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Reminder for Noobs (and everyone for that matter)

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Grizzlybrew

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Just a reminder here - one that I forget myself sometimes.

Hopefully, you've seen the phrase "a good noob will search". If you haven't, then you've probably seen something like this:

noob: where can I find a comprehensive list of brewing malts?
cool guy in the forum (several times, me): Here's a great place to find the info you're looking for: http://tinyurl.com/6frvg2v

Anyway, a good noob will search is a great motto to live by. For experienced brewers, if you are encountering an issue for the first time, then you are a noob in that issue.

I had (what I thought) was an unusual foaming issue with one of my kegs. I have been kegging over a year and never had an issue like this particular one before. Right before posting, I decided to do a quick search. I just opened the first 8 links that popped up and low and behold!... the second one described my situation perfectly and I was able to solve my problem.

This is just a reminder that we can all be noobs at times and searching before posting can do us all a favor. This forum is a collection of knowledge and experience and that's what makes it so great. If we can specialize that expertise into individual threads (by adding your comments/experiences to already existing threads, assuming your situation is not extremely unique), it makes for a more concise and complete learning experience.

Seeing too many redundant threads reminds me of a quote from one of my friends: "While beating a dead horse is fun, we've got some German to learn here" replace a few key words and I think you know what I mean. Anyway, I think this is one of the best forums out there and don't mean to offend anyone or discourage conversation by any means.

:mug:
 
297%20-%20animated_gif%20applause.gif


As one of those guys who answers a few questions here and there ;), I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a question asked, or honestly even an idea that hasn't been covered, answered or discussed already at ton of times (except maybe something news realted about brewing that pops up, but you can bet your bippie that there will be at least a half dozen threads about it with 3 hours of it hitting the media.)

Sorry I'm gonna say it again to back you up, your beer/brewing situation is not "terminally unique, though YOU might think so." In a forum like ours with 40,000 registered members, several hundred folks have experienced the same issue, asked about it, and had it answered at 1 time or another.

Sorry, but it's like the idea that there are only 12 plot devices in literature, and every novel, movie, video game or song is a riff on those- there's ONLY a limited amount of brewing problems/situations as well.

Considering that every new brewer question is answered about 10 times a day every day, usually by me because people won't look at stickys or use the search...Why shouldn't we suggest they do a bit of work on occasion?

Seriously, I bet you there is no beginner question that hasn't already been answered really effectively on here already. Not just by me, but by a lot of people......

So why should we re-invent the wheel because you are too lazy to look around a bit. I mean we're not mean about it, like some other places, we just want you to know that it's already been covererd repeatedly.

The thing to me about searching is two fold, and I really hate coming off as a search nazi, BUT

1) There is a huuuge amount of state of the art brewing info on here...info that is even more current than palmer (only becasue it takes 2-3 years to get a book out.) Some of us have spent hours writing stuff up, like blogs or long answers to basic questions, including searching for links like audio and video casts to answer those basic questions...And we want you to know it exists, and we want you to utilize it to be the best damn brewer's you can be.

SO when I say it's been covered before, I'm not saying "hey a$$hat, use the search."

I'm saying "Hey, there's some kick ass info on that very topic, put together from some amazing brewers, and it's free, right here, you don't need to buy a book....all you need to do is click "search" and maybe play with the words a couple times...


2) A lot of the "kick ass brewers" who are here, and were here before I got here have stopped answering the same noob questions over and over. Most of those people get tired of it after a couple months, and just ignore these threads...From what people tell me, for doing it constantly for a year, I'm an anomoly....maybe because of my 'calling" (yes I am a minister for the 10,000th time ) I have an almost pathological need to help people...whether it's in a church or in a brewery.

Which means that the people who might be best able to answer your basic question are NOT going to because they did it 6 months ago, and feel that that's enough. Or they are no longer here...but their info is still here and still valuable...

So that really means that if you just start a thread, especially if you are asking about "Stainless vs Aluminum" or Plastic waterbottles or "is my beer ruined," or "what;s your opinion on...?" You may not GET THE BEST INFORMATION YOU COULD BE GETTING You could be getting the same outdated "party line" out of Palmer or Papazian, (which are actually several years of in the case of Charlie over a decade old) when there was some new discovery a few weeks back that we all talked to death and learned from...and we want you to know about it too...

