I hope this thread doesn’t get too off track. The info and experiences from ev owners is helpful to me and I’m sure others.
Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?
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I dunno why the subject of alternative energy is controversial at all. You'd never see this kind of debate over gasoline vs. diesel, it just doesn't make sense.
I'd jump at the chance to own an EV. I'm a bit of a technophobe and the opposite of an early adopter, but a colleague of mine bought one last year and says he'll never go back. A former BMW driver, too. One of those "hoonigan"-types, whatever that means. He's even taken up the use of turn signals, it's pure madness.
I'd jump at the chance to own an EV. I'm a bit of a technophobe and the opposite of an early adopter, but a colleague of mine bought one last year and says he'll never go back. A former BMW driver, too. One of those "hoonigan"-types, whatever that means. He's even taken up the use of turn signals, it's pure madness.
Bilsch
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Agreed. Compared to electric vehicles, alternative liquid fuels for surface transport is a waste of time and energy. Electric car owners aren't necessarily hippies, that is mental residue from the last century. Now days most EV owners want to save money and the rest like to show off and go really fast. As for types of power used to make the electricity to fuel the car, it's not really a concern. Even in the unlikely event your car is running on all fossil electrons, you are still using a lot less dead dino per mile then the ICE car next to you.. and paying less money. Whats not to like about that? I have often wondered how much area of the earth would be required for 100% solar power. Here is the answer.
Oldpaddy
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It drives me nuts how all the greenies who moved to my state pushed to get rid of all the power plants. Nuclear was the wave of the future for them when I was growing up and now it's as sinful as coal. Now I'm basically being forced to spend $40k+ to build my own power plant on my roof. It really frosts my titties.
When I was a kid another big worry was about how we were destroying the world by cutting down all the trees. How many thousands of acres of forests are cut down in my state and replaced with solar panels? Paper bags were bad 30 years ago. Now we're back to paper bags. I wish these people were consistent.
madscientist451
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Note that electricity costs will also rise, vehicle operating costs will increase. In theory, electric motors don't wear out at the same rate gasoline engines do, so cars will last longer, but manufacturers will find a way to make the vehicles obsolete long before they quit working.
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well...back on the topic of EV....
what they need to do for me is invent some sorta really big capacitor that charges instantly, so i don't have to wait a entire day to drive 100 miles.....
what they need to do for me is invent some sorta really big capacitor that charges instantly, so i don't have to wait a entire day to drive 100 miles.....
Oldpaddy
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I remember in college one professor said if you can make something that breaks right after the warranty runs out you'll be a rich man. He was absolutely right.
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dwhite60
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The batteries are an ecological disaster waiting to happen. Replacing them is not cheap.
My son found some great deals on Honda Civic hybrids that were five years old. Told him to research the batteries. Weren't such a good deal then.
My son found some great deals on Honda Civic hybrids that were five years old. Told him to research the batteries. Weren't such a good deal then.
Oldpaddy
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That is absolutely true. That goes for a lot of material used in electronics as well.
dwhite60
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I have read the heavy metal load from making solar panels is a big problem too.
Oldpaddy
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You know, we shouldn't talk like this. It might take away the warm fuzzies the eco conscious people get for doing all the solar and green electronic stuff. Most probably don't realize our landfills are filled with that stuff. Chemicals and bad minerals leaching into the ground from it or that mountains are demolished mining the materials needed for a lot of batteries and stuff. Plus the slave labor used to do the dirty work in third world countries...
I don't own an EV, but if the pricing is right, I could see this bad boy in my driveway.
Tank turns for the win!
Until then, I'll just keep driving my Jeep.
Tank turns for the win!
Until then, I'll just keep driving my Jeep.
