Pumpkin in Boil or mash? Both?

[JoeBronco]

Im brewing a Pumpkin ale and was wondering what the difference in taste or complexity does adding pumpkin to the mash vs boil add.

I will be using 60oz of Libbys 100% pumpkin, and baking it at 350* for 20-30 minutes first. I was thinking about doing 1/2 in the mash (cooked) and 1/2 in the boil (un-cooked)

Does anyone have any experience with brewing with pumpkin?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

If you have the ability and patience to prevent/deal with stuck sparges then put it in the mash. In my opinion it prevents a ton of dead loss from the boil and trub in primary and (possible) secondary.

This recipe has never failed me with pumpkin in the mash.

 

[JoeBronco]

If you have the ability and patience to prevent/deal with stuck sparges then put it in the mash. In my opinion it prevents a ton of dead loss from the boil and trub in primary and (possible) secondary.

This recipe has never failed me with pumpkin in the mash.

I have a conical so im not worried about trub. I can just drop it out into my "trub bucket". Im more interested in the difference in flavor.

Cooked vs Uncooked
Mash vs Boil

Thanks for the link though, its VERY similar to what im doing.

 

[Bigmoose44]

I have diced fresh pumpkin and baked it till soft then add to the mash. It makes a great ale.

Bruce

 

[JoeBronco]

Im looking for a "smack you in the face pumpkin flavor". Similar to DFH's Pumpkin beer.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well you can actually make a pumpkin ale without putting any pumpkin in at all. Granted, the pumpkin does add caramelized flavor when cooked but that can also be achieved from cara- malts. The real in-your-face pumpkin flavor comes from the pumpkin pie spices you add at the end of the boil.

 

[JoeBronco]

Im putting a bit of 60L in the mix as well. Gets me thinking. I should add 20oz of pumpkin to the boil with 10 minutes left to give it that extra real pumpkin flavor.... The other 40oz in the mash...

I dont like the "pumpkin spices" that come in the container. But make my own from Allspice, Cloves, Cinnamon and nutmeg.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Im putting a bit of 60L in the mix as well. Gets me thinking. I should add 20oz of pumpkin to the boil with 10 minutes left to give it that extra real pumpkin flavor.... The other 40oz in the mash...

I dont like the "pumpkin spices" that come in the container. But make my own from Allspice, Cloves, Cinnamon and nutmeg.

Sounds good.

And as for the spices, did the container stuff the first time and the ratio was perfect. Second time I tried making my own mix.... it was good but not quite as awesome. So I've stuck with McCormick's since

 

[JoeBronco]

Sounds good.

And as for the spices, did the container stuff the first time and the ratio was perfect. Second time I tried making my own mix.... it was good but not quite as awesome. So I've stuck with McCormick's since

Being my first i kinda want to experment with it. Next time ill try the McCormick.

 

[jfowler1]

This is going to be one of those crappy answers that don't really address your questions; none the less it is worth saying.

As a previous poster mentioned, the great pumpkin pie aroma you get from a Pumking or DFH Punk'd is really from the spices, and the sweet and toasty flavors are all from the grains. The flavor from an undoctored pumpkin or butternut squash is really not that appealing. It just tastes vegetal.

I understand why you are torn. There is a fundamental issue with calling something a pumpkin ale when you completely omit pumpkin from the recipe. However, I'll give you two things to think about. Canned pumpkin in the mash is a documented disaster. In most suggested quantities, it makes sparging nearly impossible. Honestly, I never tried it myself, but read up on mashing with pumpkin puree and decide for yourself if it sounds like a fun time. I'll pass. I have personally tried baking puree and adding it to the boil. It was equally terrible. The trub was unreal, and that vegetal pumpkin flavor I mentioned earlier completely dominated the beer. It looked more like pumpkin soup than pumpkin ale. IIRC, I used 1 large can of Libby's, and it was 1 large can too much. From experience, I would advise against it.

