Raging Bitch Clone

[brewtime]

Here is a link to the ingredients in FD KIT
http://flyingdogbrewery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/StoveTopper_RagingBitch2.pdf



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[IslandLizard]

Here is a link to the ingredients in FD KIT
http://flyingdogbrewery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/StoveTopper_RagingBitch2.pdf

Thank you for the kit recipe, very appreciated!
Still wonder how they get 60 IBU from this.

 

[Shenanigans]

I never tried the original but last month I brewed the recipe form CYBI with a wit yeast, no dry hopping and bottle conditioning.

It was my favourite beer to date, Belgian IPA is exactly to my taste. I drunk the 5 gallons in a few weeks

Anyway I want to try it again with dry hopping and reusing the yeast I saved.
This time I'm going to do 10 gallons.

I know this is a clone thread but I don't want to have 10 gallons of the exact same beer. I would like to split it in half and hop the second 5 gallons with something else.

Anyone have any suggestions which other two hops I could use for finishing and dry hopping? I'll use nugget for bittering.


I have Galaxy, Citra, Saaz, EKG, Summit, Falconer's Flight, Willamette, Chinook, Cascade, Belma, Strisselspalt, Fuggels and of course Amarillo and Columbus.

Thanks!

 

[thekraken]

Based on brewtime's recipe, the kit's instructions from Flying Dog, and an email conversation with a brewer at Flying Dog, I brewed the following recipe this last weekend. I'll report back on how it turns out.

I just realized that I scaled the recipe down to 5 gallons from 5.5 gallons (to fit my fermenter) and didn't scale back the IBU's to match. Oh well, I'm still pretty excited to see how this one turns out. Raging B used to be my favorite go to 6 pack before stores started calling it seasonal and jacked the price up on it.

Style: Belgian IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.71 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 4.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated Color: 10.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 95.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
14 lbs                Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        93.3 %        
1 lbs                 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain         2        6.7 %         

1.00 oz               Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min        Hop           3        58.1 IBUs     

0.50 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min        Hop           4        8.3 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 15. Hop           5        12.6 IBUs     

0.50 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  30. Hop           6        6.4 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Steep/Wh Hop           7        9.7 IBUs      

1.0 pkg               Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) [124 Yeast         8        -             

2.00 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days    Hop           9        0.0 IBUs      


Mash Schedule: Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs
----------------------------
Name              Description                        Step Temperat Step Time         
Mash In           Add 21.62 qt of water at 162.1 F   152.0 F       60 min            
Mash Step         Add 0.01 qt of water and heat to 1 168.0 F       1 min             

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 4.35gal) of 168.0 F water

 

[IslandLizard]

Based on brewtime's recipe, the kit's instructions from Flying Dog, and an email conversation with a brewer at Flying Dog, I brewed the following recipe this last weekend. I'll report back on how it turns out. [...]

What did the conversation with the FD brewer reveal?
I see you're clocking in at 95 IBU. Which is probably closer to the real RB than 60s.

 

[thekraken]

What did the conversation with the FD brewer reveal?

C60 is somewhere between 1-6% of the grain bill, late kettle and whirlpool hop blends consist of columbus amarillo, 2-3 oz amarillo for dry hop, and use a good belgian wit strain. I just took this info, and brewtimes recipe as a guide, then used beersmith calculators to adjust gravity and srm to about what the specs call for, then adjusted everything to nice round numbers.

He didn't get real exact, for example he said "the quantity of late kettle hops depends on your collection". He's probably used to brewing this at a slightly larger scale than me... probably. Anyway, he was extremely open and helpful.

I see you're clocking in at 95 IBU. Which is probably closer to the real RB than 60s.

Reading the instructions from Flying Dog, I took it as calculate 60 IBU with the 90 minute addition only, don't worry about the later additions. Conveniently enough, according to beersmith, 1oz of warrior at 90 minutes is about 60 IBU. Did I already mention that I like round numbers?