Think I'd consider an ev truck. Can't stomach the pricing currently...will wait til it's not a novelty, although I think by that point regulation will basically have made fossil fuel vehicles inaccessible price wise...
guess my next vehicle is a bicycle...
guess my next vehicle is a bicycle...
all new trucks are stomach turners.Think I'd consider an ev truck. Can't stomach the pricing currently...will wait til it's not a novelty, although I think by that point regulation will basically have made fossil fuel vehicles inaccessible price wise...
guess my next vehicle is a bicycle...
I was poking around the ford website to price a new diesel F150. I got to around 59k when I decided to close that browsing tab. I’ll wait a few years or a decade and buy a used one.
Oldpaddy
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It's crazy how expensive trucks are getting. I basically have a f150 with a suv body and the prices are nuts. I paid $30k in '18 for a used '14 expy limited. I'd rather have kept my '01 expy, but the frame was rotted pretty bad. I think a new expy limited is like $70k+
Jesus H. on Toast, how many posts does another moderator have to delete before you stop posting political posts here? The next political post earns the poster a vacation from HBT. Not joking.
It seems like you shouldn't have to say this, but telling moderators to go **** themselves is unwise if you enjoy posting here LOL. People continue to amaze, everyday . . . .
If folks want to get back on topic . . . .
The limiting factor for us in purchasing an electric car is that we live in a multi-unit building in Chicago and our parking area has no charging. I'm not aware of any quick charging public options.
The limiting factor for us in purchasing an electric car is that we live in a multi-unit building in Chicago and our parking area has no charging. I'm not aware of any quick charging public options.
RePete
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Yeah, that would be a problem. I have known someone with a Volt at an apartment who ran an extension cord out the window. Which even then would be a hassle for nightly charging. In my situation, I pull into my garage every night, and the charger is right there. Being a creature of habit, I just plug in and don't even have to think about it. My daughter and her husband both have Volt's, and they don't have an outside outlet at their house. So they run an extension cord.
In my case, I use a standard 110v outlet, and it takes all night. We have another vehicle I can use for any extra trips. I basically use my Volt for work during the day, and home and park it, so I can just leave it charge.
There are apps for locating chargers. Maybe there is one in your area.
Bilsch
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Only thin film solar cells have any heavy metals and these are not what you find in residential rooftop solar. Silicon solar cells, the most used one, do not contain any toxics and even if they did it would be locked up in the silicon, essentially glass, something that will never break down.
kestrelbrewing
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We have a BMW i3 with the "range extender". My wife uses it to commute the 40 miles round trip for work. It has a pure battery range of about 75 miles and then it has a 2 gallon gas tank that powers a small generator. Since we got a solar system, and my wife is working form home because her office is still all remote, I have found myself driving her car more often since it is "free". I actually enjoy driving the little thing because it has amazing pickup. Nothing like sitting at a red light and having some juvenile pull up in his tricked out civic and start revving his engine and then flat out smoking him off the line in something that looks like a toy.
Our other (my) vehicle is an FJ cruiser which is good for hauling stuff and camping trips. For us, that's a good balance.
Our other (my) vehicle is an FJ cruiser which is good for hauling stuff and camping trips. For us, that's a good balance.
Bilsch
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There are at least 5 Tesla superchargers in the Chicago area and a bunch more destination chargers.
They need to uniform the charging plugs and place stations where people can get access to them ,not just in capital city car park..
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Electric not for the foreseeable future because of the range issue. It wasn't an option 2 years ago when we bought my wife's Escape but if we were buying a new one today, we'd probably buy the plug-in hybrid which should could charge for "free" at her office about 20 miles away.
If we were doing it again we'd probably also go to only 1 car between my wife and I or maybe an older, inexpensive car for me.
If we were doing it again we'd probably also go to only 1 car between my wife and I or maybe an older, inexpensive car for me.
kestrelbrewing
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Almost all EV manufacturers use the SAE J1772 with the exception of Mitsubishi and Nissan. The SAE J1772 is what every charging station I've ever used has. It accommodates two different types of connections: one for slow speed charging and one for high speed charging. It's very, very simple.