That said, I strongly suggest finding a great recipe for a lightly hopped American amber or brown ale. The caramel and toasty notes in those styles would work great in a pumpkin ale. I would consider a blend of crystal malts in the 60-120 range for sweetness, and also an addition of a toasted malt (Victory, Aromatic, Biscuit) to capture the pie crust flavor. The only pumpkin I would re-consider adding is maybe a 1/4 or 1/2 of a small sugar pumpkin, baked, and just insert it gently into the already stirred mash (sugar pumpkin may be tough to find this time of year). I would also fish it back out before I started sparging. This way you can honestly say it was a beer made with pumpkin, but you are not relying on it to impart any flavor or a bulk of fermentables. After the boil is finished, add your spices to the wort, either in a hot whirlpool, or just steeped a few minutes before you turn on your chiller. Boiling the spices will completely blow off their aroma.

To recap - real pumpkin in process (check), sweet and toasty flavors (check), pumpkin pie aroma (check).

In fairness, I was kind of soured on pumpkin beers after one bad experience, but feel free to experiment as you like. Just make sure you update this thread with your results.

Good Luck,
Joe

 

[JoeBronco]

This is going to be one of those crappy answers that don't really address your questions; none the less it is worth saying.

As a previous poster mentioned, the great pumpkin pie aroma you get from a Pumking or DFH Punk'd is really from the spices, and the sweet and toasty flavors are all from the grains. The flavor from an undoctored pumpkin or butternut squash is really not that appealing. It just tastes vegetal.

I understand why you are torn. There is a fundamental issue with calling something a pumpkin ale when you completely omit pumpkin from the recipe. However, I'll give you two things to think about. Canned pumpkin in the mash is a documented disaster. In most suggested quantities, it makes sparging nearly impossible. Honestly, I never tried it myself, but read up on mashing with pumpkin puree and decide for yourself if it sounds like a fun time. I'll pass. I have personally tried baking puree and adding it to the boil. It was equally terrible. The trub was unreal, and that vegetal pumpkin flavor I mentioned earlier completely dominated the beer. It looked more like pumpkin soup than pumpkin ale. IIRC, I used 1 large can of Libby's, and it was 1 large can too much. From experience, I would advise against it.

That said, I strongly suggest finding a great recipe for a lightly hopped American amber or brown ale. The caramel and toasty notes in those styles would work great in a pumpkin ale. I would consider a blend of crystal malts in the 60-120 range for sweetness, and also an addition of a toasted malt (Victory, Aromatic, Biscuit) to capture the pie crust flavor. The only pumpkin I would re-consider adding is maybe a 1/4 or 1/2 of a small sugar pumpkin, baked, and just insert it gently into the already stirred mash (sugar pumpkin may be tough to find this time of year). I would also fish it back out before I started sparging. This way you can honestly say it was a beer made with pumpkin, but you are not relying on it to impart any flavor or a bulk of fermentables. After the boil is finished, add your spices to the wort, either in a hot whirlpool, or just steeped a few minutes before you turn on your chiller. Boiling the spices will completely blow off their aroma.

To recap - real pumpkin in process (check), sweet and toasty flavors (check), pumpkin pie aroma (check).

In fairness, I was kind of soured on pumpkin beers after one bad experience, but feel free to experiment as you like. Just make sure you update this thread with your results.

Good Luck,
Joe

I understand the situation and take what you said to heart. BUT i am one of those type of people that needs to try things for himself before i throw in the towel. I was already adding the Biscuit and Carmel. With the addition of Demerara sugar (an organic REAL brown cane sugar).

My grain bill is this.
7.00 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row)
0.33 lbs Gr. Western Wheat malt
0.83 lbs DWC Biscuit
1.66 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt 50-60L
2.00 Cans (60 oz) Pumpkin, Canned
0.50 lbs Demerara Sugar
0.50 lbs rice hulls.

Im cooking all 60oz of the pumpkin and putting 40oz in the mash with 20oz in the boil. Its a ton easier to deal with the trub because i have a conical that i can drop trub from without disturbing the beer. With a 1/2 pound of rice hulls (only 1/4 lbs was suggested) i think i should be OK with spargeing.

Ill document my efforts with photos and post them up for here throughout the day.

 

[jfowler1]

i am one of those type of people that needs to try things for himself before i throw in the towel.

That's completely fair. God Speed, and please let us know how it goes.

Joe

 

[BKmyWAY]

If you are tuning in your process this sounds reasonable, but if you are trying to find where the better taste comes from I would suggest trying all in one or the other. It sounds like you were planning on doing this recipe more than once, so why not just change the one variable and know what the affect of when the pumpkin is added has on the final flavor?

