Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Knightshade]

I've somehow managed to equate the necessity around purchasing an electric car/truck to needing AC in my house. When the weather gets to the point where I need AC, I'll only do so after installing solar because the price of electricity around here is stupid.

And since I don't plan on installing AC anytime soon, I'm probably not going to get solar, which means I won't get an electric car/truck.

The place where I work requires a parking permit (what I call a Pay for the privilege of working here tax) which is close to $1K a year, so I actually hate driving my car to work. After 2 years of ownership, it has less than 9K miles. I was riding my motorcycle to work for awhile because the permit is a lot less expensive, but even that was getting old.

I purchased an e-bike around Xmas time last year w/the intention of riding that work...and then covid hit. Calling that thing a bicycle is a joke btw, it is considered a Class 2 but hits 30 mph all throttle easily. Stupid fun.

Funny how life works sometimes. Fast forward a year and I now own a 2012 Chevy Volt. Family friend was upgrading and I’ve got twins who just turned 16 and now I don’t need to buy the wife a new car. She is bummed but that non car payment is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Kent88]

Not a ford guy, but I figured I'd share anyways.

I tried to cut through a bunch of the BS sales pitch, but it's a truck reveal, so you can't get away from all of it.



2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Revealed! The Electric Pickup Has a Shockingly Low Price, Mega Specs

 

[AzOr]

That Ford is sweet! However, for my purposes, I'd rather have an electric commuter and a gas or diesel truck.
I've read that towing even at half capacity reduces the ev range by 60 or 70%.

The thought of going on vac with the family and having to stop for an hour or so to recharge and having to deal with maneuvering a travel trailer in a charging spot- not fun.

I figure if I'm only burning fossil fuels one or two weekends a month still makes me an enviro.

 

[Kent88]

That Ford is sweet! However, for my purposes, I'd rather have an electric commuter and a gas or diesel truck.
I've read that towing even at half capacity reduces the ev range by 60 or 70%.

Reduces by 60%-70%? So the 300 mile range that Lightning offers would instantly be 90 miles? I guess I wouldn't be horribly surprised, but I hope that would be an overestimation.

The thought of going on vac with the family and having to stop for an hour or so to recharge and having to deal with maneuvering a travel trailer in a charging spot- not fun.

How far do you drive when you go on vacation? How frequently are you going? Is renting a vehicle to tow your trailer an option? Or renting a camper closer to your destination, perhaps?

I figure if I'm only burning fossil fuels one or two weekends a month still makes me an enviro.

Nah, you gotta go buy something like this:
P17A Mobile Room | Polydrops | Travel Trailer for EVs

 

[Kent88]

Pope Francis' newest popemobile will be all electric

 

[Kent88]

A little off topic as it isn't land based transportation:

Could electric airplanes propel a third revolution in aviation?

NOVA | Great Electric Airplane Race | Season 48 | Episode 7

 

[Kharnynb]

not until they figure out much better/lighter batteries, the biggest issue with airplanes is fuelweight and you won't get a decent sized plane in the air with 30 times the weight in batteries that you'd need in kerosine.

 

[TwistedGray]

not until they figure out much better/lighter batteries, the biggest issue with airplanes is fuelweight and you won't get a decent sized plane in the air with 30 times the weight in batteries that you'd need in kerosine.

But we're talking about cars? *Scratches Head*

 

[doug293cz]

But we're talking about cars? *Scratches Head*

You missed a post.

Brew on

 

[renstyle]

But we're talking about cars? *Scratches Head*

to be fair, I'd have plans to get an electric plane in addition to the car... but I can't print my own cash yet LOL

 

[Kent88]

Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lithium from seawater

 

[ehall]

I thought this was interesting. quite the investment...
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2021/06/03/inconvenience-stores/

 

[doug293cz]

I thought this was interesting. quite the investment...
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2021/06/03/inconvenience-stores/

The article is dripping with bias. I wonder how the author feels about government subsidies for fossil fuel producers and infrastructure?

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

The article is dripping with bias. I wonder how the author feels about government subsidies for fossil fuel producers and infrastructure?

Brew on

Thanks for bringing it up!

I do NOT like govt subsidies for anything. Who likes big govt? My wife's ENTIRE salary, gross, went to pay our taxes last year. F that. Up the feds. Let the market figure it out. Our founding forefathers would be shocked by the overreach allowed by our greedy populace these days.

 

[Kent88]

As someone who grew up in production agriculture, and still has a lot of family either in production agriculture or in a career "adjacent to"/dependant on production agriculture, I think that government subsidies are a useful tool that can do good when they're well thought out before implementation.

/Off topic

 

[ehall]

yea, the author doesn't like subsidies or big govt for anything. but it sounds like if you don't agree with what you read you think is bias regardless of making good points.