The ICE vs EV conversation reminds me of the propane vs electric brewing argument.
Oddly enough I’m a propane brewer but hopefully will cross the imaginary line and be a EV user. I’m still hanging on to my propane brewing setup though.
Oddly enough I’m a propane brewer but hopefully will cross the imaginary line and be a EV user. I’m still hanging on to my propane brewing setup though.
RePete
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You are talking about level 2 Chargers. Which, on a car like my Volt, might put on 8 miles of range in an hour. It's not really that fast. When I charge overnight on 110V, it takes maybe 12 hours to get 60 miles of range. I think that Tesla's can use them, but need an adapter.
For fast charging you either need a Tesla, or something like a Bolt. Not all Bolts come with the DC Fast Charger upgrade. But it's an option if you want to pay for it.
A friend of mine bought a Bolt in Chicago last year. It was cold out, so he ran the heater which ran down the battery. Much to his chagrin, he found out that there were no DC Fast Chargers between Chicago and Indianapolis. Even at Chevy dealers. There were plenty of level 2 Chargers. He called in a panic. What do I do? I to him to get a hotel , grab a beer, and let it charge overnight. Which is what he did.
Here are a few items from a guy who just retired from teaching in the Sustainability/Renewable Energy area.
1. Electric isn't truly "green" unless two things happen: first, the power that charges it comes from a green source, not coal fired, not nat gas, and second, that the power and resources used to make the car are green (same issue).
2. It takes energy to make an energy-efficient vehicle. There's a term for it, called "embodied energy." If you replace an ICE car with an electric, you may be greener, but only after you make up for all the energy it took to make the vehicle.
3. The problem of how long until charge is called "Range Anxiety." It's much better. With ranges exceeding 300 miles today, most electric cars pass the "everyday use" test. What they aren't as good for is extended trips.
4. Many have, and others will, have a multiple-vehicle family with an electric vehicle for everyday things, and an ICE car for longer trips. About the longest trip I make is maybe 300 miles round-trip, which is in the range of many electric cars.
5. As ranges of EVs have increased, "range anxiety" is being supplanted by "charge anxiety." If one doesn't have a convenient access to charging while on the road, and charging that is relatively fast, then it's also an issue.
And here's the biggest issue of all, IMO:
As a class assignment, I had my students figure out the gasoline-price break-even point, i.e., how high would gas prices have to rise for the monthly cost to break even.
You have to make some assumptions to do this. I told them 12000 miles annually, the price of the EV (Chevy Bolt at the time) was about $35k, the price of a comparable ICE car similar to a Ford Focus was $20,000. We assumed a 6-year loan with something like $3k down on each.
I figured something like an average of 30mpg on the Focus (I own one, that's why I used it), and factored in the electricity charging costs of the EV. I added a couple oil changes a year for the Focus. My insurance agent insisted the annual costs to insure both where the same, but I don't really believe that. A totaled $35k car should cost more to insure than a $20k car, but we used equal insurance anyway.
Guess how high gas prices would have to rise for the montly cost to break even? You will not believe it.
$9.32 per gallon.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
Now, you cannot do these kinds of problems without making some assumptions; you can fill in your own as you like. But the numbers we used were not outlandish, and making some changes here or there wouldn't change the results all that much.
In the end, would I buy one? Yeah. Maybe. Possibly. If the price comes down.
1. Electric isn't truly "green" unless two things happen: first, the power that charges it comes from a green source, not coal fired, not nat gas, and second, that the power and resources used to make the car are green (same issue).
2. It takes energy to make an energy-efficient vehicle. There's a term for it, called "embodied energy." If you replace an ICE car with an electric, you may be greener, but only after you make up for all the energy it took to make the vehicle.
3. The problem of how long until charge is called "Range Anxiety." It's much better. With ranges exceeding 300 miles today, most electric cars pass the "everyday use" test. What they aren't as good for is extended trips.
