Russian River Brewing Sucks

[homebrewdad]

The price of a pint is all relative. Those of us paying far more than $3.25 for a pint have a hard time sympathizing with the OP. That said, I think it's misplaced to counter his argument by effectively saying 'you're paying a lot less than me so be happy and shut up'. Though I don't necessarily agree the OP's comments I do see his point…which is not that some of us are paying more/less than anyone else. It's that if costs for ingredients is going down why isn't the price of a pint?

As one other poster correctly pointed out it's economics 101 in all its glory. Supply/demand, costs of (non)ingredients, cost of doing business in CA, taxes, insurance, etc. etc. etc. It all adds up to price increases. More goes in to the cost of a pint of beer than just the ingredients. No real mystery here. Now, if the OP can convince more people to take his side then demand will drop, as will the price of a pint. I'm sure RR has altruistic intentions and wants to make great beer, but it means nothing if they are not profitable. Altruism won't pay the bills. To be honest, when the OP said it was $3.25 I couldn't believe it was that low given the demand and that it is CA which ain't exactly the friendliest place to do business.

Because demand is sky high for the product, and the company is using that revenue to turn a greater profit. This is capitalism.

If demand were low, a smart company would lower prices whenever possible to satisfy customers. Demand is through the roof; this is not necessary.

Do note that just because grain prices may be lower does not mean there is less overhead. fuel prices, energy prices, insurance prices have ALL gone up noticeably in the last year.

Also note that $3.25 would be cheap here in Alabama - and a dollar goes much farther here thanin California. $3.25 is an inexpensive price for BMC here. There are zero craft beers available at that price point.

 

[brewit2it]

I am only a short drive from RR, as I live in East Bay. I moved to CA about 9 months ago fro WI, and just having the privilege of being able to go to the store or drive to the brew pub and get RR beers is great.

So far as the price: If you don't like it, no one is making you buy it. Instead of ranting about it on a forum that has a lot of respect for both the brewery and the brewer, why not just simply forego purchasing RR beers? More for all of us that have absolutely no problem paying a fair price for an incredibly well made beer. In fact, I can't think of a single thing that HASN'T gone up in price. You want to know what serious price increase is? Try moving from Milwaukee, WI to Bay Area, CA. That will make paying a little more for top quality beer feel like pennies falling out of your pocket.

So far as the GMO grain: they probably use it because it is the highest quality. It is likely GMO to produce grain that is more resistant to attack by bugs and bacteria. A lot of GMO foods are used precisely to circumvent the use of pesticides. Not exactly sure what your beef is with that...

Exactly. I am all for GM food and brew. And 3.25 for a pint of RR is way way below average price for BMC where I live and in fact pretty much anywhere. And when you consider the pub you are getting it at is in one of the most expensive areas of the country it is that much more of a deal.

In fact I'm starting a movement;

We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!

Say it with me

We Want 3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want 3.25.........

 

[shoreman]

The only problem is that this whole argument is based on the assumption that "the little guy" has "forgotten what got them there." Its pretty pompous to assume that you know the motivations of a business and just declare that they've forgotten where they came from. Its pretty pompous to pretend that you understand every last cost that the brewer is facing and confidently state that they're just ripping you off as opposed to trying to stay in business, and gosh, maybe make a living.

If people don't think brewers should care about profit, that's fine. But accept that what would come with that is a lot less beer, because you'd only have brewers that could afford to brew as a hobby. As much as it is craft, it is also a living for these people.

You used pompous too many times for me to take this post serious. You really didn't understand what I meant in my post & frankly I don't have the time to spell it out to you more clearly.

 

[ktblunden]

Do note that just because grain prices may be lower does not mean there is less overhead. fuel prices, energy prices, insurance prices have ALL gone up noticeably in the last year.

This needs to be stressed. OP has offered no proof that RR's costs have dropped significantly while their prices go up. He throws out claims of GMO malts, which no one can seem to verify and says nothing about the actual high driver ingredient in beer: hops. RR uses a lot of (shortage-prone) hops in their beers. Malt prices may have gone down (I have no idea if they have or not), but hop prices are going up.