 

[Brooothru]

The article is dripping with bias. I wonder how the author feels about government subsidies for fossil fuel producers and infrastructure?

Brew on

Slightly off topic, but I'm purchasing my son's 2017 Prius since their family is expanding by one in September and they need a bigger vehicle to accommodate the new arrival and his two big sisters.

I've been "hybrid curious" for a while but never actually looked seriously into buying one. We no longer need a road cruiser since when we travel distances we cruise in our RV, Big Olaf the Prairie Schooner. So a hybrid/EV will be a perfect local daily driver for us.

What do I need to know about the operation, care and feeding of a hybrid daily driver?

 

[Golddiggie]

Zero interest in getting an electric vehicle. I don't have a 'car' since I have a full size truck.

With how limited the travel range is on these things, I can't ever see getting one. Until they come up with a way to get ~500 miles in a charge, then fully recharge again in <15 minutes for another ~500 miles at least. Even then, there's something very visceral about the sound a good size V8 makes.

 

[Kent88]

What do I need to know about the operation, care and feeding of a hybrid daily driver?

I think that was before Prius came in PHEV. I don't think you'll have to make many adjustments to your routine.

I'm sure it's stating the obvious to tell you t check the owners manual to see the maintenance schedule.

Zero interest in getting an electric vehicle. I don't have a 'car' since I have a full size truck.

With how limited the travel range is on these things, I can't ever see getting one. Until they come up with a way to get ~500 miles in a charge, then fully recharge again in <15 minutes for another ~500 miles at least. Even then, there's something very visceral about the sound a good size V8 makes.

Not many cars out there right now anyway. I got a lot of grief when I bought my Volt because GM was ending production and "if they aren't making them anymore, something must be wrong with them".

GM was ending production on several of their cars. It wasn't a problem with the Volt being a bad car, it was a problem with cars as a whole

Battery tech is advancing pretty quickly. GM's EV Silverado due in the next couple years is supposed to have 400 miles of range on a full charge. Companies are also looking at swappable batteries that basically recharge your range in 10-15 minutes.

Sound isn't everything:
All The Oomph, Minus The Vroom? Electric Pickups Take Aim At American Market

Tesla and Rivian aren't the only companies looking at making EV trucks. GM has an electric Hummer and a Silverado on the way. Ford has their Lightning F-series truck available for preorder now.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I thought this was interesting. quite the investment...
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2021/06/03/inconvenience-stores/

I get the sense that author is reasoning backward from his conclusion...

It's clear right up front that he doesn't like EVs. Acts like nobody is purchasing them of their own volition. Calls them "handicapped". Refers to the "Electrification Cult". That's clear bias.

Second, he makes the assertion that Biden infrastructure spending funds are being used for this... A bill that hasn't been passed yet, and we don't necessarily know what's in it. Nowhere in his post does he justify that tax dollars are being used here. In his linked article and then the linked press release beyond, it doesn't say anything about tax dollars--not that 7-Eleven would hype the use of tax dollars, but the burden of proof should be on him to actually show that tax dollars are used if he has evidence of this.

Third, he acts as if there is no way for 7-Eleven to recoup their investment here... But it's not like most of these chargers will charge you for free... They'll make the cost of electricity plus some margin added on top for these. Does the profit justify the investment? You'd have to ask 7-Eleven's people about that.

Beyond this, the author doesn't really look at some of the reasons why 7-Eleven would do this. One, OF COURSE, is virtue signaling, also known as PR.

But what about other reasons? Most EV owners are more affluent than typical 7-Eleven shoppers, most likely. And having them there for 35-40 minutes makes it much more likely they're going to walk in and purchase something, doesn't it? These may be shoppers that ordinarily would stay the hell away from 7-Eleven... I've had one literally around the corner, within EASY walking distance, for over 5 years, and I have never gone inside or bought anything. Maybe I'm just a snob, I guess, but I'm also guessing that a lot of EV owners might feel the same. Guess what we call those "new" shoppers in the business? "Accretive revenue"...

Just a bad article all the way around. Poorly reasoned, doesn't justify some of its key assertions, and yes, CLEARLY biased.

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm quickly getting on board w/ owning a hybrid. I've got a 2011 135i and 2015 X3, both BMW (love how they drive), both for a while now. Tesla and hybrids were options back then but not nearly as common as now. I live about 5 miles form work with an easy, practically non-stop, drive that barely warms up the engine. Really interested in turning that into an all-electric drive. Maybe the X3 becomes a RAV4 prime or something. The cost analysis is silly, I'll pay far more to update the car than I would save in gas, but as for engine wear and tear, being environmental, etc. I may end up doing it. TBD.

 

[Brooothru]

Zero interest in getting an electric vehicle. I don't have a 'car' since I have a full size truck.