*Note that I didn't adjust the aa% to the actual hops I had from beersmith's defaults, but they are close.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thank you for the additional "insider" info. I've been puzzled by the RB recipes posted and brewers claiming it was "spot on" while I don't think any of them are even close. Cloning Arrogant Bastard has been hard too, although if we keep trying we will get close eventually.

The biggest problems in cloning is we are not sure about their "actual" ingredients and percentages while scaling up or down at that magnitude changes things drastically. Equipment and process play a huge role. For one it takes a commercial brewery a lot longer to chill their wort than it takes us. Their wort volume/kettle surface ratio is also much larger than ours, changing kettle reactions.

IBU calculations. I don't think they work past say 60-100 IBU. I doubt the formulas Tinseth, Garetz, and Rager were developed to operate at the higher hop levels we use today.

 

[grathan]

Be sure to post back. I did a clone a couple years ago and found that the yeast was a big part of this beer. I used Belgian Ardennes wyeast 3522. Actually I used the recipe on the first page of this thread.

 

[IslandLizard]

Be sure to post back. I did a clone a couple years ago and found that the yeast was a big part of this beer. I used Belgian Ardennes wyeast 3522.

Yes of course, please report back.

I've been using 3522 too and really like it. But it's very possible FD uses a Witbier strain. I was going to split my last batch, but ended up using 3522 again for all of it.

I'll be brewing it again and see if I can split it between 3522 and 3944.

 

[grathan]

Those yeasts aren't similar at all to me. The one tastes exactly like raging bitch and the other taste like a wit beer. I fermented at 61-63*F.

 

[thekraken]

Be sure to post back. I did a clone a couple years ago and found that the yeast was a big part of this beer. I used Belgian Ardennes wyeast 3522. Actually I used the recipe on the first page of this thread.

Will do. I have to admit this brew was sort of an opportunistic last minute decision and could have used more preparation. Hopefully that wont reflect too poorly in the batch. I expect to brew it again. A good Raging (or belgian ipa) recipe is something I plan on making a staple around my house anyway

 

[thekraken]

Those yeasts aren't similar at all to me. The one tastes exactly like raging bitch and the other taste like a wit beer. I fermented at 61-63*F.

Sound's like a split test batch is in order. The FD brewer did specifically say use belgian wit strain, but maybe they hadn't had their morning coffee yet?

 

[IslandLizard]

Those yeasts aren't similar at all to me. The one tastes exactly like raging bitch and the other taste like a wit beer. I fermented at 61-63*F.

Sound's like a split test batch is in order. The FD brewer did specifically say use belgian wit strain, but maybe they hadn't had their morning coffee yet?

I've never tasted the Witbier yeast version (WY3944/WLP400), but I too expect it to be quite different from one fermented with 3522. Most recipes I've found use Witbier yeast, but you know how things get duplicated or taken for truth without much thought or taste.

FD uses El Diablo, and from what I heard supplies that with their (seasonal) kit. There are some notes in this thread about that kit and yeast.

I really like the esters from 3522. The last time (5/5/14) it looks like I had it at 65-67°F for 2 weeks, then raised to ambient (77-79°F) to condition out for another 2 weeks. Cold crashed, kegged and dry hopped in keg with 2oz of Amarillo for a week at ambient temps. OG 1.081 (a bit high, but what the heck), FG 1.010.

 

[thekraken]

FD uses El Diablo, and from what I heard supplies that with their (seasonal) kit.

It would be awesome if someone close the brewery, say like within an hours drive, could get a hold of some El Diablo and share it with the town folk! ahem

 

[IslandLizard]

It would be awesome if someone close the brewery, say like within an hours drive, could get a hold of some El Diablo and share it with the town folk! ahem

Why do I feel someone is looking at me? I'm more than 1 hour away, and rarely go in that direction. Besides, I don't have that kind of connection.

If someone does, that would be great! But realize... many breweries don't share their yeast anymore. Not sure if anyone has approached FD about that though. It wasn't 100% clear to me what yeast actually comes with the kit, and how it is supplied. We know breweries don't fill WLP tubes. Maybe a Mason jar if you're lucky to know the right person.

