Scorching during step mash. Anvil 10.5

[Gunshowgreg]

I’m wanting to attempt my second Hefeweizen and deciding to do 2 new things
1. Step mash
2. Open fermentation

With regards to the step mash has anyone experienced scorching issues with this process? I was wanting to use the element to achieve temps.

Also I’m looking into getting a claw hammer system also. Can anyone comment with that system having scorching issues?

I’m running 120V btw.

Cheers

 

[Knightshade]

I'm not sure I'd call it scorching as I've never had the negative aspects of burnt or acrid flavors transfer to the beer. However, the couple of times where I've had crud baked up hard enough that it required some serious scrubbing or a magic eraser was when I've used 90 min boils, DME or double crushed grains.

I decided against double crushing based off of that experience, and very rarely use DME anymore unless a recipe calls for it explicitly.

More detail about your grain bill and recipe will probably yield more thoughtful responses from other members.

 

[Gunshowgreg]

I’m doin g 50/50 wheat and Pilsner malt. I have been using the brew bag that came with my second hand purchase and have been crushing my grain twice at local HB shop. I’m going to try using the malt pipe alone this time and crushing once. The bag is cool but I don’t want to clean it if I don’t want to. (Tips to set me grain crusher I acquired are appreciated )

Doing this recipe
https://byo.com/article/german-hefeweizen-style-profile/

I have searched but did not find anyone that had issues doing step mash’s with this system so I guess it’s ok.

 

[Witherby]

I’m doin g 50/50 wheat and Pilsner malt. I have been using the brew bag that came with my second hand purchase and have been crushing my grain twice at local HB shop. I’m going to try using the malt pipe alone this time and crushing once. The bag is cool but I don’t want to clean it if I don’t want to. (Tips to set me grain crusher I acquired are appreciated )

Doing this recipe
https://byo.com/article/german-hefeweizen-style-profile/

I have searched but did not find anyone that had issues doing step mash’s with this system so I guess it’s ok.

I mash with a fine crush in a bag in the malt pipe in my Foundry. I do step mashes on Hefeweizens and all of my lagers and scorching just isn’t an issue. If you want maximum clove on that Hefeweizen you need that ferulic acid rest. The Foundry is made for step mashing.

And definitely try open fermentation. That I do on all my beers. Just a loose lid on your fermenter (not clamped down or tight). If your lid is on but the airlock isn’t bubbling then you are good. Hefeweizen yeast evolved in that environment. Definitely go for it.

 

[jdauria]

I have had a little protein and grain dust stuck to the bottom that does get browned, but recently did a Grodziskie which was 100% oat smoked wheat malt and even with rice hulls, the bottom was so gunked so and scorched during the mash even at just 60% power with 120v, that I got an E3 error during one of my mash steps. Had to transfer to another pot and then clean the bottom...and it was so scorched that cleaning took over and hour, as first I tried just scrubbing, then add to hit it with a PBW soak, and then get the last bits off with a Barkeeper's Friend scrubbing. If I ever make a 100% wheat malt beer again, I will either mash in a cooler or use a bag in the Anvil basket. I posted a pic on the Anvil FB forum and even John Blichmann was shocked how bad it was...since it was just a mash and constant recirculating one at that.

 

[Peteinno]

I have the Clawhammer 120V system and tried brewing hefe twice with a ferulic rest (with recirculation) and scorched the crap out of my element. The first time the element was so scorched that it wouldn't clean and I had to buy another one. When I dumped the batch I noticed a big blob of a gelatin like goo filled the bottom of the kettle. If I was to do it again I would do the ferulic rest separately in another kettle on the stovetop. I believe that's what the apartment brewer did and he has the Clawhammer as well.

 

[tracer bullet]

I always put a Wilser bag in my pipe, it keeps practically all of the grain that got turned into powder contained. And it's a lot easier to clean than a Brew Bag since it's not so stiff. It means another thing to buy but it works well and might be a consideration.

I go with the Brew Bag when I don't use the pipe.