With how limited the travel range is on these things, I can't ever see getting one. Until they come up with a way to get ~500 miles in a charge, then fully recharge again in <15 minutes for another ~500 miles at least. Even then, there's something very visceral about the sound a good size V8 makes.

I get the whole visceral sound thing. I still turn my head every time a Harley drives by, and sometimes I regret being born too late to have sat behind a Pratt & Whitney R3800 series radial in a WWII warbird.

That said, 775 hp instantaneously delivered to all 4 wheels with 0-60 mph in less than 4 seconds in the Ford F-150 Lightning can be exhilarating the same way hitting zone five afterburner in a tactical jet, even if it's not quite as loud.

The F-150 range of 300 miles is more than most people drive in a given day, and 500 mile batteries are likely within the next year or two. Overnight recharging means you never have to stop at a gas station. Judging the lines at gas stations after the Colonial Pipeline hack, a :30 minute stop at a recharging station looks like a NASCAR pit stop. Hell, if you opt for the onboard AC genset, you could 'refuel' yourself!

 

[Golddiggie]

At this point, the ONLY way I'll get an electric Silverado is when my (truck at that time) V8 powered one gets totaled and I cannot get another to replace it. Otherwise, I'll keep it running until I can no longer get fuel for it.

As for the swapping batteries idear... Yeah, hard pass. There's so many ways for that to go sideways it's not even funny. I can think of a handful in just a few seconds. While it MIGHT work in a perfect world/scenario where people are intelligent to follow simple instructions, that's NOT reality. People will F it up at the drop of a hat even if they THINK it's been made "idiot proof". Since everyone knows, that once something is made idiot proof, a bigger/stronger idiot comes around and negates that.

Also keep in mind, if enough people shift to electric vehicles, there will be a significant increase in the load placed on the grid. I highly doubt that's being beefed up enough to handle the increased load. Or will be in time for all these "green" initiatives to come about. Also, how many charging cycles are these batteries good for before they require replacement? What kind of cost will that have? I feel that a LOT of people going after these vehicles don't take that into consideration at all. IIRC, the cost to replace a battery bank (granted it was some years ago when I came across the info) was more than the vehicle would be worth. Which makes them completely disposable at that point.

Electric vehicles are probably "OK" for people living in cities, or close to them. I don't live in a city and place to move further away from any in the next ~12 months (hope to be able to seriously look come start of 2022).

 

[Kent88]

As for the swapping batteries idear... Yeah, hard pass. There's so many ways for that to go sideways it's not even funny. I can think of a handful in just a few seconds. While it MIGHT work in a perfect world/scenario where people are intelligent to follow simple instructions, that's NOT reality. People will F it up at the drop of a hat even if they THINK it's been made "idiot proof". Since everyone knows, that once something is made idiot proof, a bigger/stronger idiot comes around and negates that.

Pumping gas isn't idiot proof either. It doesn't take long to jump over on youtube and find disasters where people start a fire at the pump. And we were just subjected to a bunch of memes of people pumping gas into plastic garbage bags.

It'll also be nice to not have several gallons of highly flammable liquid in my garage.

My prediction is that, in 5-10 years, EV drivers will be able to charge at home for everyday driving and swap batteries for road trips.

Also keep in mind, if enough people shift to electric vehicles, there will be a significant increase in the load placed on the grid. I highly doubt that's being beefed up enough to handle the increased load. Or will be in time for all these "green" initiatives to come about. Also, how many charging cycles are these batteries good for before they require replacement? What kind of cost will that have? I feel that a LOT of people going after these vehicles don't take that into consideration at all. IIRC, the cost to replace a battery bank (granted it was some years ago when I came across the info) was more than the vehicle would be worth. Which makes them completely disposable at that point.

Infrastructure takes time to improve. That was also true when the ICE came along. I doubt that Horatio Nelson Jackson had an easy time driving across the country in 1903. Wouldn't surprise me if there were a few hours spent walking to a nearby town to get fuel here or there along that trek.

Infrastructure will improve. Not sure at what pace, but it will. Probably at a faster pace than many predict.

Most modern EV batteries that I'm aware of are good for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Electric vehicles are probably "OK" for people living in cities, or close to them. I don't live in a city and place to move further away from any in the next ~12 months (hope to be able to seriously look come start of 2022).

I grew up on a farm. I currently live in a small town. I have family members who are still involved in production agriculture. I've driven trucks that tow livestock trailers, full hay wagons, boats, etc. I'll tell you that, when we'd tow livestock trailers and hay wagons we'd stay within 10 miles of our house most of the time. When we'd sell livestock (at times it was a once a week event for us), we'd often drive 180 miles round trip. We'd often stick around and have lunch at the cafe, or see our livestock sell. It wouldn't have been a big deal to leave with a full charge, plug in for an hour at the sale barn, and an hour plugged into a DC fast charger will do a lot for your battery. My in-laws think nothing of, a few times a week, driving 140 miles round trip to take the boat on the lake, and they'll stay out there for hours. I think that Ford Lightning could even work for them if they could charge while they fish.

