Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

[kgressler]

Well I left one of the pet bottles out in warmer temps upstairs (70-72) just to see how stable the ones in my cooler basement will be once it warms up. It has carbed up pretty well. Im just gonna put it in a small rubbermaid container and check it everyday. Hopefully it will hold up well a a minimum it will let me know when I need to throw them in the fridge.

 

[slimreturns]

Okay so I'm doing a 2.5 gallon batch from pasturized cider. The initial gravity reading was 1.050. I'm going to use Danstar BRY-97. So should I add about a half pound of dextrose?
Also I have to bottle, so can I prime then bottle or is this a bad idea?

 

[CvilleKevin]

Okay so I'm doing a 2.5 gallon batch from pasturized cider. The initial gravity reading was 1.050. I'm going to use Danstar BRY-97. So should I add about a half pound of dextrose?

4oz of sugar per gallon raises the sg by 10 points, so assuming you want to start at 1.060, that would be 10oz. I generally use a mix of 2/3 turbinado and 1/3 dextrose when I'm adding sugar. IMHO, that is the closest taste to natural apple sugar, although its not a huge difference compared to using all turbinado or just regular granulated sugar. I dont like the taste of straight dextrose quite as much for cider, but again its not a huge difference, so if its what you have on hand it works OK

Also I have to bottle, so can I prime then bottle or is this a bad idea?

It depends on what your goal is. If you want a dry cider with minimal effort, then fermenting all the way dry and priming before bottling to get carbonation is about the most foolproof method. In that case, I'd use S04 instead of BRY97. The advantage of BRY97 is that it is more likely than other yeasts to stall out before it hits 1.000, so its easier to make a sweet or semi-sweet cider with it. Carbonating a semi sweet cider is a lot easier and less dangerous if you have a keg setup vs bottles. Bottle carbonating a semi sweet is doable but requires understanding of nutrient reduction and a lot more attention to minimize the risk of broken bottles. It has been discussed many times in this thread, so I would suggest reading some of the past posts, as well as the sticky on bottle pasteurization before attempting to do something like this.

 

[slimreturns]

Kegging is an impossibility for me here in Korea. I've bottled everything I've brewed up to this point with no problems and I figured that priming with just 50g or less of priming sugar would put me in a "safe zone" for bottling. As far as yeast, for some reason S-04 is not easy to find here, so what I have is BRY-97, S-33, S-23, and S-05.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I've bottled everything I've brewed up to this point with no problems and I figured that priming with just 50g or less of priming sugar would put me in a "safe zone" for bottling.

Are you looking to make a dry cider or sweet/semi sweet cider? Unlike beer, all of the sugars in apple juice are fermentable. If you want to bottle carbonate, then the easiest way is to ferment to dryness and use priming sugar. Bottle carbing a sweet or semi sweet cider is more difficult.

 

[slimreturns]

Yeah, I think my original idea was to ferment for a couple of weeks (or until dry) then cold crash in secondary, then bottle with priming sugar. Does this make sense? Or am I just over thinking the whole process?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

That'll work just fine, you just have to make sure fermentation is complete before bottling.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Yeah, I think my original idea was to ferment for a couple of weeks (or until dry) then cold crash in secondary, then bottle with priming sugar. Does this make sense? Or am I just over thinking the whole process?

If you are making a dry cider, then you just need to ferment it out, wait for it to clear a while and then bottle with some priming sugar. If you are not trying to stop the cider before it finishes fermenting, you can skip the cold crash. The cider will clear up for a while on its own when it is done fermenting.

Of the yeasts you mentioned S23 works the best for a dry cider IMHO. However it likes cooler fermentation temps (55-60), or else it tends to get stinky. I've never tried BRY97 for a dry cider. It works great for a sweeter cider, but you might have to add some nutrient to get it to ferment all the way out.

 

[slimreturns]

I DO have 2oz of yeast nutrient I can use. Since I'm fermenting a "half batch" could I also use a whole pack of yeast to help ferment out, or would the ammount of yeast have no effect?

 

[CvilleKevin]

I DO have 2oz of yeast nutrient I can use. Since I'm fermenting a "half batch" could I also use a whole pack of yeast to help ferment out, or would the ammount of yeast have no effect?