 

[TyTanium]

He throws out claims...

*She

 

[BrewKnurd]

You used pompous too many times for me to take this post serious. You really didn't understand what I meant in my post & frankly I don't have the time to spell it out to you more clearly.

Can't handle a word being used twice? Ok, good to know.

the argument you made was that rr its obviously forgetting where they came from. You provided no evidence for that claim other than an increase in price. That is my point.

if you don't have time to clarify, that's fine. I'm not sure why it would take that long, but you're obviously very busy.

 

[ktblunden]

*She

Huh, so it is. I stand corrected.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

Well if have to choose I want my beer for free.. but I can´t get for free... so then I have to buy it and if a like a particular beer that is hard to get (try to get any russian river in europe) I´ll just have to pay the price is worth. I think those guys worked their a*** off to make great beer and now they have a name, so if they want to charge 3.5 por a pint (here that´s really cheap that´s what you pay for a BMC pint) they have all the rigth to do so without anyone bitching about it... if you don´t like the prices or the beer anymore well you can always stop going there... it´s a free country... but please don´t ask me to agree with you because I can´t.

 

[brewit2it]

This needs to be stressed. OP has offered no proof that RR's costs have dropped significantly while their prices go up. He throws out claims of GMO malts, which no one can seem to verify and says nothing about the actual high driver ingredient in beer: hops. RR uses a lot of (shortage-prone) hops in their beers. Malt prices may have gone down (I have no idea if they have or not), but hop prices are going up.

GM CROP INFO

Barley

Research: Fungal resistance, modified product characteristics, herbicide tolerance

Field trials: EU 9, USA, Canada, Iceland, Australia

Approvals: None

Perspective: To date, a commercial use of GM barley cannot be expected to date.

 

[flatfour64]

A few things here:

1. If you want to stir things up on HBT, talk s*** about RR.

2. If you want one of the fastest growing threads on HBT, talk s*** about RR.

3. One other thing that sucks just as bad as a $3.25 pint of good beer from RR is that in some cars you have to press AND HOLD DOWN the window button to make the window go all the way down on a hot day. (Luckily, for me, my BMW has the one touch button for all four windows... whew!)

Someone talked about 1st world problems several pages ago, and I agree! I would have quoted it here, but I can't find it in the 16 pages of posts now!!!

I really do think the OP posted this as a joke????

 

[FredTheNuke]

Damn that's a good profit margin! I brew in 15 gallon batches of Lager with 35lbs of barley in the grain bill and one pound of Czech Saaz hops per batch (all top notch ingredients and slant my own yeast). My bottom line including propane is roughly $4.00 per gallon for the final product including the DME for a four stage yeast starter. At $7 per 10oz serving I'd make a KILLING in the commercial world!!!

 

[bob1852]

Damn that's a good profit margin! I brew in 15 gallon batches of Lager with 35lbs of barley in the grain bill and one pound of Czech Saaz hops per batch (all top notch ingredients and slant my own yeast). My bottom line including propane is roughly $4.00 per gallon for the final product including the DME for a four stage yeast starter. At $7 per 10oz serving I'd make a KILLING in the commercial world!!!

How much are you paying for insurance, rent, storage, license/fees, transport, distribution, kegs, CO2, utilities, marketing, staff salary, etc.? Still at $4/gal?

 

[jtakacs]

if you don't like it, don't support it.

for the record, natalie and vinnie do a great job with the community and run a good local business that gives back to the community, provides a product that people really like and push the envelope of brewing in many respects. i think the criticism of their cancer efforts being disingenuous because you created a rumor of GMO crops is lame.

its fair to criticize them for sure (i don't like the carb level off their taps for most beers and the service is sketchy if you're not a regular) but i would never begrudge them for making a profit.

on the plus side, they've got their all-simcoe pale on tap right now and it's hitting its stride and one of the best beers they've ever made imo (i like it better than pliny). plus the all 402 pale is damned good too. hmmm... might be time to walk over there.

 

[GLWIII]

Because demand is sky high for the product, and the company is using that revenue to turn a greater profit. This is capitalism.