I also have found, as someone that answers a lot of questions everyday, that if a person reads a thread on their "basic question" first and maybe bumps that thread up, that their question has a lot more depth than it might have been...because maybe they zeroed in on an issue from one or more of the posts in a thread...and then rather than,

"What's that fuzzy stuff on top of my beer?" To "Oh I thought my beer was infected, now I know it's a krauzen, it's normal, and it has proteins and other things in it, so what kinda proteins are there, do they come from the yeasts, the wort or both, and should I skim it or not?"

Which is more fun for me to answer because it may lead me to search, or to google or to recall some fuzzy bit of info I heard on a podcast and go search for it for you...and for me...

So get over it. If people keep asking the same question, we ARE going to suggest they search for the answers that are already here. And about 99% of the time we are going to be nice about.

Heck most of the time I do the searching for the person and post the links. But I can't do it 100% of the time, since I often am now answering from my smart phone, and it's not easy to post links from there. And if I can't I usually provide the search words that I use in the post, like give them the paramters that I use.

But again, whether you like it or not, the times we do suggest someone search it is on the questions that get asked over and over and over and over, where the answer is going to be exactly the same, which was more than likely given over and over and over. And hasn't changed in the 10,000 times we've answered it before. So why do we need to re-invent the wheel or beat a dead horse to the ground on the same answers that are already there?

I use the search function at least a dozen time every day, most of the time to search for an answer that I already gave to find one to cut and paste- I don't have macros like some folks suggest, I just do what other folks should be doing, and search for the answer.

But I'm always searching for new info for my OWN learning. WHich is an ongoing process.

I love that quote of your about learning german... I thins folks can reach a greater depth of learning on any topic, if the first look for the basics already here, then they can ask for clarification or more info, which takes us ALL to a higher level of learning.:mug:
 
Look what got posted just as you were writing this thread.

I am brand new to brewing....I gotta say I have all the same worries, questions, concerns, etc, as I am sure most newbies do......There has not been one thing I haven't found answers to on this forum. I have used the search feature a ton......and I'm reading through old & new posts. I can only imagine starting brewing before this info was available. Just a thanks to all that help us young'uns.

Jack

I think it sums it up pretty cool.
 
You know you don't have to respond to a question if you don't want to; right?

I use the search feature quite a bit, but sometimes after reading through dozens of threads don't find exactly what I'm looking for.
 
You know you don't have to respond to a question if you don't want to; right?

Are you talking to me???


Duh......Did I ever say I had a problem?????????? I'm just saying there is plenty of info for just about everything...and a lot of it is ALREADY PROVIDED BY ME.......

Most of us put a LOT of time and info into our answers....like doing some searches for source material already, I''ve been known to spend 2-3 hours writing up an answer for one of those oft asked and answered question....If it's one of my answers you have to realize that I probably already answered it 15-20 times before I came up with one of those long answers...once the answer has come through, and there's been a lot of feedback that it was helpful (like someone taking a grav reading and realizing what a beer was REALLY doing instead of what their airlock told them- then it gets into the rotation.) And that means it usually has about a 95-98% answer rate.
 
You know you don't have to respond to a question if you don't want to; right?

I use the search feature quite a bit, but sometimes after reading through dozens of threads don't find exactly what I'm looking for.


It makes me laugh that you just told Revvy that he didn't have to answer n00b questions. Dude has 25,000 posts, most of them answering n00bs. I'm sure he's figured out the game by now.
 
Are you talking to me???


Duh......Did I ever say I had a problem?????????? I'm just saying there is plenty of info for just about everything...and a lot of it is ALREADY PROVIDED BY ME.......

Most of us put a LOT of time and info into our answers....like doing some searches for source material already, I''ve been known to spend 2-3 hours writing up an answer for one of those oft asked and answered question....If it's one of my answers you have to realize that I probably already answered it 15-20 times before I came up with one of those long answers...once the answer has come through, and there's been a lot of feedback that it was helpful (like someone taking a grav reading and realizing what a beer was REALLY doing instead of what their airlock told them- then it gets into the rotation.) And that means it usually has about a 95-98% answer rate.


No, not talking to you.....just addressing the thread. Sorry that you had to answer the airlock, or any other question so many times. I was just mentioning from my own experience there are so many posts that it could take all day to get through them when you search.
It's a beginners beer brewing forum; which means you will get those types of questions.
 