You can use the whole pack of yeast and then add nutrient later if you need to. Depending on your juice you might not need it, but it would be good to have on hand just in case the fermentation sticks

 

[slimreturns]

Great. Thanks for all your help. I'll update in this thread as I go.

 

[kgressler]

You need to continue to keep an eye on these. Definately dont let them get any direct sun. I've lost a couple bottles that way. I sometimes lose a bottle or two in the summer when temps get up to 80+ in the basement, although no problems last summer. If you can put your bottles in bottle crates and set the bottom crate in a tupperware bin, that will make the cleanup a lot easier if you do forget and get a burst bottle. If you didnt sulfite these, I wouldn't recommend keeping them around much past April anyway. They might be OK for longer, but the risk of them turning increases over time

Pulled a couple up over the weekend and tossed them in the fridge for myself the the significant other. After a month sitting around 60-64 degrees.

There were pretty damned carbed. When I popped the top it gave maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch head in the bottle. Plenty carbonation and just a guess here but I assume this is a bit over carbed since none of the commercial ciders I've had carb up the bottle like this.
So I threw all of them in a fridge except for one just to see how long it will hold.
The flavor is pretty darn good. Maybe a bit dryer then I like. I crashed this at 1.008 I believe. My next batch I crashed around 1.010 or 1.012 if i remember correctly. So Hopefully I will get a bit more sweetness with this next batch.

Now I think I've asked this a few times or at least read a few threads about this but I will ask you.
The flavor was a bit thin or a slight watery taste. I read its due to the types of we are limited too.I really dont have access to a bunch of cider apples.
It appears that adding malic acid or tanan's is a fix for this. I also read about taking a acid test kit.
If I am limited to just a small variety if apples. golden red delicious, Rome beauty, Jonathan, and Winesap apples and i think Fuji. Would adding malic acid or tannins ect be a good option or because of the limited apples I have at my disposal and I just kinda up a creek without a paddle?
Any other advice that you can offer or send me in the right directing to experiment next season?

 

[hburgcider]

Never posted here but have a couple questions. I have 8 carboys of cider this year 4 of which I just started last week from a fresh pressing of late season apples.

I want to try the safale 05 cider with raspberries. What specific gravity should I put in raspberries and when should I stop it?

 

[CvilleKevin]

I tried bry97 and it won't seem to start. I pitched Friday night and it's at about 68 degrees. I have an extra pack of Nottingham, should I wait or just pitch notty? All 3 other buckets started (different yeast s04 s05 and cote de blanc)

When you say that the BRY97 wont seem to start, are you seeing any activity? Any krausen starting to build on the top or anything like that?

I started two batches of BRY97 a couple of weeks ago, along with 6 others. One of the BRY97 batches got a very late start. It started making a very thin line of krausen at the top of the carboy by 24 hours. The krausen continued to build, but it took 3 days before the fermentation was strong enough to move the airlock. All the other batches, including the other BRY97 batch were bubbling within 24hrs. Temps have been 56-66. The slow BRY97 is doing well now and tastes fine, so I'm not sure what slowed it down. I did buy both packs at different times, but both were fresh and well within date code. Lallemand might have produced a week batch. Notty used to have problems with slow starts before Lallemand changed packaging, but BRY97 uses same new packaging.

If you are not seeing any activity or very little krausen, I'd recommend pitching the Notty. I sometimes see slow starts with White Labs and as rule of thumb, I'll repitch if I dont see the airlock moving in 48hrs. In the case of my slow BRY97 batch, I waited because I could clearly see that the yeast was doing something, even though it was not moving the airlock. If your BRY97 is producing decent krausen, but not moving the airlock, that is odd but you will probably be OK (at least based on my experience). I had a decent head of krausen on mine before the airlock budged and that was 3 days in. You are almost 4 days in, so should at least have visible signs that the yeast is active

 

[CvilleKevin]

The flavor is pretty darn good. Maybe a bit dryer then I like. I crashed this at 1.008 I believe. My next batch I crashed around 1.010 or 1.012 if i remember correctly. So Hopefully I will get a bit more sweetness with this next batch.

Very glad to hear that this was a success! If the carb is strong compared to a commercial cider, then it probably dropped another ~3 points in the bottle, so you'd be looking at ~1.005, which IMHO is about as dry as you can go and still be drinkable by the pint. If you crashed your most recent batch at 1.012 and dont let it get quite as carbed, that should put you at 1.010, which is noticeably sweeter.