It isn't hard for me to imagine that there are people living in rural areas who can comfortably use EV trucks as work trucks. It isn't hard for me to imagine that, with a little improvement to our power infrastructure, a lot more people living out of town could comfortably drive EVs trucks.

To flatly say "no, EVs are only good for people living in town" doesn't consider the variety of people who live on farms and acreages out of town, and it doesn't consider the variety of purposes they serve.

Now it sounds like you might live in a part of the world with a low population density, where people are spread out pretty far. And you might spend most of your work days driving a truck. It sounds like you put a few hundred miles on each day. I can see why someone in that kind of position wouldn't be ready to make the leap to an electric truck, but the trucks are getting better. There are fewer and fewer truck drivers whose situations are incompatible with current gen, and on the not-to-distant horizon, EV trucks.

 

[trboyden]

I personally don't think EVs are ready for prime time yet, but I am not opposed to owning one either. The full electric jeep at Moab in May was really cool for example. A lot of people quote range as being an issue - yet neglect to mention most gas cars don't get a whole lot more than 300 - 400 miles to a fill. I have a F350 diesel, gets decent mileage for a truck, but it's range is 300 miles. Sometimes finding diesel isn't the easiest either. A lot of gas stations these days are being built unleaded gas only.

No, the two biggest issues with EVs are battery technology and the power grid. Scientists have recently reported they can only get around 10% more energy density out of existing battery technologies. A tank of gas is 500% more energy dense than a lead-acid battery. Lithium-based batteries are 10% less energy dense than lead-acid batteries. Lithium batteries are better because they don't lose capacity as they discharge, unlike lead-acid batteries. So, short of a battery technology revolution, increased range/capacity isn't on the horizon. That is why the recent industry focus is on charging station technology.

As for the power grid problem, you have two main issues. Most house-holds have two cars. Each car requires an 80 AMP outlet for fast charging. Most houses only have 200 AMP service. Most houses can't be increased to a higher amperage service. So, how are you going to charge all those cars? That's issue one. Issue two, as soon as most people have EVs, what do you think is going to happen to electric costs? California already has rolling black-outs because they don't have enough power. We aren't commissioning any more nuclear plants currently. That means supply will be at a premium and electric companies will have to raise rates for everyone to fund new supply sources. Except the current powers that be won't allow energy expansion, so there is no more to come by. Most power generation is still based on fossil fuels. Wind and solar won't produce the volume of energy needed to keep up with the demand from EV use expansion.

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO, if you want to go with an electric vehicle, go right ahead. I'm planning to keep my gas powered truck (or one like it) for as long as possible.

For those thinking that electric vehicles are "so much greener" than traditional ones... Have you seen how they mine for the lithium that goes into the batteries?? What about disposing of the batteries once they're EOL?

Of course, I'm also not planning to get a vehicle that can drive itself. With hackers being hackers, there's no way in hell I'll let a vehicle drive itself. Especially when there's already been demonstrations of autonomous vehicles getting hacked and taken over. If it's a "standard feature" that cannot be removed before purchase (or at build) then I'll be looking for a way to disable it and NOT have to do that with every use.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Battery swaps are a pipe dream IMHO. Will never happen.

Too many technical challenges. Not enough "convenience" payoff to be worth it.

 

[Kent88]

I personally don't think EVs are ready for prime time yet, but I am not opposed to owning one either. The full electric jeep at Moab in May was really cool for example. A lot of people quote range as being an issue - yet neglect to mention most gas cars don't get a whole lot more than 300 - 400 miles to a fill. I have a F350 diesel, gets decent mileage for a truck, but it's range is 300 miles. Sometimes finding diesel isn't the easiest either. A lot of gas stations these days are being built unleaded gas only.

No, the two biggest issues with EVs are battery technology and the power grid. Scientists have recently reported they can only get around 10% more energy density out of existing battery technologies. A tank of gas is 500% more energy dense than a lead-acid battery. Lithium-based batteries are 10% less energy dense than lead-acid batteries. Lithium batteries are better because they don't lose capacity as they discharge, unlike lead-acid batteries. So, short of a battery technology revolution, increased range/capacity isn't on the horizon. That is why the recent industry focus is on charging station technology.

As for the power grid problem, you have two main issues. Most house-holds have two cars. Each car requires an 80 AMP outlet for fast charging. Most houses only have 200 AMP service. Most houses can't be increased to a higher amperage service. So, how are you going to charge all those cars? That's issue one. Issue two, as soon as most people have EVs, what do you think is going to happen to electric costs? California already has rolling black-outs because they don't have enough power. We aren't commissioning any more nuclear plants currently. That means supply will be at a premium and electric companies will have to raise rates for everyone to fund new supply sources. Except the current powers that be won't allow energy expansion, so there is no more to come by. Most power generation is still based on fossil fuels. Wind and solar won't produce the volume of energy needed to keep up with the demand from EV use expansion.

