Russian River Brewing Sucks

[wailingguitar]

I don't think people should market a product as "craft beer" when it uses Cargill malts...But if I must stay on topic...

...

Not only does Cargill produce high quality malt, but they import high quality malt from other world-class maltsters. Your opinion of their corporation or policies (which are COMPLETELY separate from the brewer's supply section) does not mean in any way, shape or form that they produce an inferior product. Look at probrewer.com, you will find glowing reviews of their products and customer service. In 23 years in the industry I have NEVER known a single brewer that chose a malt supplier solely based upon price, I seriously doubt that RR chose Cargill because they are cheaper. Frankly, having done brewing logs and inventories and price breakdowns that would fill volumes, I can honestly say that malt prices and their differences are amongst the LEAST of a commercial brewery's cost concerns. The difference between pricing on domestic malt suppliers is measured in pennies. Suppliers are often chosen due to warehousing and distribution issues (i.e., who has the closest distribution and, hence, lowest delivered price).

I have not done business with them (Cargill), nor do I personally know anyone who works there. I DO know that you made blatantly false claims against them and RR (another company that I have no ties to) and you have yet to retract those statements. Cargill does not, as you claimed, produce GMO malt.. NO ONE DOES... and, therefore, the malt used by RR is also not GMO. You also claim Cargill malt is "junk"... Proof? As I said, lots of glowing reviews by people using it. Put up or shut up, as they say. If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you apologize for slandering them both before you continue your campaign. Once you have done so, I would be more than happy to hear a well thought out argument against the quality of Cargill malts... that would, of course, have to include some sort of proof of claims.

 

[wailingguitar]

Ok, so what I'm getting from this thread is: RR is the bad guy for trying to make a profit off their beers, they used a brand of malt that singlehandedly is responsible for the housing collapse, pesticides cause male pattern baldness and are generally are going to bring about the end of the world. Did I leave anything out?
I live in Beer Hell, and we essentially don't have a craft beer scene anywhere close to what most people have. I've read about RR, and their prices don't seem off base at all. As far as GMO grain goes, who here can tell the difference? I certainly cannot, and since nothing bad can live in beer, who cares if it's GMO or not. If it weren't for GM crops, half the food we eat wouldn't exist (namely corn). Oh, and to the OP; RDWHAHB, it's better than a sharp stick in the eye. That is all.....

Remember, there is NO GMO brewer's malt... so that original argument is moot. I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference, you're right.. thing is, there is no difference to tell since GMO brewer's malt is a fairy tale!

Oh, and btw, I love the opening of your post!

 

[bottlebomber]

I don't think people should market a product as "craft beer" when it uses Cargill malts...But if I must stay on topic...

I don't think you should sit in front of your computer tapping away about the evils of big business ag distributors and the breweries that support them, while clothed head to toe in the products of south east Asian sweat shops. But that's just me.

 

[brewit2it]

Boston Beer company is also considered "craft beer". Not sure what those words even mean anymore. Just be glad we live in the states and have such a great selection to choose from. Just got back from Mexico and as soon as I walked in the house I cracked open a can of Dales Pale Ale to wash the taste of cheap lager out of my mouth.

I kind of like Bohemia. The rest of it is refreshing but pretty much like BMC.

 

[TheBreweryUnderground]

I'm not a fan of Cargill either as they have some terrible business practices unrelated to their malting http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Cargill#section_4
Trying to find organic malt for a price I can afford now is difficult, the group buy I was a part of didn't offer any, but I'm looking more into buying local organic or at least non certified organic when I can and growing my own hops. I'm not sure what it's like on a commercial level, but the more organic breweries out there means more availability of organic ingredients. I'd like to hear Vinnie's take on it. We should spam his email to get him on here, maybe he'd throw out some recipes if we were nice.

 

[Dunerunner]

You guys buy beer? Why?

Because I don't own Russian river Brewing!

 

[BrewKnurd]

We should spam his email to get him on here, maybe he'd throw out some recipes if we were nice.

I feel like spamming his email is the exact opposite of being nice.

 

[TheBreweryUnderground]

Good point, hbt'ers who live close should show up at the brewpub and buy a few cases while mentioning it, the cases can then be shipped to me.