If demand were low, a smart company would lower prices whenever possible to satisfy customers. Demand is through the roof; this is not necessary.

Do note that just because grain prices may be lower does not mean there is less overhead. fuel prices, energy prices, insurance prices have ALL gone up noticeably in the last year.

Also note that $3.25 would be cheap here in Alabama - and a dollar goes much farther here thanin California. $3.25 is an inexpensive price for BMC here. There are zero craft beers available at that price point.

Exactly, we are both saying the same thing.

 

[hopsicle]

I'd love to support their product mere.

Please start shipping to Fort Worth, Texas.

 

[elpenoso]

When is the last time you have bought something that wasn't cheaper at some point in the past? This thread is useless.

 

[ITz-Supreme]

Shut up and get to the chopper, I pay 6.50 a pint for RR or good quality beers but lucky for me I'm a home brewer so I MAKE MY OWN BEER so shut up stop crying and do work son

 

[mlyday]

OP sounds like a anti capitalism liberal to me. Most restuarants around here are 4.50 a pint, and thats for just the run of the mill stuff.

The beautiful thing about a free market is that it will fix itself. If they charge more than people are willing to pay, people wont buy it and they will have to lower the price.

If they dont then someone else will come along and take there place.

 

[rockfish42]

OP is a troll apparently, since they haven't said anything after the GMO complaint was disproved. I remember that dry hopping thread somebody mentioned as well, and the OP was a complete EAC about the topic.

 

[ITz-Supreme]

OP is a troll apparently, since they haven't said anything after the GMO complaint was disproved. I remember that dry hopping thread somebody mentioned as well, and the OP was a complete EAC about the topic.

I agree let's get the pitchforks and torches

 

[wailingguitar]

A call to Cargill answered the GMO question, according to the product specialist I spoke with "No, we don't have anything like that. This question came up a couple weeks ago with the sales manager too. To our knowledge there is NO [brewer's] barley that is GMO at all"

So, that answers that... OP was misinformed regarding GMO brewer's malt and Cargill

Pricing? I asked them for a price breakdown (I actually have a project in the fire, I would have contacted them on this anyway). When I can speak with a sales rep, I will compare to other suppliers and see about the comparison. Even if they should turn out to be the cheapest, I would be surprised if it were by much. Briess and Great Western are very closely priced, I doubt Cargill would be much different.

$3.25/ pint is dirt cheap Standard price across the country for a pint in the mid-nineties was $3. Most places now it seems to be $4.

Once again I will reiterate that profit margins on bottled beer are RAZOR thin... pennies per bottle once ingredient costs, labor, packaging and general overhead are accounted for. Keg profits are better, but still low... A per keg cost of $70 is a good ballpark (includes labor and utilities to produce the beer, but not general overhead which still needs to be covered-things like loan payoffs on equipment/cooperage, rent, salary of non production personnel, etc.). If a brewery has to sell through a distributor they can expect to get $95 for that keg. Lets say the other costs add $10 to the brewery's cost, they make maybe $15 on that keg. That is a ridiculously small margin! IF the brewery is lucky enough to be able to self-distribute, they could sell the keg for $150. That brings the margin into a more sane range, but it is also a LOT more work. Essentially, you have to sell a LOT of beer to make a profit! If a small brewery can sell over the bar, the profit on that beer is probably carrying everything else. Vince Cottone of Sound Brew, a well known industry consultant, suggests that the minimum output for a production brewery to be profitable is 3k bbl/year... even that could be pushing it IMO.

 

[jtakacs]

facts really do destroy a good thread.

 

[passedpawn]

facts really do destroy a good thread.

Not destroyed until hitler gets pulled into it.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Not destroyed until hitler gets pulled into it.

.....and on post 173, Godwin spoke.:cross:

 

[Jukas]

I live about 10 Min from Russian River, and I go at least once a month. Their beer is no more expensive than any other brewery in this area. I am opening a Nano just up the road, and I will be charging really high prices for local craft beer. If you want really good beer and you want it to be cheap, make it. I have paid over 10k in permits alone, grain is not cheap, and employees are over the top expensive. I am doing it because I love brewing. Sorry for the rant, but if you are going to complain about Russian River, complain about the bartender that never has anything nice to say and feels to important to be friendly, not about their prices.

