Acidified malt vs lactic acid

[VikeMan]

Okay time for the monkey wrench.
Howzabout phosphoric acid?

It's not a popular as lactic, but it's out there. Lots of LHBSs sell it. Mash software supports it, so no need to guess.

 

[day_trippr]

I went with Phosphoric Acid from the jump for its effectiveness, ease of use, and virtual lack of any character.

Cheers!

 

[kohalajohn]

No, an imperial glug, so you need to divide by the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

Well, it’s obvious once you say it.

 

[fluketamer]

it might have been said above but for me acid malt is so easy. just 4-5 oz per 5 gallons in light grist beers seems to always get my ph in range.

 

[Pennine]

This is one the things I have changed in my brewing. Moving from acid malt to phosphoric based on this article. I have never done a comparison but usually their results don't indicate a taste difference and clear preference.

https://brulosophy.com/2018/04/23/w...t-for-mash-ph-adjustment-exbeeriment-results/

 

[dmtaylor]

Okay time for the monkey wrench.
Howzabout phosphoric acid?

It's great. One of my favorite ingredients of Coca-Cola and Mountain Dew.

 

[Zadkiel]

Okay time for the monkey wrench.
Howzabout phosphoric acid?

I'd prefer to use it over Citric if I could.

But here in the UK it's sale is regulated and controlled, because of its possible use in bomb making. Over there in the US if you want to kill a bunch of people you can just go buy guns, here folks have to make bombs instead. We also had a spate of acid attacks.

You can theoretically still buy it, but in order to do so you have to register yourself with the government and obtain a special license. And then find a company willing to sell it to you, and because they are also legally required to check your paperwork, obtain your ID, record it and possibly report it to the government that you bought it, no-one is prepared to go through it all for a small sale of the amount a homebrewer would order, so it's effectively impossible to buy even if you did get the license.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

 

[day_trippr]

Jeeze, that's rather extreme. I don't know about bomb making, but given all the random "oops" exposure I've had to it I don't think Phosphoric Acid even at the commercially available 85% concentration I buy would be all that damaging used as a weapon. Certainly not in the league with sulfuric or hydrochloric or hydrofluoric...

 

[mac_1103]

But here in the UK it's sale is regulated and controlled, because of its possible use in bomb making.

So what kind of hoops do y'all have to jump through when you want to fertilize your rose bushes?

 

[Zadkiel]

So what kind of hoops do y'all have to jump through when you want to fertilize your rose bushes?

There's plenty of 'safe' fertiliser options

 

[Zadkiel]

If you're interested: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-targeting-bomb-making-materials-come-into-force

 

[Broothru]

Okay time for the monkey wrench.
Howzabout phosphoric acid?

Why stop there? Plenty of sulfuric available.

 

[doug293cz]

If you're interested: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-targeting-bomb-making-materials-come-into-force

According to this link, 10% phosphoric acid should not be restricted (limit is 30% per the article.) I believe 10% phosphoric is one of the commonly available concentrations (the other is 85%, which would not be allowed.)

Brew on

 

[Zadkiel]

You'd think so, but for reasons no-one has been able to figure out, since this regulation went into place, concentrations under 30% vanished too. Probably related to supply lines of the stronger stuff drying up

 

[MaxStout]

What's the concentration of phosphoric acid in StarSan? Could a bomb be made from that? Asking for a friend.

*knock, knock, knock*

Someone's at the door, BRB

 

[doug293cz]

What's the concentration of phosphoric acid in StarSan? Could a bomb be made from that? Asking for a friend.

*knock, knock, knock*

Someone's at the door, BRB

50 - 60% according to the MSDS.

Brew on

 

[kohalajohn]

That Brulosophy experiment was interesting. Phosphoric acid. Better taste? More stable than lactic?

You expect Brulosophy to find that it doesn’t matter. But apparently there is a perceived difference between the two acids.

 

[day_trippr]

Quite a bit of difference in how they are perceived once their respective perception thresholds are reached - which are ~400 ppm for lactic and ~1000 ppm for phosphoric. Also, phosphoric can hide behind the phosphates commonly found in beer. Lactic's character is harder to hide in comparison...

Cheers!

 

[kohalajohn]

Interesting. I see the online sales are either in 10% or 85%

Why are the two choices given, @day_trippr ?

 

[day_trippr]

The 10% may be how most folks end up using PA, while the 85% cuts down on bulk for shipping and long term needs.
I use 25% in brewing, made from 85% and DI water. I bought a 32 ounce bottle of the 85% in 2016 (per my Amazon history) from Dudadiesel and I bet I haven't used a quarter of it yet, even while brewing 150~185 gallons per annum...

Cheers!

 

[Zadkiel]

I bought a 32 ounce bottle of the 85% in 2016 (per my Amazon history) from Dudadiesel and I bet I haven't used a quarter of it yet, even while brewing 150~185 gallons per annum...

I'm curious, does that bottle have an expiry date or a re-test date on it?

Phosphoric acid will degrade over time. As long as it's being stored out of direct sunlight and below 21C (70F) then it will remain close to it's marked concentration for about 10 years, but any time above 21C will reduce that as polymerisation will occur more rapidly - to be clear, it doesn't degrade into anything harmful, there's no 'danger' in using expired phosphoric, but it slowly polymerises into polyphosphoric acids, losing 1 water molecule each time (H3PO4 + H3PO4 => H2O + H4P2O7. H4P2O7 => H2O + H2P2O6. etc etc) which means its concentration will decrease

 

[kohalajohn]

Well, this has been an interesting and educational thread.

I started, believing that acidified malt was preferable. I now believe that I'll be using phosphoric acid in the future.

Question about concentration. I do small three gallon batches, and measuring very small amounts of water additions can be tricky. Should I dilute down the 85% before using it?

 

[Zadkiel]

Well, this has been an interesting and educational thread.

I started, believing that acidified malt was preferable. I now believe that I'll be using phosphoric acid in the future.

Question about concentration. I do small three gallon batches, and measuring very small amounts of water additions can be tricky. Should I dilute down the 85% before using it?

Depends on your own confidence in controlling your addition amount. I use my citric acid at full 88% concentration, but I also use 5ml syringes which allow for extremely precise control.

 

[Pennine]

I do 10L batches and only ever use 1 or 2 ml per batch. A small graduated cylinder works fine.

 

[Broothru]

A gram-specific scale accurate to 0.01 gr works well, as long as I remember to tare the weight of the crucible. (don’t ask if I’ve ever forgotten this step).

 

[jackbflyin]

No, an imperial glug, so you need to divide by the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

African or European?

 

[dmtaylor]

African or European?

I don't know that!

 

[jerrylotto]

Phosphoric is the only acid I will use. Unlike lactic, it is flavor neutral and trivalent to boot!