Being new myself, I think the search feature is better than having any book. I have asked a few questions on the forums when I couldn't find the exact answer but really didn't get much help. I figure if you can't find the answer on your own then chances are people won't give you the answer anyways because they they assume you can find it using the search feature:D
 
It makes me laugh that you just told Revvy that he didn't have to answer n00b questions. Dude has 25,000 posts, most of them answering n00bs. I'm sure he's figured out the game by now.

No I didn't. I did not quote or address him in any form fasion or way.

I know that he aswers questions often and has to repeat himself. He has answered mine several times, and it's appreciated. I am saying as a whole and to EVERYONE, if you are offended by a repaeated question, just don't reply.

Now back to Revy.... Thanks for all the info!!:mug:
 
I normally don't like to post O/T comments, but I can't help myself:

This thread gave me a chuckle - thanks to all and especially Revvy.

And now one of my favorites: On my first batch, the little O ring on the air lock fell into my beer. I reached in after scrubbing my hand and arm as best as I could. Was my beer ruined? (Actually, no, and it was many years ago). :D
 
think I will start using the search function more often...consider me spanked...why is there no emoticon for that :)
 
I started a quick little thread last night because I forgot what to "set and forget" my keg at. I'm sure that has been answered a zillion times here, but I was too drunk and lazy to search :p
 
not a n00b, but almost posted to ask about my lager yeast that smelled pretty bad when i opened the package... searched "smelly lager yeast", or something to that effect, and learned all about rhino farts!
 
Being a newb myself I must say I get aggravated when someone asks a good question. Then a more experienced brewer chimes in and comments about how ridiculous it is to post a question without searching. They talk about how it clogs the boards and is a waste of time for the more experienced guys. What about when the more experienced guys post threads about not liking when newbs ask legit questions? I personally like asking a question and getting an answer from someone. It feels good that other people are willing to spend their time helping beginners learn. I frequent a few other forums that have to do with my other hobbies(saltwater fish aquariums and rc helicopters) and ppl seem to be much more friendly in those communities. This isn't meant to bash the original poster, its really nice to be reminded to use the search feature sometimes! So thank you for going about this in such a nice way!
 
Does anyone know of a way to reorder the search results by most to least recent?

The only issue I have at times with searching is finding mostly old, dormant threads. Obviously it doesn't matter how old the thread is if it completely deals with whatever question I might have had (which is usually the case), but if I have a follow up question, then it's helpful if it's a more recent thread. Not a big deal, just wondering if there's a simple trick I haven't figured out to reorder the posts.

As an aside, the old thread search syndrome leads to some pretty silly exchanges. For instance, I've seen a lot of threads from several years ago when there was a hop shortage, and someone who doesn't check posting dates will come out with "Where the he11 do you buy your hops if it costs you $60 to brew that IPA??? I buy my hops at hopsdirect.com and spend less than a dollar an ounce shipped. You're getting hosed...yadda, yadda"

So, when you use the search feature, check the posting dates before diving in...:D
 
In advanced search under search options there is "find posts from" "and "And newer" pull downs that allow you to dom that, also one that is sort by "ascending and descending order."
 
Is there a way to search for certain people in order to send them a PM? I have had some trouble doing this
 
:mug:so i have a question that might not have ever been asked.

"Where does Revvy go when he has a question?" ;)
 
So far, I've found all I've wanted to know from searching.

I have yet to post a "beer" question.

It seems that all bases have been covered. Why would anyone need to post a question if it has been answered already? Because the art/science of beer-making is constantly evolving (isn't it?) and there are many ways to do it. It sparks conversation and keeps ideas fresh while old and outdated data sinks to the bottom like trub.

Of course, I'll continue to use the search feature like a good noob should. I just want to thank everyone for making this place what it is; friendly and informative. In time, I may be able to answer a question or two by noob who didn't use the search feature. I mean, why should you vets get to have all the fun? :D
 
You know you don't have to respond to a question if you don't want to; right?

I use the search feature quite a bit, but sometimes after reading through dozens of threads don't find exactly what I'm looking for.

I think that telling people to "search noob" is wrong. I mean, you certainly don't have to answer any question because someone else will be along any minute.