The flavor was a bit thin or a slight watery taste.....If I am limited to just a small variety if apples. golden red delicious, Rome beauty, Jonathan, and Winesap apples and i think Fuji. Would adding malic acid or tannins ect be a good option or because of the limited apples I have at my disposal?

I doubt you have an acidity problem. Adding tannin is sometimes needed if you are making a dry cider with subpar apples, but for a sweeter cider, there are better ways to improve body IMHO. Keep in mind that for a dryish cider like 1.005, just keeping it longer in the bottle will help.

If you can get the orchard to give you a mix that doesnt have the golden and red delicious, that would help a lot. There isnt much flavor or body left in those once you ferment the sugar out. If they are still pressing, see if you can get an all Winesap mix. Those can make a decent single varietal. I really like the taste of Romes in a mix, but in my experience they do make the juice take longer to clear. That might have been because maybe the ones I got were not quite ripe, but generally if an apple variety is popular for making applesauce, its going to be slow to clear. Next season, the only one of these that will be available early in the season is the Jonathans, and they are good for acidity but need a base apple to balance. Something like Cortland or Grimes golden are good early season base apples around here. If you cant get the gold/red delicious out of the mix, then just crashing them at a little higher gravity will give you more body.

Any other advice that you can offer or send me in the right directing to experiment next season?

Give the guy at the orchard a couple of bottles of your best cider. Maybe one or two of each. Make sure he keeps them refrigerated, or better yet, drink them with him. Ask him if he ever does a custom hard cider pressing, also which apples does he still have in storage and what are the first good cider apples that will be available next season. If you are willing to getting some friends together, ask him how much it would cost to do a custom pressing and what is the minimum quantity.

 

[kgressler]

Very glad to hear that this was a success! If the carb is strong compared to a commercial cider, then it probably dropped another ~3 points in the bottle, so you'd be looking at ~1.005, which IMHO is about as dry as you can go and still be drinkable by the pint. If you crashed your most recent batch at 1.012 and dont let it get quite as carbed, that should put you at 1.010, which is noticeably sweeter.

You know I didn't really think about that. I didnt realize it dropped that much in the bottle. Well then I will definitely try and crash slightly earlier.I will see how this one goes and once it gets a decent carb just go ahead and store them in the fridge and this should also help with body that I seem to be losing as well according to you.

Never thought about asking about a custom pressing. Or asking about omiting certain apples. It cant hurt although I dont know anyone who also ferments cider so bulk purchase is probably not possible. But I can always ask.

I

All great info Kevin. Thanks a ton!

 

[hburgcider]

Yep, I got home today and the airlock was going nuts. Strange I stared at it for a full 3 minutes this morning, no movement.

I am actually trying this based on your recommendation at old hill for the cider seminar. One thing I missed but read in one of your posts yesterday was that I shouldn't have used sulfites. 3 Camden tabs crushed. Oops. 😕

 

[CvilleKevin]

Yep, I got home today and the airlock was going nuts. Strange I stared at it for a full 3 minutes this morning, no movement.

That sound like what one of my BRY97 batches did. I dont have any explanation other than maybe a weak production of yeast. My slow batch has caught up to the one that started bubbling in 16hrs, so seems to have made up for lost time. Hopefully yours will do the same.

One thing I missed but read in one of your posts yesterday was that I shouldn't have used sulfites. 3 Camden tabs crushed. Oops.

Not the end of the world, but it might stink a bit. I tried BRY97 out on two gallons last year, one sulfited, one not. The sulfited batch really stunk and the unsufited one smelled great. Any by stunk - I mean it was just one little gallon jug sitting in the basement, and for about a week I could notice it just walking in the front door. On the plus side, by the time I bottled it 3 weeks later, it smelled fine, and a year later I liked the sulfited version a little better. For the two batches I have in progress now, I'm planning on sulfiting one after the crash and see how that holds up through the summer.

 

[hburgcider]

Thanks a ton. It definitely stinks.

I am trying cold crashing this year for the first time to. I got a fridge dedicated to it. First crash was with s04. Think I need to rack it again but it stopped. But I haven't taken it out of the fridge yet.

Thanks for all the great info. It's been really helpful.