 

[wailingguitar]

FWIW, Cargill DOES sell some organic malt... they may not have produced it, but they do carry it (specifically Warminster, floor malted, organic, Marris-Otter).. I believe they have some others as well.

 

[bb239605]

Not only does Cargill produce high quality malt, but they import high quality malt from other world-class maltsters. Your opinion of their corporation or policies (which are COMPLETELY separate from the brewer's supply section) does not mean in any way, shape or form that they produce an inferior product. Look at probrewer.com, you will find glowing reviews of their products and customer service. In 23 years in the industry I have NEVER known a single brewer that chose a malt supplier solely based upon price, I seriously doubt that RR chose Cargill because they are cheaper. Frankly, have doing brewing logs and inventories and price breakdowns that would fill volumes, I can honestly say that malt prices and their differences are amongst the LEAST of a commercial brewery's cost concerns. The difference between pricing on domestic malt suppliers is measured in pennies. Suppliers are often chosen due to warehousing and distribution issues (i.e., who has the closest distribution and, hence, lowest delivered price).

I have not done business with them (Cargill), nor do I personally know anyone who works there. I DO know that you made blatantly false claims against them and RR (another company that I have no ties to) and you have yet to retract those statements. Cargill does not, as you claimed, produce GMO malt.. NO ONE DOES... and, therefore, the malt used by RR is also not GMO. You also claim Cargill malt is "junk"... Proof? As I said, lots of glowing reviews by people using it. Put up or shut up, as they say. If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you apologize for slandering them both before you continue your campaign. Once you have done so, I would be more than happy to hear a well thought out argument against the quality of Cargill malts... that would, of course, have to include some sort of proof of claims.

as an employee of Cargill, I must say that you are a hundred percent wrong in assuming we use GMO barley. You are also wrong in assuming we are cheap, low grade malt suppliers. In fact we are one of there more pricey suppliers because of our strict quality control and superior barley that we purchase from Canada and the United states.

Furthermore we have a great track record of working with our customers to deliver exactly what they want, when they want it, consistently time and time again.

Finally on our non business complaints. Most of them if not all are related to our other business areas namely meat and palm oil.

First we supply meat as demanded by our customers, that means you. Every time you go to a place with so called dubious meat quality you further the demand for cheap meat. You want it we supply it. You want high grade free range grass fed beef bitch at mcdonalds. Customers come to us with specs we just supply what they want. We can't sell a product no one wants, its a business.

And for our overseas operations, i.e. Palm oil, we follow all local laws and all American laws. Yes some rainforest destruction has occurred but no longer, we are on pace to be sustainable on our palm oil business.

Anyway a little off track but I get a little aggravated when Cargill catches a bad rap. We are private, quiet company that generally keeps to ourselves and that causes people to get the wrong idea.

Also we make the food you eat, you know what they say about the hand that feeds you.... (OK that parts a joke, couldn't resist)

* edit * these refutes aren't aimed at you wailingguitar it was just your response that prompted me to respond to all the negative Cargill related posts

 

[passedpawn]

as an employee of Cargill, I must say that you are a hundred percent wrong in assuming we use GMO barley. You are also wrong in assuming we are cheap, low grade malt suppliers. In fact we are one of there more pricey suppliers because of our strict quality control and superior barley that we purchase from Canada and the United states.

Furthermore we have a great track record of working with our customers to deliver exactly what they want, when they want it, consistently time and time again.

Finally on our non business complaints. Most of them if not all are related to our other business areas namely meat and palm oil.

First we supply meat as demanded by our customers, that means you. Every time you go to a place with so called dubious meat quality you further the demand for cheap meat. You want it we supply it. You want high grade free range grass fed beef bitch at mcdonalds. Customers come to us with specs we just supply what they want. We can't sell a product no one wants, its a business.

And for our overseas operations, i.e. Palm oil, we follow all local laws and all American laws. Yes some rainforest destruction has occurred but no longer, we are on pace to be sustainable on our palm oil business.

Anyway a little off track but I get a little aggravated when Cargill catches a bad rap. We are private, quiet company that generally keeps to ourselves and that causes people to get the wrong idea.

Also we make the food you eat, you know what they say about the hand that feeds you.... (OK that parts a joke, couldn't resist)

Right on! Thanks for responding, that's perfect.