 

[kevin58]

I've never experienced scorching during the mash on an Anvil Foundry. The temps shouldn't get high enough. If grain dust/flour gets out of your bag or basket then it can scorch during the boil and that comes with a risk that your heating element will shut down.

 

[Gunshowgreg]

I have the Clawhammer 120V system and tried brewing hefe twice with a ferulic rest (with recirculation) and scorched the crap out of my element. The first time the element was so scorched that it wouldn't clean and I had to buy another one. When I dumped the batch I noticed a big blob of a gelatin like goo filled the bottom of the kettle. If I was to do it again I would do the ferulic rest separately in another kettle on the stovetop. I believe that's what the apartment brewer did and he has the Clawhammer as well.

Yeah I watched his video and and it was his video that made me wonder if I was gonna scorch my stuff or not. What was the goo stuff?

 

[Gunshowgreg]

I always put a Wilser bag in my pipe, it keeps practically all of the grain that got turned into powder contained. And it's a lot easier to clean than a Brew Bag since it's not so stiff. It means another thing to buy but it works well and might be a consideration.

I go with the Brew Bag when I don't use the pipe.

Yeah I noticed that bag was really hard to clean compared to the Wilser bag my old system. I also can’t fit the lid with the wholes on for recirculating. I have to fold the bag in on it self and the out the lid with the whole on it.

In this hobby we spend money it’s what we do within reason of course. I think I’m gonna get another one for that malt pipe.

 

[Gunshowgreg]

I have had a little protein and grain dust stuck to the bottom that does get browned, but recently did a Grodziskie which was 100% oat smoked wheat malt and even with rice hulls, the bottom was so gunked so and scorched during the mash even at just 60% power with 120v, that I got an E3 error during one of my mash steps. Had to transfer to another pot and then clean the bottom...and it was so scorched that cleaning took over and hour, as first I tried just scrubbing, then add to hit it with a PBW soak, and then get the last bits off with a Barkeeper's Friend scrubbing. If I ever make a 100% wheat malt beer again, I will either mash in a cooler or use a bag in the Anvil basket. I posted a pic on the Anvil FB forum and even John Blichmann was shocked how bad it was...since it was just a mash and constant recirculating one at that.

Sounds terrible dude. I’m frustrated for you.

 

[jdauria]

Sounds terrible dude. I’m frustrated for you.

Thanks! In the long run, the beer came out great though...so it was worth it!

 

[Gunshowgreg]

Yes I want that banana and clove flavor that I know and love. My last Hefeweizen I made was pretty bad. It had a deli meat flavor to it that kinda went away over time but no clove or banana flavor. Used the Munich classic yeast. I think autolysis is to blame after reading palmers book. Idk but I’m gonna try again.

 

[VTMongoose]

I don't know how important a long step mashing regimen is, but I can say that every time I have tried to shorten it or just use infusion with Hefeweizen, the results are simply worse in some way, either not enough clove, or a lacklustre head. What I have settled on is a 30 minute rest at 114, 15 @ 122 for protein, and then a long beta rest, 90 minutes. My system tends to run a little cooler than where I set it. The last 6 hefeweizen I have brewed have finished at 1.008, I basically don't even need to check anymore.

Brewing this way, I will reliably have a huge amount of protein sludge on the elements at the end of the brew day. It doesn't scorch, but it gets thick and it takes a good amount of scrubbing even with hot PBW to get it off. You've been warned.

I would be curious what OP is looking for in an open ferment. My last hefeweizen is a little bit too banana forward to the point where I reduced fermentation temp on the current batch.

All I can say is this is a picture from last night and I enjoy being able to enjoy a beer of this quality in my house and malt selection and mash regimen is a part of it. I believe low oxygen brewing practices and careful control of pitch rate and fermentation are the real keys to success of course.

