew told her I was full of s__t........ or so I assume. The result is that I have to "prove it"..... I refuse to have more than one other person in the kitchen while I brew... there just isn't the space, and I don't need 5 people underfoot. I'm not a "social brewer" like many folks here......... I'm really not a social anything.

Sometime in January I will have a brewing "partner" for one brew session..... She chooses the brew she wants to make and brings the ingredients......... she takes the fermenter home, and from that point on it's "her baby"..... She's too far away, I won't accept any "child support" responsibilities. A friend of hers will rack it into bottles and do the sugar thing. It isn't a date......... she's easily young enough to be my daughter (30 years difference).... so don't get the wrong idea. It may be the start of something beautiful...... someone's exploration into brewing.

Most folks don't brew the way I do........... I hope to communicate some of that idea to her as well......... I don't begin with a recipe, only with ingredients, and a sense of how they can be put together to make something interesting. I sit down in front of the computer and use Brewer's Friend to craft something from the grains and hops I have on hand. I may use two row or pilsner, any of a number of crystal malts, biscuit malts, roast barley, or chocolate malt. I may use some corn sugar or honey, wheat malt, rye malt, flaked corn, cooked rice, torrified wheat, etc. I have about 20 different hops in my freezer..... I'm gradually learning what works and what doesn't, what I like, and what I don't............... Hopefully I'll "show her a good time", launching her into the world of home brewing, and recruiting someone to "spread the word" that brewing can be inexpensive, easy, fun and NOT eat up all your spare time. It really can!!

H.W.

 

[Teromous]

she said "it takes too long".........

They make "special tools" if you need that extra help ...oh wait homebrewing? Yeah you're lucky if you're doing it in 2.5 hours. It takes me about that long to figure out where I left my hydrometer the day before. I try to stay organized but I often end up working against myself. Kudos for offering to help her.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

The difference between 2.5 hours and 5-6 hours is really not important, IMO, for people who like the process of making their own beer, especiually since you have to spend time "in front of the computer...to craft something from the grains and hops" you have on hand. Given how long it takes to ferment, package, carbonate... anyone who doesn't have time for 5 hours also likely doesn't have time to learn how to do it in 2.5. It is more likely that she just isn't interested in brewing.

Although, maybe you could get her to your flat. "Hey, how would you like to see my bag?"

 

[Devin]

My lady never complains about me taking too long.....

 

[madscientist451]

yeah , mine doesn't either, she's a keeper....

 

[Natdavis777]

My lady never complains about me taking too long.....

Word!!!

Seriousness aside, I dont mind the time it takes me to homebrew. I enjoy the process. My most relaxed brewday was the one where I let me mash ride on over an hour, and let it fly sparge for over an hour.

Brewing doesnt take too long for me. Its another excuse to crack a beer open at 9 in the morning. Work takes too long. Mowing the grass takes too long. Brewing is a passion of mine, it doesnt take long enough

 

[Calder]

I really don't like to be rushed. I typically take 5 hours, and that is fine by me. If I have a stuck sparge, I don't want to be on a time schedule, and like to allow it time to drain slowly. I insist on a minimum of 60 minute boil. Those flame out hops - they will sit there for 30 minutes or more.

 

[JohnSand]

Owly, you're doing a fine thing. There are many people *(see above) who like to enjoy a leisurely brew day. That's great. There are many others who can't or won't take that much time. They shouldn't miss the joy of brewing because they want to spend time on other things too. This pastime embraces many different styles of beer and brewing. I would even suggest that she might try extract brewing to save time. "Do what works for you" is as much the motto of brewing as "Relax, don't worry..."

 

[sumbrewindude]

Owly, I do like your posts.

Something about being unconventional, doing things differently, and questioning the status quo really makes me enjoy seeing what you've come up with and your process to get there.

I know you spoken of your fast mash process before, but the one thing that interests me in this latest one is your description of the temp raise in the sacc rest. You're essentially doing a short protein rest with the 130 infusion (honestly I'm not sure why you start at this step unless you're using high protein malts), but it's the 140-155F over 20min that really has my interest peaked.

In my current setup, I'm essentially doing the same, only in reverse as the cooler tends to loose heat overtime (not 15 deg, but still, it's not uncommon to loose 5F over a 30-40min mash in my cooler). I have trouble maintaining a steady temp with my induction plate as it wants to climb slowly even on it's lowest setting. Your technique has me interested as it would easily fit a limitation of my system.

Only bummer, I don't think my pot could do a full BIAB/No sparge in it's current configuration - it's too small! New I should have got that 8gal pot...

I'm going to play around with the concept anyway - it could offer me an option as I'm exploring a CT Brutus20 system, as well as offer a simple/quick option for BIAB Milds I love to make.

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

It's a noble effort to try to help people think differently about brewing, but she may be a lost cause. I know one thing is for sure, I wouldn't hire someone that would say what she said. For one thing, it's a horrible sales pitch. It's like a Chevy salesman that drives a Dodge. I don't like liars but in that case telling the truth is even worse. It's better to not have to decide between the two evils and just hire someone that is passionate about the same thing the customers are.

 

[histo320]

It's a noble effort to try to help people think differently about brewing, but she may be a lost cause. I know one thing is for sure, I wouldn't hire someone that would say what she said. For one thing, it's a horrible sales pitch. It's like a Chevy salesman that drives a Dodge. I don't like liars but in that case telling the truth is even worse. It's better to not have to decide between the two evils and just hire someone that is passionate about the same thing the customers are.

I agree with this 100%. Terrible sales pitch, the goal should be to get as many people as possible into homebrewing should you own a homebrew store.

As for the time, to each his own. Brewing is a hobby and a passion for me. My typical brew day is a 6 hour job and I don't mind it as most of it I am still able to do other things as it is a lot of waiting around, especially during the mash and cooling the wort.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

i make it take as long as i want. its fun. its not work or a chore.

 

[ong]

While sometimes I like doing a big huge brew day with several decoctions, etc., having time-saving techniques in your quiver is definitely valuable. And it may allow people to fit in more brew days or try something a little riskier (coconut and celery saison?), if they're not afraid of losing 5-6 hours on a bad batch.

 

[Owly055]

My actual temp after dough in is about 120 due to temp drop. It makes no time difference weather I heat my strike water to 154 so my starting mash temp is 145, or heat with the grain already in. I reach mash range pretty rapidly on high heat (gas stove cranked beyond design settings). My thinking is that there can be some benefit if small from this temp rise, and no harm. I really do it because there's no time penalty.

The challenge is controlling temp rise over the 20 minute time in the mash range. I'm working with gas, so it's difficult to fine tune. I plan on one of my next brews to use my electric hot plate from 145 to 155 in an attempt to hone in on a consistent setting.

There really isn't an advantage of doing the inline mash over doing a wrap it up mash, in fact the inline mash means stirring pretty steadily. 20 minutes isn't a great deal of time, and I simply don't want to take the pot off the stove and wrap it. I've "mashed up" and mashed down (like you do)...... both work, but mashing up works better for me. I believe... and could be wrong.... that there is benefit in heating with the grain already in the water. The conversion is already happening when it hits mash temp range, and as it approaches 155, the rest of the conversion happens in minutes. It goes from milky to clear with breathtaking speed, and the brix shoots up and stabilizes very quickly. The arguments against this short mash time don't hold up in reality. I get more or less identical results weather I do a 20 minute inline mash or an hour insulated conventional mash. I believe that part of this is that there are other processes essential to conversion that are NOT in themselves conversion. Processes that have to take place during the hour mash before conversion can take place. I'm using my heating time to accomplish this.

The real advantage in terms of time will show up when I have my in bag circulator built, and can mash while I sleep.

The real creativity of brewing takes place mostly in the designing of the brew, not in sitting around waiting for something to happen. There seems to be an idea that I'm rushing around or racing, simply because I have eliminated a great deal of the waiting. I really don't understand how people make the leap from efficient to rushed? On the contrary, my brew day is anything but rushed. I simply have a system that is simple and involves little equipment, and I know where to find that equipment.... I brew nearly every week after all. I suspect that the majority of members here don't brew half a dozen batches a year. That means that I don't have to search closets or shelves for equipment. It's all right there where I put it last week........ and every week.