(in defense of wailingguitar, he was not the target of this cargill response, it was the OP; such is collateral damage)

 

[wailingguitar]

LOL couldn't figure out how to totally delete message so.....

 

[wailingguitar]

Right on! Thanks for responding, that's perfect.

(in defense of wailingguitar, he was not the target of this cargill response, it was the OP; such is collateral damage)

LOL thanks! I didn't see your post before I made mine!

 

[CargillMalt99]

Hello All. My name is Ron Ryan. I sell Cargill Malt for a living, and I sold the Cargill Malt to RR that they are using. I know a little bit about the beer making process as I spent the first half of my carreer in various brewing and management roles in two large breweries. I also discuss malting and barley issues on a daily basis with our plants, and with our customers. I heard about this thread from a colleague and have reviewed a number of the posts.

Firstly let me clarify that I am not here to promote our products, or to sell malt to anyone. Rather, I just want to clear up a few extremely blatant falsehoods and the resulting assumptions that have been made as a result of said falsehoods.

1. As a few other informed posters have indicated, Cargill does not not produce or sell GMO malt. Period. I cannot be any more clear than that. To be completely fair, I should add that our competitors don't either. So any suggestion that RR uses GMO malt is baseless.

2. Every brewer is different. Some are very aggressive on price negotiation and would try to talk you down if you offered them malt for free. At the other end of the spectrum are brewers that buy based on brewing characteristics and resulting beer flavor. Fortunately most craft brewers are in the latter group, and RR specifically most certainly is. To suggest that they buy Cargill malt because it's cheaper is another completely baseless claim.

So that about covers it I think. If anybody would like to challenge the veracity of my statements, please do so and I will respond.

Ron Ryan

 

[bob1852]

Thanks Ron.

 

[wailingguitar]

Hello All. My name is Ron Ryan. I sell Cargill Malt for a living, and I sold the Cargill Malt to RR that they are using. I know a little bit about the beer making process as I spent the first half of my carreer in various brewing and management roles in two large breweries. I also discuss malting and barley issues on a daily basis with our plants, and with our customers. I heard about this thread from a colleague and have reviewed a number of the posts.

Firstly let me clarify that I am not here to promote our products, or to sell malt to anyone. Rather, I just want to clear up a few extremely blatant falsehoods and the resulting assumptions that have been made as a result of said falsehoods.

1. As a few other informed posters have indicated, Cargill does not not produce or sell GMO malt. Period. I cannot be any more clear than that. To be completely fair, I should add that our competitors don't either. So any suggestion that RR uses GMO malt is baseless.

2. Every brewer is different. Some are very aggressive on price negotiation and would try to talk you down if you offered them malt for free. At the other end of the spectrum are brewers that buy based on brewing characteristics and resulting beer flavor. Fortunately most craft brewers are in the latter group, and RR specifically most certainly is. To suggest that they buy Cargill malt because it's cheaper is another completely baseless claim.

So that about covers it I think. If anybody would like to challenge the veracity of my statements, please do so and I will respond.

Ron Ryan

Well said, Ron!

 

[bottlebomber]

Welcome to the forum Cargill. This is the kind of feedback that really makes the difference to me. I will now always buy Cargill malt if I can find it, because if it's good enough for Russian River it's good enough for me. Thread prosted.

 

[vcilurzo]

Hi all, this is Vinnie from Russian River, I usually don't post on these sites, but, I felt this time it was warranted. I first want to say that I have no problem with someone not liking our beer, but, when someone spouts off with misinformation such as what's been said about Cargill malt I have take exception.

We do use malt from Cargill and I am proud to say that it is some of the highest quality malt we use. We specifically use Idapils from Cargill for our Belgian inspired and funky beers; this is pilsner malt which is malted from specific farms in Idaho making it a very small part of the Cargill malt operation. Aside from the quality, I like that I can actually meet these growers as their malt does not just go into a giant pool of barley, I know who grows my Idapils malt. I will also add that this malt is over 20 cents a pound more expensive as compared to our base malt we use for several other beers. For the record, Cargill 2-row is actually more expensive than other malt companies 2-row malt, all of which have exceptional quality and we are proud to get 2-row malt from several malt houses.

