Scaling up your brews.

[Jag75]

I've been asked to brew a few of my beers which are 5 to 5.5 gallons to 1bbl and more . I'm curious to those of you that brew avg homebrew sizes and brewery size batches about grain bill , hop utilization and yeast amount. For instance in my IPA I use .75 oz of Magnum @60. If I brewed a 1bbl batch and just scaled up to say 5.5 oz it would be way too bitter . So there is a % you go by and is it way different in aroma hops as well.

 

[bleme]

Our local brewpub holds a contest every year. The winning homebrew gets brewed on their 10 barrel system. It doesn't scale directly. They plug the 5 gallon recipe into their software and it tweaks it and scales it for the bigger system.

 

[Jag75]

Our local brewpub holds a contest every year. The winning homebrew gets brewed on their 10 barrel system. It doesn't scale directly. They plug the 5 gallon recipe into their software and it tweaks it and scales it for the bigger system.

That's seems like a great program

 

[PrrCabin]

I believe Beersmith 3 has a scale option. So you can scale up or down.
For best results I would have a 1bbl equipment profile built first then scale it to that.

 

[CodeSection]

I've been asked to brew a few of my beers which are 5 to 5.5 gallons to 1bbl and more . I'm curious to those of you that brew avg homebrew sizes and brewery size batches about grain bill , hop utilization and yeast amount. For instance in my IPA I use .75 oz of Magnum @60. If I brewed a 1bbl batch and just scaled up to say 5.5 oz it would be way too bitter . So there is a % you go by and is it way different in aroma hops as well.

I have been scaling down...just the opposite. A client had one of the first breweries in our town 25+ years ago. I have been scaling down his 270 gallons (~8.7 barrels) recipes. I have been using BS2 and BS3. It is a snap. You can easily match the OG, IBUs, color, estimated ABV and bitterness ratio. Brewfather scales recipes as well....

For me, the programs make it so much easier.

 

[downzero]

Beersmith will work for this but your equipment variables need to be spot on! The brewmaster on the big system will know how it performs and you will need that experience to get any meaningful info out of it.

 

[bleme]

Beersmith will work for this but your equipment variables need to be spot on! The brewmaster on the big system will know how it performs and you will need that experience to get any meaningful info out of it.

Exactly! Randy has been using this equipment for 20 years now and knows all the quirks. While a homebrewer bases most of their process on time, he goes almost completely by volume.

 

[CodeSection]

Beersmith will work for this but your equipment variables need to be spot on! The brewmaster on the big system will know how it performs and you will need that experience to get any meaningful info out of it.

Actually, surprisingly it wasn't that difficult. My client kept excellent notes on the recipe's pH, volumes, etc. so it was fairly easy to build a profile matching his equipment and process. Again, I have been scaling down. Once or twice I scaled up. Again, it wasn't hard to build a profile to use for scaling purposes. I suspect it may be difficult if one does not have any info on the larger or smaller equipment.

Perhaps it is easier for me now that I have been brewing awhile and using the software. If I was just learning on BS2 or BS3, that is completely another story. The nice thing with BS2 and BS3, they have slide bars that can help dial in items. You can dial in items on Brewfather as well.

 

[kevin58]

Exactly! Randy has been using this equipment for 20 years now and knows all the quirks. While a homebrewer bases most of their process on time, he goes almost completely by volume.

When setting up your equipment profile in Beersmith you do use volumes. As long as you have the profiles set up you can scale between batch sizes with the click of a mouse.

 

[downzero]

Actually, surprisingly it wasn't that difficult. My client kept excellent notes on the recipe's pH, volumes, etc. so it was fairly easy to build a profile matching his equipment and process. Again, I have been scaling down. Once or twice I scaled up. Again, it wasn't hard to build a profile to use for scaling purposes. I suspect it may be difficult if one does not have any info on the larger or smaller equipment.

Perhaps it is easier for me now that I have been brewing awhile and using the software. If I was just learning on BS2 or BS3, that is completely another story. The nice thing with BS2 and BS3, they have slide bars that can help dial in items. You can dial in items on Brewfather as well.