But this is a forum, not a "read only" file of facts. If no one could ask a redundant question, there would be no posts.

One of the things I find most aggravating in the beginners brewing forum is when someone says, "Well, if you would have used the search, you would have found these 27 posts that exactly answer your question" as a reply.

He wasn't posting in "rocket science questions"- he was in the beginner's forum! That sound be the absolute safe zone, and I get really pissed when I see responses that aren't helpful to someone.

No answer at all is better than an unhelpful response, or a response that makes someone feel silly for actually having the nerve to think they have a unique situation. EVERY situation is unique as every human being is unique. I don't care if there have been 2 billion "is my beer ruined?" threads, each one is still unique.
 
In advanced search under search options there is "find posts from" "and "And newer" pull downs that allow you to dom that, also one that is sort by "ascending and descending order."

I can never get anything to show up when I click on Advanced search. It takes me to another screen with nothing but ads and no place to put in any search parameters. I usually use Chrome but tried Explorer to see if that was the problem, but I get same results with both. i.e. no advanced search
 
I agree with Yooper. the short of it is - pretty much every beer related question has been answered here at some point or another. if all we did was search, there would be no reason to post about anything. just like looking up old info at the library - boring
 
I think that telling people to "search noob" is wrong. I mean, you certainly don't have to answer any question because someone else will be along any minute.

But this is a forum, not a "read only" file of facts. If no one could ask a redundant question, there would be no posts.

One of the things I find most aggravating in the beginners brewing forum is when someone says, "Well, if you would have used the search, you would have found these 27 posts that exactly answer your question" as a reply.

He wasn't posting in "rocket science questions"- he was in the beginner's forum! That sound be the absolute safe zone, and I get really pissed when I see responses that aren't helpful to someone.

No answer at all is better than an unhelpful response, or a response that makes someone feel silly for actually having the nerve to think they have a unique situation. EVERY situation is unique as every human being is unique. I don't care if there have been 2 billion "is my beer ruined?" threads, each one is still unique.

^^^^^^ This. :mug:

That's why this site is called homebrewTALK.com not homebrewsearch.com. And no, I didn't come up with that; someone else posted it a long time ago....maybe I should search and find out? ;)
 
I'm on many forums, and have been moderator on some, and on each one there's a thread like this that comes up every few months.

I'll just add a few personal opinions:

1. Yes it gets annoying sometimes seeing the same old questions. But if it really irks you stay out of the beginner sections. If the person posts elsewhere mods usually move it to the beginner section anyway so you shouldn't see too many redundant questions.

2. As SuperJunior said - it's a forum, not a library. Of course nearly everything has been answered already, the forum is huge. If the same questions didn't come up again then would the forum really have any activity?

3. Some people enjoy sharing what they've learned and don't mind answering questions that several other users may have answered years before. Heck, the new person answering might have some other experience or new knowledge to share that other's haven't yet covered or encountered.

4. No matter what you do you will NEVER EVER stop the new repeat posts!! It's a fact of life. The only thing anyone could do would be to lock threads with links or "Use the search". And if that happened I can assure you activity on the forum would sharply drop. I've seen it happen first hand.

So, not saying I completely disagree with the "Use the search first". I try to as much as I can. But fact is most people by nature want instant gratification, or even might not have time to search and read dozens of threads for their answer. So it will never ever end. :)


Rev.
 
Is there a way to search for certain people in order to send them a PM? I have had some trouble doing this

I can never get anything to show up when I click on Advanced search. It takes me to another screen with nothing but ads and no place to put in any search parameters. I usually use Chrome but tried Explorer to see if that was the problem, but I get same results with both. i.e. no advanced search

The easiest way to find someone is to go to your own profile and click on the tool bar in the middle where it says something like "browse members". You can put a few letters that you know in there, and it should pull up people to choose from.

I think one of the issues with the search is that it's for premium supporters. At least, it used to be, and I'm not sure if it's changed or not. So my search is much easier and gives more pertinent results. You can search the forum with google, too, and that gives better results.
 
Revvy,

I was pretty stoked to see you as the first respondant!

I was going to quote several other people, but just decided to do a general response. I posted a thread a week or two ago about what section you hit up first when you log on to HBT. My response was the 'Unanswered Question' link. I enjoy answering questions, even if they are simple. I feel good helping others out although it can be frustrating. I may take a small jab at these people sometimes, but it's only after a helpful answer or hint.