I saw that Ron Ryan posted early, let me say this, not only do we not beat up our suppliers on price for any ingredients or materials we buy, we buy based on quality, we are also investing in the emperical knowledge the company representatives (in this case Cargill) bring to us. In the case of Ron Ryan my Cargill rep, I don't know of a more knowledge malt rep, in fact, if there was a Jeopardy challenge of malt reps I would put all my money on Ron Ryan, period. Not only does my Cargill rep supply me with awesome ingredients, his knowledge base is fantastic and second to none.

I finally want to add the the orginal person that posted this thread was incorrect, we never were $2.50 for a 20oz pint. If we were, we would not be in business now.

Thanks for your time,

Vinnie

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks Vinnie, Ron, and everyone else who's provided actual FACTS on this whole issue.

The only issue that hasn't been resolved is the question (that wasn't brought up until much later by the OP) of Cargill's business practices. And that, as far as I'm concerned, at the least belongs on the debate section of this board, and not in this section. Been pretty sufficiently proven that every single claim the OP's made was false, and as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed.

 

[badbrew]

I wish you guys sold bombers or 4 packs at Whole Foods. WF jacks everything up as it is so the 12ers are out of my range.

 

[bottlebomber]

Well as long as Vinnie is here and we're wishing for things... *takes deep breath*

 

[HopSong]

Props to Vinnie and RR Brewing.. I'm a fan.

Don't know if you will be at BeerFest 21 in SR.. but, I can hope.. I hope, I hope

In the meantime.. I hope the blowhard is "put in his place"

 

[shoreman]

This post should be noted in the sociology study of message boards at MIT. It's a classic.

 

[wailingguitar]

Ok, so RR is using Cargill's IdaPils... this is one of their malts that I know by reputation. IdaPils is made with 2-row Harrington, grown, as noted above, in small quantities in specific places. I think it is more than safe to say this is a high quality malt... I am thinking it would make a VERY nice Helles... hmmm... wheels are turning!

Also, may I say I appreciate Ron and Vinnie (and whoever the other Cargill employee was) coming and posting here. Well done, folks. Because of the personal attention here I can see Cargill added to my short list of suppliers (grown now from 2 to 3) for a project that is in the fire...

 

[bob1852]

Well as long as Vinnie is here and we're wishing for things... *takes deep breath*

Like, please distribute to Arizona?

 

[TyTanium]

What a fantastic thread. Thank you.

 

[whitehause]

I've never known RR to be anything but up-front with the homebrewing community, and this is just another example of that. He took the time to respond to concerns about his company, in person, to what is most likely a relatively small portion of his overall consumers. It's business practices like this that will always keep me going back.

Thank you Vinnie

 

[passedpawn]

If you haven't heard Vinnie speak (he's a great speaker), listen to this. Any home brewer who's dreamed of having their own brewery will love this story. Just do it.

Vinnie Cilurzo NHC Keynote Address

 

[wailingguitar]

as an employee of Cargill, I must say that you are a hundred percent wrong in assuming we use GMO barley. You are also wrong in assuming we are cheap, low grade malt suppliers. In fact we are one of there more pricey suppliers because of our strict quality control and superior barley that we purchase from Canada and the United states.

Furthermore we have a great track record of working with our customers to deliver exactly what they want, when they want it, consistently time and time again.

Finally on our non business complaints. Most of them if not all are related to our other business areas namely meat and palm oil.

First we supply meat as demanded by our customers, that means you. Every time you go to a place with so called dubious meat quality you further the demand for cheap meat. You want it we supply it. You want high grade free range grass fed beef bitch at mcdonalds. Customers come to us with specs we just supply what they want. We can't sell a product no one wants, its a business.

And for our overseas operations, i.e. Palm oil, we follow all local laws and all American laws. Yes some rainforest destruction has occurred but no longer, we are on pace to be sustainable on our palm oil business.

Anyway a little off track but I get a little aggravated when Cargill catches a bad rap. We are private, quiet company that generally keeps to ourselves and that causes people to get the wrong idea.

Also we make the food you eat, you know what they say about the hand that feeds you.... (OK that parts a joke, couldn't resist)

* edit * these refutes aren't aimed at you wailingguitar it was just your response that prompted me to respond to all the negative Cargill related posts

I appreciate that, I tried to have your back through all this! Am hoping to do some business with Cargill Malting in the future too! :rockin: