Rauchbier PH Problems.

[kurds_2408]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

 

[passedpawn]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

Way outta my league there. I don't do water chemistry (though I have the meter and acids and salts etc).

Regarding that smoked beer, it's so good. I've brewed it numerous times.

 

[kurds_2408]

Way outta my league there. I don't do water chemistry (though I have the meter and acids and salts etc).

Regarding that smoked beer, it's so good. I've brewed it numerous times.

Lol. That's good to hear. I've never done a smoked beer so very excited.

 

[marc1]

I'd use calcium chloride and gypsum to get the Cl and sulfate levels approximately correct, then use baking soda to raise the pH. If sodium was going way too high, I'd then use the slaked lime. Don't worry about the calcium levels going too high.
You could also try adding some of the calcium chloride and gypsum to the sparge instead of the mash. Don't add baking soda or slaked lime to the sparge water.
Also, the bicarbonate isn't a target, it is to be increased only to increase pH.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't see an immediate reason why the pH should be that low. Why don't you share your brewfather recipe so we can look at all your settings.

 

[kurds_2408]

I do no sparge. This is without water adjustment putting my ph at 4.96.​

​

Rauchbier​

5.6% / 14.7 °P
All Grain

Home eBIAB​

73.7% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5.75 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 8.24 gal
Total Water: 8.24 gal
Boil Volume: 7.44 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.017
IBU (Tinseth): 26
BU/GU: 0.43
Color: 12 SRM

Mash​

Strike Temp — 160.5 °F
Temperature — 154 °F — 60 min

Malts (12 lb 8 oz)​

3 lb 10 oz (29%) — Valley Malt Beechwood Smoked — Grain — 3 °L
3 lb 6 oz (27%) — Rahr Pale Malt, 2-Row — Grain — 1.9 °L
2 lb 13 oz (22.5%) — Valley Malt Cherrywood Smoked — Grain — 3 °L
2 lb (16%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 6.2 °L
4.5 oz (2.3%) — Weyermann Caramunich I — Grain — 38.2 °L
4.5 oz (2.3%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L
2 oz (1%) — Behmalt Black (Patent) Malt — Grain — 369.7 °L

Hops (2.75 oz)​

2 oz (23 IBU) — Willamette 5% — Boil — 60 min
0.75 oz (3 IBU) — Willamette 5% — Boil — 10 min

Miscs​

1 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 10 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — White Labs WLP820 Octoberfest/Marzen Lager 73%
Step 1: 1.9 L starter
6.6 oz DME / 8.04 oz LME
Step 2: 2.3 L starter
7.97 oz DME / 9.74 oz LME
656 billion yeast cells
2.03 million cells / ml / °P

Fermentation​

Primary — 55 °F — 10 days
D. Rest — 65 °F (2 day ramp) — 14 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
Lager for 6 to 8 weeks after primary.

 

[marc1]

I threw this into Mash Made Easy real quick using your source water only (no other mineral additions), got a mash pH of 5.63:

 

[Brockness Monster]

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

 

[jackbflyin]

One thing to help bring up pH a bit is to hold the black patent til last 15 minutes of the mash, as most of the conversion will have occurred by then.

 

[pfabsits]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

I would be curious if you are using a pH meter to measure the pH. If you are using a pH meter then, what brand/model, and what buffers were used for calibration. pH meters are only as accurate as the condition of the probe and quality of the buffer (not old/contaminated). Unless you have an understanding of offset/slope, it is difficult to get an accurate reading. It is not unheard to have a 0.5 pH unit discrepancy.

In fact there was one customer (municipality) that was 1 pH unit off from a field versus lab measurement. In the field they were calibrating to pH 7 and 10. The pH 10 buffer was actually 9.5 resulting in a low slope (85%). They stored the probe with groundwater. That had a biofilm on the glass that lead to a high offset (60 mV). A little cleaning and using fresh buffers allowed for the the field and lab to match.

Once I know the meter brand/model then I can check to see if it can be reset to a default calibration. From there I need to know the pH value in 4 and 7 buffers. That will allow the offset/slope to be calculated. With that information then it is possible to know the quality of the measurement.

The sodium and calcium do not change pH. It is the counter ions, carbonate, bicarbonate, and hydroxide that will raise the pH. Epsom Salt or Magnesium Sulfate uses the Sulfate (SO4-2) ion that can react with the H+.

The carbonates, bicarbonate, and sulfate will add some buffering capacity while the hydroxide (OH-) neutralizes the H+

 

[mac_1103]

I would be curious if you are using a pH meter to measure the pH...

Pretty sure OP's question is about why the pH predicted by his software is so low (and perhaps whether he should trust that prediction).

 

[pfabsits]

Pretty sure OP's question is about why the pH predicted by his software is so low (and perhaps whether he should trust that prediction).

Thanks, I thought he was using the application for predicting pH and then asking what would be the best way to raise the pH above 5. My concern here is that people take the number on a meter as true without knowing what can impact the accuracy of the reading. I know a lot of brewers use the Milwaukee MW102. For that meter, it is possible to clear the calibration to the default mode then take a reading in the buffers to see the deviation from the theoretical values. For example, in pH 7 a reading from pH 6.5 (+30 mV) to pH 7.5 (-30 mV) would be okay. If the reading is outside that range then the probe should be cleaned.

Even though we manufacture cleaning solutions specifically for pH electrodes, the cleaning solutions used for contact lenses should work well. They tend to be enzymatic based which does a good job on breaking down proteins.

 

[mac_1103]

Even though we manufacture cleaning solutions specifically for pH electrodes, the cleaning solutions used for contact lenses should work well. They tend to be enzymatic based which does a good job on breaking down proteins.

I'm going to have to give that a try.

 

[DuncB]

Very interesting info about cleaning the electrode.

Wondering if in your water profile setup in profiles in brewfather what you have set the pH to?

 

[Witherby]

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

@mabrungard in this thread says "I haven’t found that the smoke phenols change the mash pH. Base your pH estimate upon the grain color."

 

[kurds_2408]

I threw this into Mash Made Easy real quick using your source water only (no other mineral additions), got a mash pH of 5.63:

View attachment 885268

Oh wow! I haven't heard of Mash Made Easy. That's very cool and helps a lot. Thank you for doing that.

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

@mabrungard in this thread says "I haven’t found that the smoke phenols change the mash pH. Base your pH estimate upon the grain color."

Good call. I didn't realize it was doing that or even that base vs. roasted make a difference. When I change that I get 5.5 to 5.65 depending on if I change the Patent as well. Should I leave the Patent as roasted or base? Thanks you so much.

 

[DuncB]

Patent is definitely roasted