As far as a read-only forum... If there would be no reason to post other than asking redundant questions, I would say we're a pretty sad bunch. There is a lot of innovative and creative things going on here that people love to share and read about.

The point of this forum is not only entertainment, but, hopefully, more so to educate. If you sat in a classroom where all the students took turns asking the same question and getting the same response from the teacher because they weren't listening/learning from others, I would hope you would get frustrated. If you wouldn't, please don't contribute, as I'm not sure you have mastered basic skills in communication. And why do we even have sticky's if everyone should just keep asking the same questions over and over again?!?

Also, your varying levels of knowledge and experience or lack thereof does not make your question unique - the answer is still the same!

Anyway, the point of my original post was to say that I reminded myself that searching can be really helpful sometimes. I know I have posted redundant questions before and probably will again, but a quick check (even of just the first link or two in a search) can save you some time.
 
+1 Rev and Yooper. As a noob, I can tell you that outside of this forum, I have no other contact with homebrewers. I enjoy the conversations. Yeah, I know the same questions again and again get old, but sometimes I want to know others have the same questions and concerns I do. It's a community after all.
 
If you sat in a classroom where all the students took turns asking the same question and getting the same response from the teacher because they weren't listening/learning from others, I would hope you would get frustrated

Right, and no one is disagreeing that using the search is something everyone should try first before answering but the thing is you often get new registrants because they're doing their first brew, think they might've made a mistake, and just sign up and ask away. How can anyone control that? Most of those people stick around anyway and become long term helpful members.

In contrast to your point above let me ask this... what is the point of a classroom if all the answers are already in all the various textbooks given? The point is to ask questions, especially if you don't understand exactly what's written in a given text or *why* something is a certain way.

When someone wants to know how long a wheat should sit in a primary they can search and find an answer (for example 2 weeks) but not exactly *why* it should be two weeks instead of 4 weeks. Posting a thread allows a user to be interactive and ask additional questions along the way. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing to the other end of the spectrum.


Rev.
 
I think one of the issues with the search is that it's for premium supporters. At least, it used to be, and I'm not sure if it's changed or not. So my search is much easier and gives more pertinent results. You can search the forum with google, too, and that gives better results.

Maybe that's it. I have a general search feature on the top menu bar, and when I have a thread open I have another simple search for "search this thread". And there is an advanced search link, but it does not do anything (like search by date, search in title, or boolean searches, like an advanced search usually does.)
 
This topic has been debated ad infinitum. If you would have used the search, you would have known this.:p:cross:

Kidding, of course.

We, as a group, see the same questions over and over. Sometimes I'll respond, others I'll ignore. It's not uncommon for new brewers to think they've got an unique problem or something has happened to cause them concern over their new baby.

In part, what keeps this board moving forward is turning noobs into intermediate and advanced brewers. In turn, they can help other noob's "my air lock is silent", "I dropped my grommet into my beer", or "I sanitized with urine, is my beer ok":fro: posts.

:mug:
 
you often get new registrants because they're doing their first brew, think they might've made a mistake, and just sign up and ask away. How can anyone control that?

This is exactly why I go to unanswered questions first. If someone is mid-boil and has a question about finishing hops, they probably don't have time to go through search results and I WANT to help them. These aren't the only questions I answer.

In contrast to your point above let me ask this... what is the point of a classroom if all the answers are already in all the various textbooks given? The point is to ask questions, especially if you don't understand exactly what's written in a given text or *why* something is a certain way.

Good point. Why do we have schools at all? Because most (ok, maybe just a lot) of people are LAZY. They wouldn't learn anything at all if they weren't forced to. Come to think of it, the world may be a better place then. Maybe evolution could actually function as it should and we wouldn't just hoist the weak onto our backs and carry them.

Sorry - that was probably a little over the top. But maybe not far... refer to exhibit A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

"The film tells the story of two ordinary people who are taken into a top-secret military hibernation experiment that goes awry, and awaken 500 years in the future. They discover that the world has degenerated into a dystopia where advertising, commercialism, and cultural anti-intellectualism run rampant and dysgenic pressure has resulted in a uniformly stupid human society devoid of individual responsibility or consequences."