Random aside, are you the one who's going into Barlow when/if they finally open?

 

[John1337]

I have not had a RR beer nor have I seen one. I surely will be on the lookout though. I see that Pliny is at the top of a lot list here. I'll trust that.

I think I will take the position that they were under valuing their beer at $2.50 when it should have been at least $7 a pint. What a great gesture on their part. At $3.25 they are still going above and beyond. Look at how well they treat their patrons.

As in life...a lot can be summed up in one word...perspective!

 

[Jukas]

I somewhat agree with the OP, regardless if his intention was to troll. Craft breweries for the most part try to steer those mainstream drinkers towards the 'better' side of beer, and one of the factors consumers have to deal with is a higher price point, fine. But when profit becomes the intention, it takes away the 'craft' in craftbeers IMO. I've had many of RR beers, will i stop purchasing them? No... but i will be more inclined to drink others before RR.

You must not be aware of the purpose behind a business.

A business (also known as enterprise or firm) is an organization engaged in the trade of goods, services, or both to consumers.[1] Businesses are predominant in capitalist economies, where most of them are privately owned and administered to earn profit to increase the wealth of their owners. Businesses may also be not-for-profit or state-owned. A business owned by multiple individuals may be referred to as a company, although that term also has a more precise meaning.
The etymology of "business" relates to the state of being busy either as an individual or society as a whole, doing commercially viable and profitable work. The term "business" has at least three usages, depending on the scope — the singular usage to mean a particular organization; the generalized usage to refer to a particular market sector, "the music business" and compound forms such as agribusiness; and the broadest meaning, which encompasses all activity by the community of suppliers of goods and services. However, the exact definition of business, like much else in the philosophy of business, is a matter of debate and complexity of meanings.

I'd say that 70 BBL capacity still qualifies them as a craft/micro brewery and if you look at the other local "craft/micro" breweries (Lagunitas, Aleworks, Bear Republic, Hopmunk etc) as well as other local bars/pubs the median price for a pint of beer is $4.50 - $5.50 normally and $3 - $4 during happy hour (FYI none of those are for 20oz pours).

I'd say Russian River is well within those guidelines. Add in they've been able to keep their prices stable while costs have gone up and adding a new production facility. Trying to pass off a comparison today's prices to when a brewery opened 8 years ago without exploring all factors is just idiotic.

Add in that Vinnie is a hell of a nice guy and I'll still gladly drink RR beers occasionally. Plus I've heard that they give happy hour pricing all day every day for AHA members (I'm not one, so take that with a grain of salt).

Bottom line is, if you don't like their business practice don't give them you're business, but don't expect rational people to get behind your irrational arguements.

 

[aygov]

But we're all craft maaaan...and it's like we're all brewing together maaaan... it's like we're one big brewery maaan so share the beer maaan. Besides beer comes from nature maaan..and no one owns nature!

 

[Jukas]

Will check that out in my July visit.

Also check out Lagunitas in Petaluma when you're here. I really enjoy their tap room and beers.

If you're a wine guy as well, we have a ton of smaller, fantastic local wineries.

 

[BeerDoctor5]

Again for Oldworld, which malts are GMO from Cargill? They certainly sell GMO corn and soybeans but AFAIK there are no commercially grown GMO barley malts.

I work in the barley and malt industry on the R&D side. Our stakeholders are the American Malting Barley Association (AMBA) and other large breweries. I know AMBA does not recommend any variety of barley that is GMO. I don't know of any GMO barley that is available commercially. I mentioned a project to my advisor that involved adding a more thermostable beta-amylase gene to barley and was told that under no circumstances would the barley industry have anything to do with GMO crops. I would love to see a source to the OPs claim that RR is using GMOs.

On a side note I am in favor of feeding the world using less pesticides, fertilizers, and herbicides so therefore I am a proponent of GMO crops.