I have no idea what people do while waiting for things to happen... I often spend the small amounts of time I spend waiting by answering Email, making a phone call or two, reading the news, and if on a week day, trading stocks (day trading... most of my positions last minutes and involve $60K-70K). My computer is within 10' of where I brew.

The in bag circulating pump system will reduce my actual brew day to 60-90 minutes including clean up............ 10-15 minutes the night before to fill the kettle and set the timer and add the grain. That's not too shabby

H.W.

Owly, I do like your posts.

Something about being unconventional, doing things differently, and questioning the status quo really makes me enjoy seeing what you've come up with and your process to get there.

I know you spoken of your fast mash process before, but the one thing that interests me in this latest one is your description of the temp raise in the sacc rest. You're essentially doing a short protein rest with the 130 infusion (honestly I'm not sure why you start at this step unless you're using high protein malts), but it's the 140-155F over 20min that really has my interest peaked.

In my current setup, I'm essentially doing the same, only in reverse as the cooler tends to loose heat overtime (not 15 deg, but still, it's not uncommon to loose 5F over a 30-40min mash in my cooler). I have trouble maintaining a steady temp with my induction plate as it wants to climb slowly even on it's lowest setting. Your technique has me interested as it would easily fit a limitation of my system.

Only bummer, I don't think my pot could do a full BIAB/No sparge in it's current configuration - it's too small! New I should have got that 8gal pot...

I'm going to play around with the concept anyway - it could offer me an option as I'm exploring a CT Brutus20 system, as well as offer a simple/quick option for BIAB Milds I love to make.

Cheers!

 

[agrazela]

She's just being coy. You know she wants to hop your grains.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

That 2.5 hour brew technique sounds sketchy to me but if it works, have at it. My day is about 5 hours to brew 10-13 gallon batches. If I had a brew house so everything was setup and get my cleaning protocols faster I could get it down to maybe 4 hours. I have two cookers but my strike water heater could be higher BTU to speed that up. Maybe having a hot liquor tank would be nice so having strike and sparge water ready would really help.
Question- I brew with keggles but do those really expensive self contained systems cut much time out of the process?

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Cutting the brewing time down has limitations but I have found you can increase output. Sometimes my daughter and I brew together and we can brew 2 complete 12 gallon batches in about 6 hours, where it takes 5 hours to do one batch. The setup and cleanup are reduced and I can keep my two propane cookers going most of the time. I only have one mashtun, boil kettle and wort chiller, which are bottlenecks but I have extras of most things like kettles and misc. stuff.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

That 2.5 hour brew technique sounds sketchy to me but if it works, have at it. My day is about 5 hours to brew 10-13 gallon batches. If I had a brew house so everything was setup and get my cleaning protocols faster I could get it down to maybe 4 hours. I have two cookers but my strike water heater could be higher BTU to speed that up. Maybe having a hot liquor tank would be nice so having strike and sparge water ready would really help.
Question- I brew with keggles but do those really expensive self contained systems cut much time out of the process?

 

[harry_the_face]

Owly what size batches do you do? Are you using a commercial gas stove or a regular residential model?

 

[Owly055]

I agree with this 100%. Terrible sales pitch, the goal should be to get as many people as possible into homebrewing should you own a homebrew store.

As for the time, to each his own. Brewing is a hobby and a passion for me. My typical brew day is a 6 hour job and I don't mind it as most of it I am still able to do other things as it is a lot of waiting around, especially during the mash and cooling the wort.

This hardly qualifies as a terrible sales pitch........ I'm a regular customer, and these people qualify as casual friends. I share beer and kombucha with them, and the casual conversation was more of a conversation between casual friends than as a sales person / customer. If I'd been a wannabe brewer....... as when I bought my first grains and brew bag, she would have been all encouragement. Answering my question honestly is far better than lying or pretending. Dishonesty has no place in customer relations. Personally I don't deal with people who lie to me!!

H.W.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

one thing I could never understand about the speed brewers on here is this:

they claim to save brewing time by way of grinding grain the night before or cleaning and sanitizing equipment the day before and so on....