When someone wants to know how long a wheat should sit in a primary they can search and find an answer (for example 2 weeks) but not exactly *why* it should be two weeks instead of 4 weeks.

Why don't they just read Brewing with Wheat by Stan Hieronymous ;)
 
while I appreciate and have read most of the stickies. It can be very time consuming to read thru a thread that has 20-30 or sometimes a hundred pages of posts. I personally have 2 little ones running around and finding the time to read endless posts can be quite daunting. In these situations, I will ask a question on the thread. Sometimes we need quick answers. If you are willing to help it is much appreciated. If not, thats fine too
 
Sorry - that was probably a little over the top. But maybe not far...

Not over the top at all. You make an excellent point about being forced to learn and I agree wholeheartedly with your comment! BTW, I've seen the movie, it's hysterical.

And thanks a million for mentioning that book! I didn't know about it but now plan to get it as Wheats, primarily Hefeweizen's, are my top beer. I'm an autodidact so I love picking up books :D


Rev.
 
Not over the top at all. You make an excellent point about being forced to learn and I agree wholeheartedly with your comment! BTW, I've seen the movie, it's hysterical.

And thanks a million for mentioning that book! I didn't know about it but now plan to get it as Wheats, primarily Hefeweizen's, are my top beer. I'm an autodidact so I love picking up books :D


Rev.

Rev,

I was hoping nothing I said was being taken in the wrong light and I'm glad to see your response and realize it wasn't.

Ultimately, I'm still going to answer questions. I found this forum because every time I typed a homebrewing question into google, some post on HBT was always near the top of search results. It didn't take long to realize that HBT was a good home for me. And as someone else said earlier, I took that information from my first searches and along with reading books, listening to podcasts and my personal experiences to give back to the brewing community, especially those beginners.

I was volunteering at a craft beer store for a couple of months, helping with the homebrewing section as well as other things. The regular staff always made fun of me because I could easily spend an hour talking to someone who either wanted to get into brewing or had just started and had questions. It was a good thing I was working for free or I probably would have been let go.:D
 
I think its a matter of time too,sometimes you end up having to read too much to find your specific answer ( not that you cant benefit from it- i know i have) butstill cant find it, so you post a new thread in the first place. I agree to use the search or stickys too but unless posting threads is a threat to the memory space on this website and nice people are answering and making it easier for the noob then i dont see anything wrong with starting a thread.I end up learning from different answers or opinions suggestions methods.
Like my comment here. Someone just posted part of what i said before me and i didnt read it because i didnt feel like reading all the comments. Ha. I Just read the post 3 up from here.

Basically its just more convenient- to get a question answered fast from someone that wants to help some one not worry.
 
Right, and no one is disagreeing that using the search is something everyone should try first before answering but the thing is you often get new registrants because they're doing their first brew, think they might've made a mistake, and just sign up and ask away. How can anyone control that? Most of those people stick around anyway and become long term helpful members.

In part, what keeps this board moving forward is turning noobs into intermediate and advanced brewers. In turn, they can help other noob's "my air lock is silent", "I dropped my grommet into my beer", fro:

:mug:

Um, I think Hugh Jass is talking about me! My first post here on HBT WAS "I dropped my grommet into my beer- so I duct taped the airlock in place and walked away- is my beer ruined?" I believe. I was a winemaker, and a Beer Machine owner, and I didn't ever use an airlock on primary before, so I figured duct tape would hold it. It did. But my second post was: "My airlock never bubbled- did my beer ferment?". Some nice person told me that the co2 leaked out around the duct-taped airlock but the beer was fine! And because of the way I was treated, this noob became a premium supporter on the second post. 5 years later, I'm moderating the biggest homebrew forum on the internet.

So, if little old me can become a decent brewer because of this forum and I started with "dumb" questions, you can certainly understand why I'm very sensitive about the way we treat new brewers.

Even though I'd like to think I'm somewhat accomplished as a brewer, there are many facets of brewing that are new to me. Just as you master one small technique, there are more to hit you with. I went from partial mashing to AG brewing, to decoctions, to kegging, to an all electric 1/2 barrel HERMS, to water chemistry, etc. Each subject that I've progressed into has been new to me. If anybody would have replied to my queries with "this gets asked everyday- do you think you're unique?" I wouldn't have stayed around long.
 
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