4. Many have, and others will, have a multiple-vehicle family with an electric vehicle for everyday things, and an ICE car for longer trips. About the longest trip I make is maybe 300 miles round-trip, which is in the range of many electric cars.
5. As ranges of EVs have increased, "range anxiety" is being supplanted by "charge anxiety." If one doesn't have a convenient access to charging while on the road, and charging that is relatively fast, then it's also an issue.
And here's the biggest issue of all, IMO:
As a class assignment, I had my students figure out the gasoline-price break-even point, i.e., how high would gas prices have to rise for the monthly cost to break even.
You have to make some assumptions to do this. I told them 12000 miles annually, the price of the EV (Chevy Bolt at the time) was about $35k, the price of a comparable ICE car similar to a Ford Focus was $20,000. We assumed a 6-year loan with something like $3k down on each.
I figured something like an average of 30mpg on the Focus (I own one, that's why I used it), and factored in the electricity charging costs of the EV. I added a couple oil changes a year for the Focus. My insurance agent insisted the annual costs to insure both where the same, but I don't really believe that. A totaled $35k car should cost more to insure than a $20k car, but we used equal insurance anyway.
Guess how high gas prices would have to rise for the montly cost to break even? You will not believe it.
$9.32 per gallon.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
Now, you cannot do these kinds of problems without making some assumptions; you can fill in your own as you like. But the numbers we used were not outlandish, and making some changes here or there wouldn't change the results all that much.
In the end, would I buy one? Yeah. Maybe. Possibly. If the price comes down.
RePete
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There are no free lunches. And if you drive, you're not being green, really. If you want to be green, you really need to walk or ride a bike. But many of us do need to drive to make a living.
As far as costs, I don't know if electric cars are discounted more or what. But I found deals on both of my Volts for around $10k off of sticker price. And then there was the $7500 tax credit. Counting both of those, I paid about the same as you did for your $20k car.
kestrelbrewing
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Our i3 also takes overnight to go from 0-65 on 110v. But the charger at the supermarket gets us there in about 20 minutes.
Huh, this conversation is making me look around now. I was just at the Walgreens near us (Roosevelt and Canal for Chicago-ites) and they have two charging stations in their parking lot.
Great write up Mongoose33, very informative. I also appreciate you pointing out the assumptions.
First this thread paralleled the propane vs electric brewer, now it's mirroring the "is it cheaper to homebrew" argument.
As far as assumptions, the 35k ev vs 20k car; I'd be willing to bet that someone in the position to buy a 50k Tesla 3 would probably not settle for a 25k Camry as a daily drive.
The other assumption is that I'm sure there are those out there that just enjoy newer technology, whether it pencils out or not. As said before, I own 2 ICE cars, but would love to go ev in a few years as technology improves and prices decrease. I'll probably still keep my 4x4 tow vehicle but see absolutely no reason to commute with that gas hog.
Others may enjoy harvesting their own energy and not being reliant on what happens geopolitically in Saudi Arabia or wherever. Others may enjoy the quietness or the quickness of instant torque.
There are vehicles out there that cost a lot of money and are horribly reliable and expensive to fix and don't hold their resale value. Yet people still buy them over boring Corollas or Camrys because of ride quality or status (I'm looking at you German cars).
This isn't comparable but related. Slowly I've been replacing my lawn equipment over to electric and the difference is night and day. Although I haven't made the plunge and bought an electric lawnmower (I have a 5 year old Honda that refuses to die), I can weed wack and blow off yard debris with rechargeable machines early in morning or in evening without annoying neighbors.
I did the same calcs years ago when the Volt first came out. Even after the $7500 discount was used--and how you factor that in is an issue--back then the insurance on the Volt was a lot higher. The calcs at that time showed gas would have to rise to $13/gallon. I'm not kidding. It's why nobody was buying Volts unless they wanted to make a statement.