Yeah, I'm pretty excited for the electric jeeps.

I've heard a lot of conflicting information on where batteries are going. Scientists are looking for alternatives to Lithium batteries. I don't think that many cars/trucks/SUVs need a lot better (subjective, I know) than what we're seeing on the horizon. As you said, EVs range isn't really as big of an issue anymore. What would be really helpful is faster charging times. I have a friend who loves the idea of recharging stations that use capacitors, because they can discharge into a battery so quickly. I have no idea if that would work, but it's just another idea out there that is probably being explored as a way to reduce downtime for EVs on the road.

Now, you said 80amp per vehicle, but I think a lot of vehicles are still on 40amp. 40amp does pretty well when you figure that a lot of people plug in overnight. 40amp at home, plus super-fast charging stations we're hoping to see this decade, that's a pretty good combination.

The statement that most homes can't have their service upgraded from 200amp is an interesting statement. I think it would be more accurate to say that it would be expensive to do so in the current environment. It would probably help, too, if people took a look at their homes and looked at how they can save energy. Proper insulation, replacing old appliances, etc, etc, could help reduce the need for a massive upgrade.

What's happening in California doesn't have to happen everywhere. What they're doing is massive, and not something we've seen in a lot of places. There will be a lot of lessons learned, and the next places to try it out should go a lot smoother.

 

[Kent88]

IMO, if you want to go with an electric vehicle, go right ahead. I'm planning to keep my gas powered truck (or one like it) for as long as possible.

For those thinking that electric vehicles are "so much greener" than traditional ones... Have you seen how they mine for the lithium that goes into the batteries?? What about disposing of the batteries once they're EOL?

Of course, I'm also not planning to get a vehicle that can drive itself. With hackers being hackers, there's no way in hell I'll let a vehicle drive itself. Especially when there's already been demonstrations of autonomous vehicles getting hacked and taken over. If it's a "standard feature" that cannot be removed before purchase (or at build) then I'll be looking for a way to disable it and NOT have to do that with every use.

Until I can get in my car, start it, tell it my destination, and fall asleep until I get there, self driving features aren't something that interest me. And yeah, we're going to have to deal with security.

Earlier in this thread we discussed battery recycling. Batteries that aren't road worthy can probably be repurposed until they degrade so far that they'll need to be recycled.

As for lithium mines, I'm not sure if you're referencing some memes going around the internet. There is actually some promising tech coming that you might be interested in:
Scientists have cost-effectively harvested lithium from seawater - Electrek

Now, the obvious "whatabout" here is have you ever seen an oil spill?

 

[trboyden]

Yeah, I'm pretty excited for the electric jeeps.

I've heard a lot of conflicting information on where batteries are going. Scientists are looking for alternatives to Lithium batteries. I don't think that many cars/trucks/SUVs need a lot better (subjective, I know) than what we're seeing on the horizon. As you said, EVs range isn't really as big of an issue anymore. What would be really helpful is faster charging times. I have a friend who loves the idea of recharging stations that use capacitors, because they can discharge into a battery so quickly. I have no idea if that would work, but it's just another idea out there that is probably being explored as a way to reduce downtime for EVs on the road.

Now, you said 80amp per vehicle, but I think a lot of vehicles are still on 40amp. 40amp does pretty well when you figure that a lot of people plug in overnight. 40amp at home, plus super-fast charging stations we're hoping to see this decade, that's a pretty good combination.

The statement that most homes can't have their service upgraded from 200amp is an interesting statement. I think it would be more accurate to say that it would be expensive to do so in the current environment. It would probably help, too, if people took a look at their homes and looked at how they can save energy. Proper insulation, replacing old appliances, etc, etc, could help reduce the need for a massive upgrade.

What's happening in California doesn't have to happen everywhere. What they're doing is massive, and not something we've seen in a lot of places. There will be a lot of lessons learned, and the next places to try it out should go a lot smoother.

40 AMPs for smaller EV vehicles. Check out the charger specs for larger EVs like trucks and SUVs (Ford F150 and Bronco) that most people are going to want to drive. Bigger vehicle = bigger battery pack = larger charger required. 80 AMPs per car will be the norm.

The home amperage issue isn't that the home's electric panel couldn't be expanded, it is that the street feed doesn't have the capacity to provide the additional amperage to the house. Expensive, you bet. Replacing the entire electric grid to increase the capacity to what is needed, is going to be very expensive. It's hard enough to get electric companies to replace a damaged pole unless it comes all the way down. Try getting them to rip out all the poles and put in new ones with larger gauge wires. Copper is pretty expensive these days. Or more expensive, new infrastructure underground. The cities and towns won't want to re-pave all their roads either. They all know this has been coming since the 70s and still haven't made any effort to upgrade the grid. So it is not likely they will be in any hurry to fix it now either. You won't find it in the sales literature either that you are out of luck if it turns out your house and the local grid can't support the new fancy electric car you bought. It isn't a qualifying issue to return the car.