 

[thekraken]

Regarding Flying Dog's instruction sheet:

At step 15 we are to drop the temp to 50F dry hop/condition for 10 days. At this length of time would this essentially be cold crashing? Or should I go ahead and do the usual cold crash after the 10 day 50F rest? OR dry hop at 50F for 8 days and then do a usual cold crash for a couple days?

 

[IslandLizard]

After fermentation has nearly completed, most yeasts benefit from conditioning at a few degrees higher than fermentation temps. I would not skip that. Some brewers dry hop during the extended conditioning period, but some hop aroma will drop out with the yeast, later on.

50F is not low enough for a cold crash, you'll need to take it down to 32-36F for that. Now 10 days at 50F will settle a lot of that yeast, but I doubt it will completely clear it. You're using WY3944/WLP400, right? That's a slow flocculator. Remember your starter?

Maybe those instructions are for bottlers. You can dry hop in the keg.
I usually cold crash after conditioning, rack to keg and dry hop in there (in a suspended muslin bag) at low ambient temps.

In this case, I guess you could dry hop at 50F for 10 days, perhaps a few days longer, then cold crash and keg. Doesn't sound bad, just different. Or omit the cold crash and let it drop out while it's carbonating for a week at 36F.

 

[thekraken]

Yep, I used 3944. Iv been slowly ramping up to 72 to clean up and finish the fermentation. I'm deviating from FD instructions by skipping the transfer to secondary.

Iv never done a 10 day conditioning at 50 deg, or even heard of that before, so that is why I was wondering if it was supposed to achieve the same results as a cold crash. Also, the instructions don't say anything about cold crashing so I was wondering how it would be best to throw that in to the mix.

I'll cold crash after the 10 day dry hop as you suggested.

Any idea what is the 50 degree rest supposed to achieve, or why FD would recommend it?

(My first time through any kind of recipe I try not to deviate from the instructions too much so that I can establish a base line)

 

[IslandLizard]

Yep, I used 3944. Iv been slowly ramping up to 72 to clean up and finish the fermentation. I'm deviating from FD instructions by skipping the transfer to secondary.

Ah, good, we're on the same page. Secondary is old hat, at least for this kind of beer, unless you want to save cleaner yeast.

Iv never done a 10 day conditioning at 50 deg, or even heard of that before, so that is why I was wondering if it was supposed to achieve the same results as a cold crash. Also, the instructions don't say anything about cold crashing so I was wondering how it would be best to throw that in to the mix.

Neither have I. 50F is a very curious temperature point since it's below the yeast's range of doing anything and way above cold crash temps. Now time and temp go hand in hand, so they may combine yeast settling with dry hopping.

I yet have to see kit instructions to mention cold crashing. You've got to subscribe to HBT to know that term.

Commercial brewers move their beer into Brite tanks for clearing and carbonation. They must be under 36F, probably closer to 26-30F with some pressure to speed things up.

I'll cold crash after the 10 day dry hop as you suggested.

The only drawback is that some hop aroma is crashing out with whatever suspended 3944 yeast is leftover after 10 days at 50F. Maybe not all that much. Remember they use a more flocculent El Diablo yeast, not 3944.

IIRC, commercial breweries dry hop in fermentation tanks, by recirculation, before entering brite tanks.

Any idea what is the 50 degree rest supposed to achieve, or why FD would recommend it?

Nope. It maybe something that works in their process. Curious to know what.

(My first time through any kind of recipe I try not to deviate from the instructions too much so that I can establish a base line)

Ha, take kit instructions with a big gulp of IPA. Or shred them. They tend to be more wrong than good. Just the mentioning of secondaries is a tip off.

 

[thekraken]

Well, I went to the source, they said to take the beer to 50F to drop the yeast out of suspension to prepare for dry hopping. They didn't say but I assume you can then raise the temp back up to 70ish for better hop utilization. After you cold crash, if you raise the temp again would the yeast just kick back up again or would they stay dropped out?

 

[IslandLizard]

Take a look at this hopping/dry hopping article.

I think most of your questions are being addressed there. They mention something about yeast dropping at 60F while they're dry hopping. This may depend on the strain, though.