I know that was probably what you were trying to find by posting this...

 

[Valcarde]

When I made an extract pumpkin ale, I used a medium-sized pumpkin, roasted in the oven for 45 minutes at 400oF. Removed the skin and added it to the boil.

Strained the wort before putting it into the fermenter which removed most of the pumpkin (since it was fresh pumpkin and not pureed, it was a lot easier to remove) and the spices expected.

It turned out very tasty, lots of pumpkin pie flavor.

I'll post my recipe when I get home from work.

 

[MNDan]

My next pumpkin beer will be using the Penzy's pumpkin spice mix. Top quality spices, so I'm hoping it'll turn out great if I can get the amt right. I've had good luck roasting pumpkin in my oven for use in the mash, though I don't think the pumpkin itself really adds that much flavor. It's the spices that do it.

 

[TheWeeb]

Here was my take on an imperial pumkin ale:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/lady-rumpkin-pumpkin-rum-ale-214177/

Yes, huge soupy mess in the primary from the use of canned pumpkin, but I used an extra large nylon bag racking to secondary and was able to get most of it out. Baking the pumpkin to where it had almost a burned crust, with some of the spice and molasses added a nice caramel flavor I think.

Another thing to consider is of course what the yeast brings to the party. The Trappist strain I used really brought the fruit to the party (plums), which I think enhanced the pumpkin flavors.

 

[bruin_ale]

I make a good pumpkin spice ale, using pie pumpkins in the mash. I do as others have said, I cut it into small cubes and roast it in the oven for about an hour - then add it to the mash. No stuck sparges, and the flavor from the pumpkin is definitely there but not vegetal. Mine is more of a pumpkin spiced stout than the typical pumpkin ale, as it's my winter seasonal and I like it to be more of a "warmer"

Good luck, it's way too early in the year for me to start thinking about brewing a pumpkin beer. I typically wait until I see the sugar baking pumpkins show up at the market and then I go for it. It's usually ready around halloween or right before thanksgiving depending on when I get the chance to brew it.

 

[izatt82]

my pumpkin ale is basically a brown ale that i take a pie pumpkin chunk it up and boil it for a bit, then peal the skin off. slice into cubes roast them in the oven at 350 for a bit and put those in the mash. do not use puree unless you want a super stuck sparge. then in the boil i add cloves, nutmeg, all spice, and cinnamon. the pumpkin really doesn't add that much, but i just can't make myself call it a pumpkin ale with out it. Also a lot of the can pumpkin filling really isn't pumpkin.

 

[andrew300]

I make a pumpkin ale every year and it has 5-6 lbs of baked pie pumpkins in the mash. I have not had any issue with lautering, only that it takes a little longer and I do not even add rice hulls. The beer is amazing and I don't get any vegetable flavors what so ever. I have not tried it without the pumpkin, but I would be surprized if it tastes the same. I bake the pumpkins until they are caramelized. The starches in the pumpkin do get converted to sugars.

 

[Wheezer]

What about enzymatic processes? I prefer in the mash due to a greater control of conversion. Pumpkin in the boil is great if that is what you decide to do. I have tried both however, and got a greater conversion of fermentables in the mash as well as noticed that pumpkin in the boil has a greater propensity to produce haze problems.

 

[JoeBronco]

Photos coming...

Got the Mash on the burner starting to boil!

 

[Dr. Francois]

If you have access to it, Trader Joe's has a really nice pumpkin pie spice. It has little chunks of orange zest in it...a nice surprise.

The Spice House in Chicago has a great one, too.

I'm with the folks who say the pumpkin doesn't bring the pumpkin flavor to the party. It makes the beer fuller and richer. Focus on your spicing.

Best of luck!

 

[JoeBronco]

Heres the breakdown...

Pumpkin in the oven at 350* for 30 minutes
I let it cool so that it wouldn't heat up the mash to hot

mash tun and SS Kettle

Ingredients
I like to break up spices and hops and put them into containers marked at what time they will go into the boil. Makes it easier for me and if i have a helper.
Rice Hulls say. .25 but there is .5lbs there.