 

[Kent88]

the new fancy electric car you bought.

lol, I bought used, and I wouldn't call it fancy.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

What would be really helpful is faster charging times. I have a friend who loves the idea of recharging stations that use capacitors, because they can discharge into a battery so quickly. I have no idea if that would work, but it's just another idea out there that is probably being explored as a way to reduce downtime for EVs on the road.

I'm guessing your friend is not an electrical engineer. I, on the other hand, am an electrical engineer.

Capacitors don't help. The issue with charging speed is more due to the maximum speed at which the battery can safely ACCEPT charge, not how quickly the station can deliver it--at least once you get to the battery max.

Imagine you're trying to fill something with water and it can take a maximum of 10 gallons per minute. You have several options:

• Your brewing RO system. In my case, it maxes out at about 0.1 gpm.
• Your kitchen faucet. Federal mandate is a max of 2.2 gpm.
• A typical garden hose. At normal pressures, that garden hose will have around a 12-13 gpm flow rate according to the googles.
• A fire hydrant. 1000-1500 gpm.

A 120V 15A outlet is basically the equivalent of the RO system. A 240V 30A outlet for your electric dryer is like the kitchen faucet. A Tesla Supercharger or equivalent is the garden hose.

For most homes, the kitchen faucet is plenty since it charges overnight. For road trips where you need fast charging, the garden hose is a much better option.

In this case the fire hydrant [equivalent of capacitor for discharge rate] is overkill for the application. There's just no way the battery can take the charge anywhere close to as quickly as the capacitors can discharge, so it's the battery pack that is the bottleneck.

That's not taking into account the physical size of capacitors that would be necessary (ginormous banks of capacitors), etc. Logistically it would be insane, because capacitors can't store charge as efficiently as measured by space as a battery, so the total volume of capacitors would be many multiples that of the batteries they're supposed to discharge into.

40 AMPs for smaller EV vehicles. Check out the charger specs for larger EVs like trucks and SUVs (Ford F150 and Bronco) that most people are going to want to drive. Bigger vehicle = bigger battery pack = larger charger required. 80 AMPs per car will be the norm.

A larger charger isn't required UNLESS it is necessary to charge the battery at its maximum charge rate. For most home users, that isn't the case. They drive around all day running errands and use 30% of their battery, come home, plug their car in, and all they want to know is that it's charged by the following morning.

Per here, a 240V 30A charging port will get your roughly 25 miles per hour of charge time. You get home at 8 PM and need your car at 8 AM the next morning? Well in those 12 hours, you can gain close to 300 miles of range.

When you're on a road trip and you want your stop to be as short as possible, then YES higher current charge capability is hugely important. At home? Not so much.

 

[Kent88]

I'm guessing your friend is not an electrical engineer. I, on the other hand, am an electrical engineer.

Capacitors don't help. The issue with charging speed is more due to the maximum speed at which the battery can safely ACCEPT charge, not how quickly the station can deliver it--at least once you get to the battery max.

Imagine you're trying to fill something with water and it can take a maximum of 10 gallons per minute. You have several options:

• Your brewing RO system. In my case, it maxes out at about 0.1 gpm.
• Your kitchen faucet. Federal mandate is a max of 2.2 gpm.
• A typical garden hose. At normal pressures, that garden hose will have around a 12-13 gpm flow rate according to the googles.
• A fire hydrant. 1000-1500 gpm.

A 120V 15A outlet is basically the equivalent of the RO system. A 240V 30A outlet for your electric dryer is like the kitchen faucet. A Tesla Supercharger or equivalent is the garden hose.

For most homes, the kitchen faucet is plenty since it charges overnight. For road trips where you need fast charging, the garden hose is a much better option.

In this case the fire hydrant [equivalent of capacitor for discharge rate] is overkill for the application. There's just no way the battery can take the charge anywhere close to as quickly as the capacitors can discharge, so it's the battery pack that is the bottleneck.

That's not taking into account the physical size of capacitors that would be necessary (ginormous banks of capacitors), etc. Logistically it would be insane, because capacitors can't store charge as efficiently as measured by space as a battery, so the total volume of capacitors would be many multiples that of the batteries they're supposed to discharge into.

Neither one of us (my friend and I) are electrical engineers. You are absolutely correct.

If he ever brings this up again, I'll be able to contribute more to the conversation now.

 

[trboyden]

I'm guessing your friend is not an electrical engineer. I, on the other hand, am an electrical engineer.