 

[MrsPeepers]

Hi everyone,

Currently I'm making a cider with cider yeast. I was wondering why the OP mainly uses ale yeasts. I searched around but couldn't find any decent info on the difference between ale & cider yeasts. My best guess is that cider ferments somewhere between 5%-10%, finishing out semi-dry but leaving much of the apple taste (possibly after aging). Is that correct?

 

[MarkKF]

IMO wine yeast finishes at 0.996, cider yeast finishes at 1.000 and ale yeast finishes at 1.004

 

[CvilleKevin]

I was wondering why the OP mainly uses ale yeasts

Three reasons: (1) Most Ale yeasts will go dormant and drop to the bottom of the carboy if you cold crash the cider. This makes it relatively easy to remove the yeast so that you have a semi sweet cider. (2) They generally use more nutrient, which make crashing more reliable and often causes them to stop on their own at higher gravities (although an ale yeast can easily take a cider down to 0.996 with high nutrient juice) and (3) They produce a cider that tastes better (that is subjective, but most folks who like a semi-sweet or sweet cider agree)

Those are the short answers. You can use the search function to find longer explanations of these points

 

[rideincircles]

I am making a cider batch with walmart apple juice, some orange blossom honey and WB-06 at the moment. Will see how it turns out since I am using one of the yeasts not recommended. So far it has one lb of orange blossom, but i will probably add another and see how it is then.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Will see how it turns out since I am using one of the yeasts not recommended.

I didnt have much luck with WB-06. OTOH, the best yeast to use is very much dependent on the juice, so hopefully it will like the Walmart juice better. Be careful if you add honey or any other sugar to already fermenting cider, because it will tend to foam. Make sure you keep a solid stopper in one hand so you can seal off the foam quickly if it starts coming up the neck of the carboy.

 

[rideincircles]

Noted. I didn't have any issue when I added the honey, but I took some apple juice that I shook up to get the rest of the honey out and it flared up after I added that. Not too bad though. I may end up kegging it and seeing how it is after my next dose of honey and will decide if I should add some blackberries or some other type of fruit to it.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I didn't have any issue when I added the honey, but I took some apple juice that I shook up to get the rest of the honey out and it flared up after I added that. Not too bad though.

Interesting. I suppose because the honey had not dissolved yet, it wasnt readily available to the yeast, whereas the juice you shook up had an elevated sugar level which had already dissolved. Most of my experience with late sugar additions has been turbinado or corn and they will both flare right up when you pour them in - probably because they dissolve faster. The first time I tried this was many years ago and I lost about a gallon of foam on the floor before I could get a stopper onto the carboy.

 

[bembel]

Been experimenting over the past 2-3 years and this season stumbled upon 2 yeasts that no one seems to talk about on these threads

Disclaimer, I like dry, still ciders as close to Frankfurt style applewine as I can get them, so if you like them sweeter this is not for you)

Both initial 5 gallon batches, in carboys.

These ( my best batches so far in 2 years ) has been local unpasteurized juice, blended for hard cider by the orchard with LHBS involvement, and fermented low and slow using SN9 and VR21 (incredible apple aroma and residual taste after 1 month in primary fermented at 58-60, then another 6 weeks in secondary, topped of with appx 64 oz Whole Foods fresh pasteurized cider to close headspace)

I used nutrient and pectic enzyme in both, no added sugars.

the FG was 1.002 on both but they still had wonderful apple aroma and flavors

I cold crash them for 24-36 hours at 32 degrees, then bottle to wine bottles. ( I make the decision to bottle vs keg based on the aroma and flavor after the secondary, if I need to adjust it much, such as add tannin or back-sweeten with a bit of double sweet fresh juice, ((freeze halfway and pour out remaining concentrate, this also clears the juice)) , I keg for immediate consumption, otherwise, I bottle )

Interestingly the SN9 was the best at bottling, blew my mind, with the VR21 a close second, but after an additional 6 weeks in the bottle, the VR21 is the best batch I have ever made! ( SN9 still great, but had lost some of the residual apple flavor, where as it increased with the VR21 )

Will update as the aging occurs if I can show self restraint!