 

[Gunshowgreg]

I don't know how important a long step mashing regimen is, but I can say that every time I have tried to shorten it or just use infusion with Hefeweizen, the results are simply worse in some way, either not enough clove, or a lacklustre head. What I have settled on is a 30 minute rest at 114, 15 @ 122 for protein, and then a long beta rest, 90 minutes. My system tends to run a little cooler than where I set it. The last 6 hefeweizen I have brewed have finished at 1.008, I basically don't even need to check anymore.

Brewing this way, I will reliably have a huge amount of protein sludge on the elements at the end of the brew day. It doesn't scorch, but it gets thick and it takes a good amount of scrubbing even with hot PBW to get it off. You've been warned.

I would be curious what OP is looking for in an open ferment. My last hefeweizen is a little bit too banana forward to the point where I reduced fermentation temp on the current batch.

All I can say is this is a picture from last night and I enjoy being able to enjoy a beer of this quality in my house and malt selection and mash regimen is a part of it. I believe low oxygen brewing practices and careful control of pitch rate and fermentation are the real keys to success of course.

View attachment 868033

Thanks for the heads up. The open fermentation is something I wanted to toy with and have read several people on here mention that It aids in enhanced esters and banana flavor and aroma. It’s my understanding also that there are the breweries in Germany that brew Hefeweizen this way also and is achievable on a home brew level. I guess it’s all an experiment at the end of the day. That beer looks really good!

 

[Bassman2003]

The main issue with any mash and scorching with electric systems is if you are running the elements before gelatinization temps have been reached. This presents a real problem for hefeweizen. The problem is the long run from the low temp rests up to beta or higher. The elements have to run a long time and there is a lot of particulate matter floating around that ends up sticking to the hot surfaces. Too much temperature differential between the metal and the liquid.

If you a truly single vessel it is tough. I mash in an Anvil but also have an HLT. So I infuse up from the acid rest to beta. Then start my recirculation.

I operate the Foundry without the malt pipe. I use a Wilserbrewer bag and an adapted Brewzilla 35L false bottom. I double crush only the wheat grain and do not have to use rice hulls. My mill is set kind of wide at .042" This works well for me.

 

[Snuffy]

I never brewed all-grain until I went to an electric system with the mash pipe so I skipped the whole bag brewing thing. I usually have some grain bits + hop stuff stuck to the bottom of the unit that needs to be scrubbed away but it’s easy to do. Not after the mash, just after the boil. It seems to me the bag, being an element not considered in the design of these units, is the root of the scorching issues and should not be used in them. I can see how it might ease cleanup and spent grain disposal, but is it necessary to your process or just a preference? In other words, is the scorching just a result of mixing methods? Would any damage caused to your unit not be a result of unintended use? Substituting the bag for the pipe creates contact with the heating surface and I would think lead directly to an overheating situation. Lining the pipe with a bag adds another restriction to mash flow. The pipe is essentially the bag. Why add another?

 

[jdauria]

Yeah I watched his video and and it was his video that made me wonder if I was gonna scorch my stuff or not. What was the goo stuff?

I am guessing the goo was protein from the wheat, which leaves a slimy pile of it behind.

 

[Bassman2003]

I never brewed all-grain until I went to an electric system with the mash pipe so I skipped the whole bag brewing thing. I usually have some grain bits + hop stuff stuck to the bottom of the unit that needs to be scrubbed away but it’s easy to do. Not after the mash, just after the boil. It seems to me the bag, being an element not considered in the design of these units, is the root of the scorching issues and should not be used in them. I can see how it might ease cleanup and spent grain disposal, but is it necessary to your process or just a preference? In other words, is the scorching just a result of mixing methods? Would any damage caused to your unit not be a result of unintended use? Substituting the bag for the pipe creates contact with the heating surface and I would think lead directly to an overheating situation. Lining the pipe with a bag adds another restriction to mash flow. The pipe is essentially the bag. Why add another?

The malt pipe or the bag perform the same task - to hold the grain in a position where the liquid can get to it and through it, but keep it contained. So it is a preference as I did not get good performance from the malt pipe. So I do not use it at all. The bag does not touch the element because I added a false bottom to the Foundry.

Do you mash at temperatures below gel temps? That is where the problems arise.