Mashing in at 154* on the nose

This way i can check my mash temp and not have to open the mash tun. Its just a deep fryer thermostat pushed into a small hole i drilled in the top of the tun. Its removable so i can still use the thermostat to check my sparge water temp.

ONE HOUR LATER!!!

 

[JoeBronco]

Mash looks good!

Just the right temperature! 154* Didn't drop at all! Gotta love the NASA rated radiant barrier insulation. One of the perks of working in construction for a company sponsored by NASA.

No Stuck sparge. A little slower than normal, but still moving good.
The 1/2 lbs of Rice Hulls really did the trick!

Wort looks good! Time to start the boil!

 

[JoeBronco]

The First wort reading was at about 1.072 (Wort was still in the 90* mark and i didnt feel like waiting for it to cool. Its only the first wort reading anyway, not the OG.)

For those of you that say adding pumpkin doesn't add anything to the beer are mistaken. The wort has a strong pumpkin finish. Nothing up front yet, but i expect that's where the seasonings will come into play.

 

[JoeBronco]

Og = 1.064 @ 65*
From boil to 65* was 30 minutes

Im letting the wort settle and im going to transfer to my conical in about 30 more minutes to pitch the Nottingham yeast.


If it turns out good i may have to add it to the recipe section!

 

[rgontasz]

I put 60oz of canned into my mash along with a full #of rice hulls and had no problems. after primary it was crystal clear! Try adding mace and ginger to your spice mix.

 

[JoeBronco]

I didn't add mace but i did add ginger root.
you cant walk by my "fermentation" closet now and not smell the pumpkin!

 

[jfowler1]

Awesome.

Glad to hear it went so well.

Joe

 

[JoeBronco]

Awesome.

Glad to hear it went so well.

Joe

Thanks! Hope it taste as smooth as this day went. I think its the rice hulls that made the difference. There was a lot more in that 1/2 lbs bag than i thought.

 

[EO74]

I tried both ways an imo flovor was smoother when mashed, more in your face when boiled. Ironicly im drinking the boiled libbys right now.My wife likes punkin beer i tried two recipes, should have done 2.5gal instead of 5! OOOOHHHH MAN in sick of punkin beer but ya gotta clear the pipe line good luck!

 

[cimirie]

A few posters have mentioned that pumpkin is not necessary for a good pumpkin ale. While I 100% agree that the more primary aspects can be reached with using only pumpkin spices, I 100% disagree that you get the full pumpkin ale character without pumpkin.

I use canned pumpkin all the time. I roast it at 350 in the oven until it begins to brown and then add it to the mash. I've done this for years and have NEVER had a stuck sparge. I use plenty of rice hulls and drain a touch slower than normal. It is not the disaster some would have you believe (although, it could be without the rice hulls).

The correct orange copper color in a good pumpkin ale can't come from grains. The correct mouthfeel could be approximated without pumpkin, but you'd have to play with it. AND the "vegetal" taste to the pumpkin (which is extremely subtle) is what makes a pumpkin ale a pumpkin ale. It is the subtle nuance that makes this brew special. You can male a great spiced fall ale without pumpkin. You CAN'T make a pumpkin ale without one.

Good on ya and good luck!

 

[JoeBronco]

I tried both ways an imo flovor was smoother when mashed, more in your face when boiled. Ironicly im drinking the boiled libbys right now.My wife likes punkin beer i tried two recipes, should have done 2.5gal instead of 5! OOOOHHHH MAN in sick of punkin beer but ya gotta clear the pipe line good luck!

This is what i was hoping for.

Thats why i did a 60/40 mix with the pumpkin in mash and boil. Im hoping to get the smoothness from the mash with the kick you in the teeth flavor from the late boil.

So far its there and the color is dead on!

 

[payton34]

i made a pumpkin beer that all my friends and wife really liked. (not a big pumpkin fan myself) baked the pumpkin put all of it in the mash. i decided to enter it in a competition only got 27 points. the judges had trouble tasting the pumpkin. might try some in the boil next fall

 

[JasonToews]

I always enjoy making pumpkin ale. I add it in the mash and the boil, have had no problems with stuck sparge. "knock on wood". Excellent flavor comes through in the end.