 

[edroberts]

I saw the thread and figured it involved something like keeping your wife up all night. "Why would anyone want to clone THAT?"

 

[thekraken]

^ Ha!

IslandLizard: Thanks for posting link. I had read that article before and forgotten about it I guess. All very relevant information, thank you for the reminder.

 

[IslandLizard]

I saw the thread and figured it involved something like keeping your wife up all night. "Why would anyone want to clone THAT?"

Good thinking, but you still had to sniff it out, huh?

I'm convinced the beer's name is an homage not only to my ex but to many of ours. Could that be a reason why we like it so much.

 

[thekraken]

After brewing my clone recipe and posting here I then found the Can You Brew It clone recipe for rage. This is a recipe derived directly from a conversation with a Flying Dog brewer. I know some of you have even posted in that thread, I just wanted to reference the podcast and the hbt thread here for other people in the future:
Recipe https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-flying-dog-raging-bitch-313458/
Podcast http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/856

The one thing that recipe leaves out is dry hopping, from listening to the podcast I kind of get the impression that they just forgot to talk about it . Considering the stove topper recipe I would add 2-3 oz of Amarillo for dry hopping to the linked recipe.

So, pending results from my current fermenting batch, I'm planning on tweaking my previous recipe to use no more than 6% crystal, 0.25 oz each of amarillo and ctz at 15 min, and 0.75 oz each of amarillo and ctz at whirlpool.

 

[thekraken]

So I packaged last night and had a taste. It's still too young to really judge but one thing I do notice is that the Belgian character is too mild. So either I need to ferment at higher temperatures or give the ardennes 3522 a shot. I started fermenting at about 67F and after a few days coasted up to 72F.

 

[Shenanigans]

I finally got to try a bottle of the original today.
Very tasty but must admit I'm a bit disappointed that they filtered the sh!t out of it. Maybe I have a false perception of what a Belgian IPA should be like but I thought it would have some yeast in it.

I tried cloning this beer last year using a witbier yeast and the CYBI recipe and I loved it. I really liked shaking up the bottle at the end and adding the sediment; the tartness of the yeast blended perfectly with the hops. I'm going to rebrew and make a split batch of Raging Bitch and Snake Dog because I have a pile of Columbus I want to use.

 

[Shenanigans]

Well I really killed this thread.

 

[brewtime]

I finally got to try a bottle of the original today.

Very tasty but must admit I'm a bit disappointed that they filtered the sh!t out of it. Maybe I have a false perception of what a Belgian IPA should be like but I thought it would have some yeast in it.



I tried cloning this beer last year using a witbier yeast and the CYBI recipe and I loved it. I really liked shaking up the bottle at the end and adding the sediment; the tartness of the yeast blended perfectly with the hops. I'm going to rebrew and make a split batch of Raging Bitch and Snake Dog because I have a pile of Columbus I want to use.

This an IPA not a Wit so it being filtered is a non issue in this beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

I finally got to try a bottle of the original today.
Very tasty but must admit I'm a bit disappointed that they filtered the sh!t out of it. Maybe I have a false perception of what a Belgian IPA should be like but I thought it would have some yeast in it.

I tried cloning this beer last year using a witbier yeast and the CYBI recipe and I loved it. I really liked shaking up the bottle at the end and adding the sediment; the tartness of the yeast blended perfectly with the hops. I'm going to rebrew and make a split batch of Raging Bitch and Snake Dog because I have a pile of Columbus I want to use.

Although tasty from a bottle, there's nothing like having RB from a tap. Something gets lost in the bottle. Can be due to age, or something else. Flying Dog is not the only brewery I've noticed this with. Stone has it too. Even their Enjoy By is much better on tap, and those bottles simply can't be that old.

I found Snake Dog a bit underwhelming and thin, but never had it from a tap. I'm sure you can brew this one a bit better yourself.

I wouldn't shy away from dry hopping any of those, they're IPAs after all, and need some of that in-your-face hop aroma. Historically, the Brits added a minimum of 4 pounds of hops to a barrel for the long voyage to India. Now those were noble hops, not Amarillo or Columbus.