I don't see how this saves time? It doesn't, it moves the time spent from the morning to the evening before. whether a task is done the day of or the day before, its time should still be added to the brew day time.

if you were doing this for a living and being paid by the hour, would you only wanna get paid for the time you worked on brew day or would you also count the time you spent the day before prepping the brewday? I know my time card would include the prep day before......

 

[Psylocide]

My lady never complains about me taking too long.....

Mine does. Let's not kid ourselves, they really don't like it that much.

 

[IslandLizard]

This hardly qualifies as a terrible sales pitch........ I'm a regular customer, and these people qualify as casual friends. I share beer and kombucha with them, and the casual conversation was more of a conversation between casual friends than as a sales person / customer. If I'd been a wannabe brewer....... as when I bought my first grains and brew bag, she would have been all encouragement. Answering my question honestly is far better than lying or pretending. Dishonesty has no place in customer relations. Personally I don't deal with people who lie to me!!

H.W.

That little background is very helpful to be able to see this in the right light.

Being an employee is a persona, and I agree, it would be ideal if that matched that individual's every day's personality. But if that's not attainable (as is often the case) it is always best if persona prevails over personality, of which we encounter the opposite way too commonly: a sales clerk or employee with an attitude. They can hurt a small business the most.

 

[RM-MN]

one thing I could never understand about the speed brewers on here is this:

they claim to save brewing time by way of grinding grain the night before or cleaning and sanitizing equipment the day before and so on....

I don't see how this saves time? It doesn't, it moves the time spent from the morning to the evening before. whether a task is done the day of or the day before, its time should still be added to the brew day time.

if you were doing this for a living and being paid by the hour, would you only wanna get paid for the time you worked on brew day or would you also count the time you spent the day before prepping the brewday? I know my time card would include the prep day before......

I do no prep the day before. I choose or make up a recipe and then start my clock. Bring the equipment needed to start, weigh and mill teh grain while heating the water to strike temp. Start the mash and put away any equipment that I am done with and bring up any more that I still need. Clean and put away again and bring out the fermenter to be sanitized while boiling. Finish cleaning and put the rest away while the wort chills. Done in 2 1/2 hours.

 

[z-bob]

one thing I could never understand about the speed brewers on here is this:

they claim to save brewing time by way of grinding grain the night before or cleaning and sanitizing equipment the day before and so on....

I don't see how this saves time? It doesn't, it moves the time spent from the morning to the evening before. whether a task is done the day of or the day before, its time should still be added to the brew day time.

if you were doing this for a living and being paid by the hour, would you only wanna get paid for the time you worked on brew day or would you also count the time you spent the day before prepping the brewday? I know my time card would include the prep day before......

It does make a difference... If I can get my brewing time down to 3 hours, I can do it on a weeknight or Sunday without making Mrs. Z angry. (but it still has to be fun, this is a hobby and not a job) The grinding and other prep still has to be done and should be accounted for, but it doesn't have to be on brewday.

I'm down to 3.5 hours at a pretty leisurely pace. Not sure I can get to 3 hours without feeling rushed, so I brew on Saturdays, and free Saturdays don't come along all that often. The biggest time saver by far was the electric HLT.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

...and you're pretty sure she was talking about home brewing, right?

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I do no prep the day before. I choose or make up a recipe and then start my clock. Bring the equipment needed to start, weigh and mill teh grain while heating the water to strike temp. Start the mash and put away any equipment that I am done with and bring up any more that I still need. Clean and put away again and bring out the fermenter to be sanitized while boiling. Finish cleaning and put the rest away while the wort chills. Done in 2 1/2 hours.

Then you sir are in fact a fast brewer. I didn't say it was bad to brew fast, just that a lot claim to brew fast then mention all this work they did the day before. Congratz on your efficiency, hopefully one day I too will be as organized on brew day.

It does make a difference... If I can get my brewing time down to 3 hours, I can do it on a weeknight or Sunday without making Mrs. Z angry. (but it still has to be fun, this is a hobby and not a job) The grinding and other prep still has to be done and should be accounted for, but it doesn't have to be on brewday.