 

[Zamial]

I am going to add in my twist here, only because I have had never had a beer that disappeared faster or was so sadly missed. I made 12 gallons in 2 - 6 gallon carboys and had some left over, so I did a yeast experiment. I did a variant but closly followed the Samhain pumpkin ale recipe seen here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/samhain-pumpkin-ale-140674/ (Thanks KingBrianI!!!) and the only variation over all I had was yeast.

I used: Wyeast Irish Ale, US-04, US-05 and did the majority of the batch with Denny's fav 50. The Denny's makes the beer. Hands down. I can promise you that I will only use the Denny's in all my pumpkin ales because of the way the yeast seems to react with the pumpkin to enhance/amplify the taste/feel. Last year I used a bunch of organic canned pumpkin because of the shortage, which would have equaled out to 2 large cans of the Libby's per 6 gallons. This year I am going to up it by one more large can. If you wanted to really have an "in your face" I would use 4 large cans of Libby's or more per 6 gallons. FYI I toasted per the recipe and added to the mash. I would use LOTS and LOTS of rice hulls...

GL!

 

[jww9618]

Do you mind posting the recipe? I saw your grain bill but not the spices or hops. Let us know how it turns out. Thanks

 

[JoeBronco]

No problem. Ill end up putting a thread in the recipe section if it turns out good. So far it tastes like your drinking a pumpkin and its still green. I hope it doesn't change much.

Yeast
2 pkts Nottingham

I used Nottingham because it tends to bring the best out in fruit/vedg beers.
Its a little estery but the esters are on the sweeter side.

Malt / Grains
7.00 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row)
0.33 lbs Gr. Western Wheat malt
0.83 lbs DWC Biscuit
1.66 lbs Hugh Baird Caramel/Crystal Malt 50-60L

Spices
0.25 oz Ginger @ 10 min
8.00 oz Demetura Brown Sugar @ 10 min
1.00 Ea Cinnamon Stick @ 10 min
1.50 Tsp Cinnamon @ 5 Min
1.00 Tsp Allspice @ 5 Min
0.50 Tsp Nutmeg @ 5 Min
0.50 tsp Crushed Cloves @ 5 Min
0.50 Tsp Allspice @ Flameout
1.00 Ea Cinnamon Stick @ Secondary

Other
60.00 oz Libbys Pumpkin Mix (see notes)
0.50 lbs Rice Hulls @ Mash
1.00 Ea Whirlfloc tab @ 10 Min
1.00 Ea Yeast Nutrient @ 10 Min

Hop Schedule
0.75 oz East Kent Goldings @ 60 Min
0.25 oz East Kent Goldings @ 15 Min


Mash @ 154 for 60 Minutes
Gallons of Wort Before boil 6.00 Gal
Qts per LBS 1.72 Qts (thin mash because of the pumpkin)
LBS of Fermentables 9.82 Lbs
Qts of Mash water 16.89 Qts
SRM is around 14

Bake Pumpkin in a shallow baking sheet on 350* for 20-30 minutes. I baked the pumpkin until it was slightly brown on the top. I suggest using at least 1/4 lbs Rice hulls if not 1/2 lbs. My first batch had 1/2 lbs and it sparged like a normal IPA. Stir 40 oz baked pumpkin into into mash and 20 oz into the boil at 10 minutes. After the wort cools let it sit for 30-40 minutes to settle before you rack to primary. If you hav a conical it will be easy to deal with Trub, if not prepare to have at least 1/2 gallon of trub.

 

[Dynachrome]

When I made an extract pumpkin ale, I used a medium-sized pumpkin, roasted in the oven for 45 minutes at 400oF. Removed the skin and added it to the boil.

Strained the wort before putting it into the fermenter which removed most of the pumpkin (since it was fresh pumpkin and not pureed, it was a lot easier to remove) and the spices expected.

It turned out very tasty, lots of pumpkin pie flavor.

I'll post my recipe when I get home from work.

I'm looking for a recipe that has just pumpkin pie spice added.

Valcarde, You mentioned in a thread I started that you used just pumpkin pie spice, but you didn't comment on the size of your batch or how much spice to use. When you get a chance, I'd be interested in seeing your recipe.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I've had good results adding 1.5 Tbsp of mccormick's pumpkin pie spice with 5 minutes left in the boil for a 5 gallon batch