Forgot to add, I usually dont add K-meta or sorbates, before or after, only if I get the juice and need to let is sit for a few days since I know ill be busy, and then, only b4 the primary

 

[mattmmille]

I had some fruit I needed to use or lose, so I started a batch that I thought was going to be more like mead, but now, it's leaning more towards a cider. I had a mango, two large star fruits, two pears and three gala apples. Ran those through the juicer and had about a half gallon of juice. I added water up to 1-1/3 gallons (the juice was fairly thick.) I threw in pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient and a crushed campden tablet. The SG was about 1.022. Added 12 oz of honey and got around 1.053. Then added two cups of white sugar (because I had no more honey), and 1.073 was the OG for which I settled. 24 hours later, I added Vintner's Harvest CY17. Slow to start and never appeared aggressive, but fermented out to .998 in 7 days. Racked, but there's lots of trub...I'm at just barely under a gallon now...by the time I get to bottling, I may only have 1/2 gallon. Not sure if I'll backsweeten and prime for carbonation and pastuerize or if I'll just let it stay fairly dry and bottle it, as is, without pasteurizing. Haven't decided yet. Anyway, since it isn't straight juice, it's not just honey for the sweetening, and the ABV potential is around 9.5%, I don't know how to classify this little experiment...wine or cider? Anyway, we'll see where it goes! Second pic is the hydro sample after crashing in the fridge overnight. It isn't very sweet and it's young, of course, but kind of interesting.

 

[datcv]

Been experimenting over the past 2-3 years and this season stumbled upon 2 yeasts that no one seems to talk about on these threads

Disclaimer, I like dry, still ciders as close to Frankfurt style applewine as I can get them, so if you like them sweeter this is not for you)

Thanks for posting that-- I'll have to add those two yeasts to my list to try. There isn't a whole lot of information out there on Frankfurt style Ebbelwoi and I've never found it available for purchase in the US. I had a pitcher of this served with soda water when I was there a few years ago. Did you add any acid to make it more sour?

 

[bembel]

Thanks for posting that-- I'll have to add those two yeasts to my list to try. There isn't a whole lot of information out there on Frankfurt style Ebbelwoi and I've never found it available for purchase in the US. I had a pitcher of this served with soda water when I was there a few years ago. Did you add any acid to make it more sour?

Possmann is the largest commercial producer of applewine in Frankfurt, I have been to their factory, its cool, they somehow salvaged reused the inner hull of a WW2 U-boat as a huge fermentation tank right after the war since it was the largest tank they could find and worth a fortune then in materials . They make the standard, clear, bone dry apple wine that you purchase in stores. It is not really 'sour'. Here is a link for all the Possmann distributers in the US, if you live in a state listed, call them and ask where to buy. When I moved back to Boston from Frankfurt 15 years ago, this was not an option.

http://www.possmann.com/dist.html

I actually prefer the Ebbelwoi that the individual Apfelweinwirtshafts and Apfelwein restaurants make themselves to sell on-premise, (my all time favorite being Adolf Wagner, I practically lived there for a few years) . This is not clear like the store bought stuff, and is definitely a bit more sour. These individual restaurants are like micro-breweries all over the city, so there is a ton of variation. They make there own and serve it out of bembels ( applewine pitchers) based on how thirsty you are, each bembel has a corresponding number, indicating how many .33 liter servings it contains. You can get them as small as a 5'er or up to a 32'er at some places.

Applewine and dry still cider are pretty much exactly the same thing, Frankfurt applewine producers uses a variation of a crab apple to get some astringency and tartness, but they never add sugar or flavorings to their juice pre-fermentation. Any adulteration is done 'in the glass'

Back to your question, I find that these yeasts really maintain the apple flavor and aroma that mimics the applewine that the restaurants make, they don't filter it the way Possmann does, and its really like a large scale homebrew operation. If the starting apple cider I use is flat, I might add 1/8th -16th teaspoon of tannin before kegging after tasting. I also find that the C02 from the Keg system adds a bit of sourness as well, though this my be in my head. It definitely tastes better carbed.

The one batch I did that REALLY reminded me of the restaurant Apfelwein had JUST started to get a few tiny patches of the white film in the secondary that indicates a little acetic fermentation had started. As soon as I saw this, I crashed it and kegged it and drank it.

The acetic 'accident' notwithstanding, the normal batches using the two yeasts mentioned and low and slow fermentations are as close as I have come to replicating my favorite beverage.

Cheers

PS
Forgot to add the bit about the acid
Yes, I test the acid up front using a wine titration kit, and if its less than 65-70 titratable I add malic to get it up to 75-80