Yes, but you needed his notes. He has the data on efficiency, hop utilization, and performance of his tanks, you input that and Beersmith will do the rest. If your equipment profile is off, though, it'll never be right.

 

[CodeSection]

Yes, but you needed his notes. He has the data on efficiency, hop utilization, and performance of his tanks, you input that and Beersmith will do the rest......

Correct. If you have the necessary information, it is easy to scale. Obviously, if you do not have any information on the other system you are trying to scale to or from, it will be impossible to scale accurately....

I'm not sure what your point is....I seriously doubt anyone thinks they can scale a recipe without information on the other system and process.

 

[Jag75]

I can understand needing the info on how a certain system does efficiency wise for grain bill but does it really matter for hops? That's my main question. I've heard a good rule of thumb is you go up to approximately 33% for bittering hops .

 

[CodeSection]

I can understand needing the info on how a certain system does efficiency wise for grain bill but does it really matter for hops? That's my main question. I've heard a good rule of thumb is you go up to approximately 33% for bittering hops .

I have never read that and I have a hard time envisioning keeping the same bitterness ratio of the recipe if you do not adjust the hops to the volume and system, rather than using a percentage that doesn't relate to anything.

 

[Jag75]

I have never read that and I have a hard time envisioning keeping the same bitterness ratio of the recipe if you do not adjust the hops to the volume and system, rather than using a percentage that doesn't relate to anything.

This is what I've read and heard. that a bigger system will get more utilization then a smaller one because of the size . I guess more wort is in contact pulling more of the acids . Idk it seems like theres no straight answer out there. I guess the only way is to scale up my hops 6 times and seeing what happens.

Would you think 5.5oz Magnum @60 would be too bitter for a 1 bbl batch?

 

[CodeSection]

This is what I've read and heard. that a bigger system will get more utilization then a smaller one because of the size . I guess more wort is in contact pulling more of the acids . Idk it seems like theres no straight answer out there. I guess the only way is to scale up my hops 6 times and seeing what happens.

Would you think 5.5oz Magnum @60 would be too bitter for a 1 bbl batch?

You must calculate for the other system...volume (pre-boil and post boil), boil off rate, loss to trub, etc. Otherwise, focusing just on the hops for the moment, your bitterness ratio (IBU/SG) WILL be off. I know of no other way to replicate and scale a recipe.

Rather than arbitrarily using a percentage, go to the links below and download the two programs and try building two profiles. One for your system and one for the system you are trying to scale to. I'm guessing you have an idea of the system you are scaling to, so it should be easy to get the needed additional information for a profile from the brewmaster. Give him/her a call....

http://beersmith.com/download-beersmith/ 21 day trial

https://brewfather.app/ 30 day trial

Good luck!

 

[Jag75]

Thanks everyone !

Have a Merry Christmas

 

[downzero]

Correct. If you have the necessary information, it is easy to scale. Obviously, if you do not have any information on the other system you are trying to scale to or from, it will be impossible to scale accurately....

I'm not sure what your point is....I seriously doubt anyone thinks they can scale a recipe without information on the other system and process.

I have certainly been to many brewpubs where it's obvious the brewmaster used to be a homebrewer and is struggling scaling his recipes. I just went to one last weekend. Software makes it look easy, but without meticulous information from actual batches to build a proper equipment profile, scaling can be very difficult. I know you think this is easy because the information you sought was readily available, but this is the greatest challenge I would face if offered the ability to use a real brewing setup to make my beers.

 

[CodeSection]

@Jag75, I came across these links and thought they may be helpful when you are trying to replicate your recipe to a larger scale. The IBU/SG or BU:GU ratio is really important when scaling the recipe if you are trying to achieve the same results.

You need to calculate it rather than just arbitrarily increasing your hops by six times or go up on the amount of hops by 33%. The goal is to have the same bitterness ratio that is in your larger scale recipe be the same as in your smaller scale recipe.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/who-uses-the-bu-gu-ratio-for-formulating-recipes.643964/

http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_ratio.html

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bu-gu-ratios.117821/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bitterness-ratio-question.61682/

 

[Jag75]

Thank you @CodeSection