It's also why you got a discount on yours and why GM stopped making them. It wasn't a bad deal to do what you did, not at all. I always said I'd buy a Volt if the price was comparable. If I'd have found one at the same price as my Focus, I'd have been all over it.
[BTW, a little interesting history behind the Volt: GM's engineers and others researched driving habits, found that something like 70 percent of all drivers didn't drive 40 miles in a day. So they made a hybrid electric vehicle that would go 40 miles on battery; after that distance, an ICE would produce electricity to recharge the battery and run the car. I know you know this, BTW. The interesting thing for me was that A) they produced a car that matched the driving habits of the majority of drivers, and B) eliminated range anxiety. It still is one of the smartest things I've ever seen an automaker do. If only they could have gotten the price down.....]
The tax rebate was interesting. It offset taxes, wasn't a "rebate," so if you didn't pay $7500 or more in taxed, you didn't get the whole thing. Then there was the problem of accounting for that in terms of the loan. Not easy to solve, and depends on the assumptions.
Oh, if it sounded like I was being judgmental, I wasn't. People should make their choices. Sometimes they don't make the best ones. I've been there.
But sometimes--in fact almost always--their choices reflect their values. If you value appearing Green, then buy a green car. It doesn't hurt me. If high horsepower is your thing, then buy such a car (though performance-wise, an electric car seems to outclass almost everything).
You can really go down a rabbit hole with this. I see people buying $50,000 trucks and can't figure out why. I used to have one, realized I almost never needed its "truckiness," sold it and reduced my montly transportation costs by a ton. My BIL has a truck, if I need one I borrow his. And Menards rents pickups cheap.
Based on MY values, there's not enough value in a truck for me to pay $300/mo more than what I'd pay for a simple vehicle. But if someone else wants to do that, fine. As long as they aren't going to ask me to subsidize their life in some other way so they can spend $300/mo on a truck they never need or use, I'm fine with it.
Heck, how many think I'm stupid for taking flying lessons? How silly is that? But I want to, it's my money, and I like challenges like that. Others might get some sort of psychic or other value from owning an expensive truck.
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I used to own a Chevy S10 4x4 extended cab. I sure miss that truck.
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You hit on something else--what people can afford and why. Status symbols and all that. My standards today are different than when I was fresh out of school. Back then, I mowed my own lawn. Today, I pay a neighbor kid to do it. Well, I have an excuse--a bad back that hurts when I mow--but I *could* do it. I choose not to, spending my money that way. Others mow their own lawn and devote the money they save to something else.
If the Volt was slightly bigger and could accommodate kids seats and accessories, there would be one in my driveway now.
I have a coworker who was commuting in his F150. Not sure how many miles his commute was but he purchased a used Volt. He absolutely loves it. He was spending 300-400$ monthly on gas. Which is approximately his payment on the Volt. He still tows w the truck but him and his wife love the Volt and use it for road trips etc.
He let me drive it around the office when he first bought it. Man that thing had some torque to it. I don't think it gets even close to the power of a Tesla, but still a blast to drive.
I have to add this: I switched to electric brewing, oh, a year or two ago. I had a 60-amp main-panel breaker feed a sub panel in my garage.
While the near-term reason for doing this was to provide a 30-amp 240-v power source for electric brewing, there was a secondary reason:
Charging an electric car.
I'm nowhere near buying one, and only when it makes financial sense will I do this, but one of the hidden costs--or maybe not so hidden--of owning an electric car is providing for charging facilities.
If and when.....I have power to the garage to accommodate a charging station.
While the near-term reason for doing this was to provide a 30-amp 240-v power source for electric brewing, there was a secondary reason:
Charging an electric car.
I'm nowhere near buying one, and only when it makes financial sense will I do this, but one of the hidden costs--or maybe not so hidden--of owning an electric car is providing for charging facilities.
If and when.....I have power to the garage to accommodate a charging station.