I'm down to 3.5 hours at a pretty leisurely pace. Not sure I can get to 3 hours without feeling rushed, so I brew on Saturdays, and free Saturdays don't come along all that often. The biggest time saver by far was the electric HLT.

Again, nothing wrong with doing prep ahead of time. My comment was about the people who do the prep but then seem to "forget" about all the time they spent yesterday when they brag about how fast they can brew.

If prepping before hand makes you be able to finagle enough time to brew the next day, then its a no brainer.

As I said, nothing wrong with prep work, I'm a chef and my industry is built around prep work. My point is, don't short change yourself (or forum friends) as to the amount time you are actually spending to make your beer.

 

[Owly055]

one thing I could never understand about the speed brewers on here is this:

they claim to save brewing time by way of grinding grain the night before or cleaning and sanitizing equipment the day before and so on....

I don't see how this saves time? It doesn't, it moves the time spent from the morning to the evening before. whether a task is done the day of or the day before, its time should still be added to the brew day time.

if you were doing this for a living and being paid by the hour, would you only wanna get paid for the time you worked on brew day or would you also count the time you spent the day before prepping the brewday? I know my time card would include the prep day before......

You are missing the point altogether......... This is about reducing the total brew day time. If you can have grain pre crushed, you save doing it on brew day. It's only about a 10 minute saving, but that's 10 minutes less spent on brew day.


Obviously you think I should get up on brew day and drive to the LHBS, buy supplies, drive back, crush grain, and start brewing. Let's see. The LHBS is a 160 mile round trip, so that right away adds at least 3 hours to brew day. Or perhaps since I buy malt and hops in quantity I need to amortize that time, applying a percentage of that time to each brew. That's it.... assign a "time cost" to each ingredient.

Home brewing is a HOBBY..........Nobody is punching a time clock and it's asinine to make that comparison. The problem most of us face is in coming up with large blocks of time for brewing. It is far easier to find 2.5 hours of brewday time than it is to find 5 hours. Most of us can fairly easily take 2.5 hours after work...... or even before work with little trouble. For example, if you have dinner at 6 and it consumes an hour what do you do from 7:00 to 10:00? Sit in front of the **** tube? If you started brewing at 7:00 using conventional methods, you would be finishing up at midnight. With my method, I would be done by 9:30

It amazes me how persistently people hang on to the notion that in reducing brew day time, we are racing against the clock, or turning a recreational activity into an ordeal. This is about making it possible for people to brew, not about setting speed records.

I've brewed 43 batches of beer for far this year....(#44 will be New Year's Eve)... how many times have you brewed? How many times do you suppose I would have brewed if I had had to spend 5 hours each time?


There have been some strange responses here......... one guy who thinks I should punch a time clock while brewing & prep, and another who thinks I should call the boss of the girl at the LHBS and get her fired.

This thread is about trying to get someone into home brewing who thought she couldn't afford the time...... which I personally consider a worthwhile effort. After brewing with me, she can spread the gospel that it doesn't take an entire day to do an all grain brew, nor does it take ton of tuns and other equipment. I started with a single $12 Walmart stockpot and a brew bag (about the same price) and some bottles. I've since scaled up to a larger stock pot that will handle my entire mash, and built a chiller and a floating heater, and managed to pare 2 hours off my brew day. I also bought a BC barley crusher so I could buy grain in 50 pound sacks. One step at a time..........

Somebody please tell me what's wrong with what I'm doing....... I don't get it!


H.W.

 

[Bobby_M]

This hardly qualifies as a terrible sales pitch........ I'm a regular customer, and these people qualify as casual friends. I share beer and kombucha with them, and the casual conversation was more of a conversation between casual friends than as a sales person / customer. If I'd been a wannabe brewer....... as when I bought my first grains and brew bag, she would have been all encouragement. Answering my question honestly is far better than lying or pretending. Dishonesty has no place in customer relations. Personally I don't deal with people who lie to me!!

H.W.

I think my point was that I want people working for me who are just as passionate about brewing as I am. That can't always happen but the people who interact with customers should be.

 

[paperairplane]

If someone was really worried about time commitment, I would recommend a simple indoor partial mash BIAB + extract brew day.