Capacitors don't help. The issue with charging speed is more due to the maximum speed at which the battery can safely ACCEPT charge, not how quickly the station can deliver it--at least once you get to the battery max.

Imagine you're trying to fill something with water and it can take a maximum of 10 gallons per minute. You have several options:

• Your brewing RO system. In my case, it maxes out at about 0.1 gpm.
• Your kitchen faucet. Federal mandate is a max of 2.2 gpm.
• A typical garden hose. At normal pressures, that garden hose will have around a 12-13 gpm flow rate according to the googles.
• A fire hydrant. 1000-1500 gpm.

A 120V 15A outlet is basically the equivalent of the RO system. A 240V 30A outlet for your electric dryer is like the kitchen faucet. A Tesla Supercharger or equivalent is the garden hose.

For most homes, the kitchen faucet is plenty since it charges overnight. For road trips where you need fast charging, the garden hose is a much better option.

In this case the fire hydrant [equivalent of capacitor for discharge rate] is overkill for the application. There's just no way the battery can take the charge anywhere close to as quickly as the capacitors can discharge, so it's the battery pack that is the bottleneck.

That's not taking into account the physical size of capacitors that would be necessary (ginormous banks of capacitors), etc. Logistically it would be insane, because capacitors can't store charge as efficiently as measured by space as a battery, so the total volume of capacitors would be many multiples that of the batteries they're supposed to discharge into.



A larger charger isn't required UNLESS it is necessary to charge the battery at its maximum charge rate. For most home users, that isn't the case. They drive around all day running errands and use 30% of their battery, come home, plug their car in, and all they want to know is that it's charged by the following morning.

Per here, a 240V 30A charging port will get your roughly 25 miles per hour of charge time. You get home at 8 PM and need your car at 8 AM the next morning? Well in those 12 hours, you can gain close to 300 miles of range.

When you're on a road trip and you want your stop to be as short as possible, then YES higher current charge capability is hugely important. At home? Not so much.

And as an electrical engineer, you are aware we don't design to minimums, we design to maximums with a buffer. You "can" use a 60 watt power adapter to charge a laptop that normally takes a 90 watt adapter, but it is not recommended because 1) it will be slower and 2) the 60 watt adapter will generate a lot more heat because it is under a greater strain. Appliances that generate excess heat that can lead to failure and potentially fires, is generally frowned upon in building codes.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

And as an electrical engineer, you are aware we don't design to minimums, we design to maximums with a buffer. You "can" use a 60 watt power adapter to charge a laptop that normally takes a 90 watt adapter, but it is not recommended because 1) it will be slower and 2) the 60 watt adapter will generate a lot more heat because it is under a greater strain. Appliances that generate excess heat that can lead to failure and potentially fires, is generally frowned upon in building codes.

And that's the reason you don't just hook a cable up to your dryer outlet, you buy a charger that limits the output. That's a recipe for blown breakers and all sorts of bad things.

Per here (How to Choose a Home EV Charger | ChargePoint) it states that the National Electric Code requires 25% margin between the capacity of the circuit and the output of the charger.

The point you bring up is only important when both the supply circuit and the demand circuit are unregulated. If you have a 1000W load and a 500W supply with no intelligence, the 500W supply is going to be running at or over capacity to try to supply the load. But that's not the situation here.

A 24A charger on a 30A circuit is completely safe, because the charger itself limits the amount of current that will make it through to the battery. A battery with a charge capacity of 80A won't take any more than the 24A the charger gives it, because the charger is smart enough to stop that. So if you have a 30A service, you limit your charger to 24A. That reduces your charge rate from the maximum possible, but you don't have any safety concerns doing so.

And it's perfectly acceptable for home charging situations where you don't need to charge your battery from 10-80% in 30-45 minutes, because you can let it charge overnight.

 

[trboyden]

Per here, a 240V 30A charging port will get your roughly 25 miles per hour of charge time. You get home at 8 PM and need your car at 8 AM the next morning? Well in those 12 hours, you can gain close to 300 miles of range.

You are missing a critical part in that calculation, the kWh of the battery pack. A 1kW charger can deliver 1 kWh of charge per hour. The standard Tesla charger can deliver 6.6kW of charge in an hour on a 220v 30A circuit. A Tesla has a 100kWh battery pack. Typically, you can only use 80% of a battery pack, so that is really 80kWh. So, that would be roughly 12 hours to fully charge that pack, or 4.5 hours for 30% charge. Though a partial recharge can take a little longer due to balancing logic being applied to evenly charge the pack.