Bilsch
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I must respectfully disagree with your assumptions and findings.
1) The grid isn't either all green or all fossil fuel but instead a mix. Currently the US is powered by:
62.7% fossil fuels, 19.7% nuclear and 17.5% renewable energy. Even if an EV only achieved comparable mileage to an ICE, right out of the gate you would be producing 37.2% less carbon than a gas or diesel vehicle. Now add the fact that EV's are, at the minimum, 2 times more efficient at turning an equivalent amount of mined energy into road miles you can quickly see that electric cars are much more environmentally friendly then combustion engine powered vehicles, even plugged into the dirtiest of grids.
2) You are using old data to make your point here as these days the amount of energy to make an ICE car is right about on par with EV vehicles. What you fail to factor in is the extra amount of carbon and other noxious gasses that ICE will spew out during it's lifetime that the EV will not which has a huge cost to society. Also consider that with electric the power generation is done out side of cities and is not coming from the tailpipe ahead of you on the road. Did anyone happen to catch the pictures taken recently of major metropolitan areas during the last covid shutdown where you could see the skyline in blue and not orange smog haze? Again even if EV's were only equally efficient to ICE cars, what value is not having to suck on that tail pipe in front of you?
3) I have zero range anxiety. I can go 270 miles in a charge and fill up at 150kw+ and be on my way in about the time it takes to get a coffee and use the restroom. The newer models have much bigger batteries and even faster charging (250kw) making this whole range/charge anxiety a thing of the past.
4) I think your assumptions were based on old technology and you also forgot to factor in maintenance which is a huge chunk of the cost of owning an ICE car. The web is littered with sites comparing ICE costs to EV. Here is is a comprehensive study out of Canada comparing the total costs of ICE and EV for your students to check their work against. By the way the EV's compared in this study are older and not terribly efficient ones either.
https://www.2degreesinstitute.org/r...ectric_and_gas_powered_vehicles_in_canada.pdf
The average 10 year savings from EV ownership is $26,900 Canadian. Not an insignificant amount thats for sure. Add to that the long term costs of damaging the environment, EV's are a no brainer.
And lastly, owning and EV gives you a choice in where your power comes from. Adding solar is the absolute cheapest way to drive with the huge benefit of being positive you are not sending a penny directly or indirectly to the Middle east, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola or any number of places where your petrodollar might find it's way back to hurt you.
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RePete
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See, I'm looking at this in the opposite direction. I'm looking to get 220V run to my garage so I can charge the car faster. With the added bonus of switching to a 220V brewing system.I have to add this: I switched to electric brewing, oh, a year or two ago. I had a 60-amp main-panel breaker feed a sub panel in my garage.
While the near-term reason for doing this was to provide a 30-amp 240-v power source for electric brewing, there was a secondary reason:
Charging an electric car.
I'm nowhere near buying one, and only when it makes financial sense will I do this, but one of the hidden costs--or maybe not so hidden--of owning an electric car is providing for charging facilities.
If and when.....I have power to the garage to accommodate a charging station.
But really, charging on 110V works fine. As long as you're not in a hurry. I usually get home by 6pm or so, plug it in, and have 60 miles of range by 7am the next morning.
The economics of this have changed, for me at least, since the pandemic hit. I'm not doing as much work, so I'm driving less. I'm all electric now, for the most part. The tax credit was a big factor, and that has gone away. So, not sure I would buy one now. But I have it, and it's a great car.
As far as the Volt goes, I feel lucky to have one. But I feel like Chevy really didn't want to sell them. I never saw a single ad on TV. I mean, you wouldn't even have known they made them unless you looked. Dealers didn't push them, because they don't need much maintenance, so they can't make money on service. It's just not a profit center. When I bought my last Volt, it wasn't even charged. They just put gas in it.
Car manufacturers make most of their profits on things like trucks. So that's why you see a dozen truck commercials during halftime of football games
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