Larger vehicles require larger packs for equivalent range. The Ford 150 Lightning has a 150kWh battery pack. At 80% capacity (120kWh) with the same 6.6kW charger, it would take over 18 hours to charge the pack. So, you need a larger charger, which requires more amps to bring down the charging time. In fact, the Ford F150 Lightning uses a dual on-board charger rated at 19.2Kw. That is a J-1772 charger, same as the Porsche Taycan, that requires a 100A circuit, 80A usable.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

You are missing a critical part in that calculation, the kWh of the battery pack. A 1kW charger can deliver 1 kWh of charge per hour. The standard Tesla charger can deliver 6.6kW of charge in an hour on a 220v 30A circuit. A Tesla has a 100kWh battery pack. Typically, you can only use 80% of a battery pack, so that is really 80kWh. So, that would be roughly 12 hours to fully charge that pack, or 4.5 hours for 30% charge. Though a partial recharge can take a little longer due to balancing logic being applied to evenly charge the pack.

Larger vehicles require larger packs for equivalent range. The Ford 150 Lightning has a 150kWh battery pack. At 80% capacity (120kWh) with the same 6.6kW charger, it would take over 18 hours to charge the pack. So, you need a larger charger, which requires more amps to bring down the charging time. In fact, the Ford F150 Lightning uses a dual on-board charger rated at 19.2Kw. That is a J-1772 charger, same as the Porsche Taycan, that requires a 100A circuit, 80A usable.

A lot of what you say is correct here. I'd also say that I don't really trust Tesla's numbers. I think other vendors are being MUCH more conservative with how much charge they'll allow into their battery packs, so the reason they need bigger packs for equivalent range is that they're not pushing the packs to their absolute limit... Tesla fanbois will say it's because they're just so much smarter than everyone else, but I don't believe that. Per your point, other manufacturers I think are building in more margin.

But beyond that, I'd say that it's a distinction without a difference... You're talking about a full charge. My contention is that anyone who is fully depleting their EV battery in a typical day of driving isn't a good target EV customer.

If you're looking at an EV with 300 mile range, and your typical daily drive is 220+ miles, then you shouldn't buy that EV. Full stop. You don't want to typically charge over 80%, so that means your range is really 240, and that means you'll have to charge from <10% to 80% every night. Not only that, you're not giving yourself the margin to not worry about range anxiety. That's just not typical usage.

If you're a more typical driver, where your average daily drive is maybe in the 25-75 mi range, then an EV makes perfect sense. You don't completely discharge the battery in a typical day so you don't need to completely recharge it in a typical night. Now, you may have the occasional day where you expect much more driving--so the night before you let it top up to 100% and then even if you come home at 20% and the next morning it's only at 65% you still have plenty of room for your daily 25-75 drive and by the next morning you should be comfortably back up to 80%.

Where you're completely wrong is the idea that a battery pack capable of accepting a 100A or 80A charge requires it. It's just not true.

EVs do certainly force you to evaluate your typical driving patterns to make sure that the vehicle you're buying--and the charging capability you have--match up. But they don't require you to completely rewire your house unless you're the wrong consumer for EV to begin with.

 

[trboyden]

Where you're completely wrong is the idea that a battery pack capable of accepting a 100A or 80A charge requires it. It's just not true.

They do require it, if you want to charge it in a reasonable amount of time, such as overnight. You also completely ignore the fact that weather and driving habits affect range in a major way. You might get 220 range driving on a highway at 55 MPH. You certainly are not getting 220 miles of range driving 80+. Heavy city driving also decreases range from all the start/stops and subsequent acceleration. You are referring to how Mr. Hair-bun drives a car. I am referring to how the average American family or business user drives a car, which is the majority of the population. All those after-school activities for the kids, grocery store trips, going out to eat, etc... add up in addition to the daily commute.

The math is the math.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Wow... That RMI link was not for dummies, but by dummies. I can fisk the crap out of it if you'd like, but that has to wait until tomorrow to find the time.

But again you're missing the point. If you're constantly measuring empty-to-full charge times based on less-than-maximum amperage, OF COURSE the bigger pack will take longer than a smaller pack. I'm not arguing otherwise.

But I've already conceded that someone who depletes their entire battery pack every day isn't a good EV consumer.

The average consumer doesn't drive 200 mi/day. It's much lower: Daily miles of travel per driver in the United States 2017 | Statista

So let's not argue corner cases, because I've already agreed that corner cases aren't good EV consumers.

 

[Kent88]

They do require it, if you want to charge it in a reasonable amount of time, such as overnight. You also completely ignore the fact that weather and driving habits affect range in a major way. You might get 220 range driving on a highway at 55 MPH. You certainly are not getting 220 miles of range driving 80+. Heavy city driving also decreases range from all the start/stops and subsequent acceleration.

ICE vehicles vary a lot with how efficient they are. When my spouse drives our jeep to work from mid November until late March or early April, she usually gets around 23mpg. When I drive it in the summer, I often keep it above 28mpg.

A nifty feature of our Volt (and most EVs, from what I understand) is that they have a display that tells you why you're getting poor or good efficiency.