Pliny the Elder recipe questions

[paradoc]

Note: I added a post later in this thread with the full recipe, along with the proposed modifications. You can find it here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/pliny-elder-recipe-questions-125517/index8.html#post1537060

Greetings,

The July/Aug '09 issue of Zymurgy has a recipe for Pliny the Elder from Vinnie Cilurzo. Looks great... but when I put the recipe into BeerAlchemy, the OG calculations are WAY off. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. The recipe calls for:

11 lb 2 row
0.5 lb Crystal 45
0.5 lb Carapils
0.4 lb corn sugar

8 gallons wort from mash, 90 minute boil, 6 gallons into fermenter.
OG from recipe: 1.070
FG: 1.011

When I put it into Beer Alchemy, I'm only getting an OG of 1.055. I've checked my efficiency number, and volumes, and all look correct. Can someone plug those numbers into one of the other beer software programs and let me know what you get for OG? I'm sure I've got something wonky in my recipe in BeerAlchemy... but not sure what it is.

Thanks!

 

[steelerguy]

Looks right on as long as you get 92-93% efficiency.

I could just look at that recipe and tell it is not enough grain/sugar. For what it is worth...1.057 with beercalculus.com and 75% efficiency.

 

[uwjester]

I get about the same thing in BeerSmith. I'm going to bump the 2row and corn sugar up when I do this recipe next week. I'm choosing not to bump the crystal because Mike said not to.

 

[midfielder5]

the one i have seen was for 29 # of 2-row
+
DME 8.0 lbs
Corn Sugar 1.0 lbs
Dextrine Malt 2.0 lbs
Crystal 40L 1.0 lbs
Wheat Malt 1.0 lbs
*for a 12 gal recipe.

 

[Yooper]

Here's the one I did: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/pliny-bastid-21229/

I used an even 12 pounds of 2-row and got an OG of 1.073 at 75%. It was my favorite beer, that's for sure!

 

[paradoc]

I'm choosing not to bump the crystal because Mike said not to.

Pardon my ignorance... but who is Mike? Any input on why not to scale the crystal?

I'm thinking about bumping the grain bill up to something like this:
14.5 pounds Maris Otter
0.66 pounds Crystal 40
0.66 pounds Carapils
0.5 pounds corn sugar

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.

 

[Rick500]

I noticed the same thing when I put that recipe from the magazine into Beersmith. Something's amiss...

By the way, I'm an IPA lover, and have wanted to try Pliny the Elder forever (but we can't get it here in KY).
I have had the Pliny clone in the current Sam Adams Longshot pack, and didn't like it at all...it was just ridiculously, sharply bitter, like they put all the hops in at the beginning of the boil and didn't bother with flavor or aroma additions. Is the real thing really like that?

 

[samc]

Is the real thing really like that?

No the real thing is insanely hoppy and works well with bitterness. I wonder just how fresh and handled the Longshot was. I was not able to find any so I never tried it. The early bottles of Pliny I had this year were great, the later batch was somewhat of a letdown on the hoppy scale. I attribute it to age & handling.


I recently brewed this version https://www.homebrewtalk.com/129699-post14.html with some hop substitutions for Warrior (Nuggget) & Columbus (Zeus).

 

[Eastside Brewer]

Pliny is my favorite beer, I'm only 40 minutes from the Brewery, but it is Fresh on tap at 3 locations blocks from my house!

In an attempt to brew it myself, I have brewed 12 batches in a row, slightly changing the hop bill each time. No sense fooling with the grain bill, it's 2-row, c-45(I actually us a combo of c-15 and c-120 in very small amounts), then carapils and of course corn sugar which gives it a nice dryness. I have actually gotten really close by using a different hop bill and hop schedule. Of course I humbly resign myself to the fact that there is only ONE Pliny and Vinnie has that market cornered for me!

McDole's Long Shot beer is no Pliny!

Eastside

 

[uwjester]

Pardon my ignorance... but who is Mike? Any input on why not to scale the crystal?

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.

I'm an idiot. I meant Vinnie, the owner of Russian River, but I got his name mixed up. The reason not to add more crystal is that you don't want to add too much crystal character to the beer. You want a good malt background, but you don't want to take anything away from the hops. At least according to Mike or Tom or Dave or Vinnie.

 

[BrewMeister49]

could the added water be an issue with the OG? most that go into the fermentor are 5-5.5, and extra half gallon can cause a lower OG resulting by lower eff. In my opinion, the higher the eff, the more taste your losing just due to the fact that your using less grains. Personally, anything above 75% is just showing off just my personal opinion. I love the color on pliney! 95-100 IBU's is a bit too much for my mouth though, Im thinking of doing this recipe, but cutting it down to maybe 60, and dry hop the rest.

 

[bdnoona]

Looks right on as long as you get 92-93% efficiency.

I could just look at that recipe and tell it is not enough grain/sugar. For what it is worth...1.057 with beercalculus.com and 75% efficiency.

I thought the exact same thing. Eyeballing the recipe, it looked like the grain bill for an APA, not an IIPA. Perhaps he scaled down the recipe assuming the efficiency they get at RRB? I am going to do exactly as has been suggested by others: pump up the 2-row and sugar to get to target OG.

I liked the article though. There were some tips in there that I'm going to definitely consider.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I made 15 gallons of a Pliney the elder Clone a couple of days ago... it was actually he IIPA recipe out of Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles... and it says right in the recipe that it is a clone of Pliney.

trying to remember the grain bill (I can double check when I get home) but I think it was something like

(per 5 gallons)

14.5 # Amer two row
.5 # wheat
.5 # Crystal 40
.5 # corn sugar

... not sure on weight but pretty sure those were the grains... for 15 gallons I had a total grain bill of something like 46 pounds without the corn sugar.

I can check tonight if you want.

And I ended up with 15 gallons at 1.082

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Here's the one I did: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/pliny-bastid-21229/

I used an even 12 pounds of 2-row and got an OG of 1.073 at 75%. It was my favorite beer, that's for sure!

I followed this one also, for the most part anyway. I wound up with..

10 1/3 lbs 2 Row
1/4lb Crystal 40
3/4lb Carapils
1lb Corn Sugar

Wound up with 1.074 OG and finished out at 1.014. My hop schedule was a little different because I subsitituted Warrior with Chinook, didn't really want to do that but Chinook is what was available. I just started drinking it and it's pretty brutal in the bitterness department. Needs to mellow for a couple weeks. Regardless though, it's pretty awesome. Good Luck

 

[bob1852]

I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.

I hear ya, and I'm not one for bandwagons.Can't stand how everyone is a Lakers fan all of the sudden. But when I had Pliney from the brewery I just about fell over. I really don't think it can ever be truely cloned, or any other beer for that matter. But it really is that good, I have yet to find anything that compares. Of course, it's all very subjective.

 

[bob1852]

I hear ya, and I'm not one for bandwagons.Can't stand how everyone is a Lakers fan all of the sudden. But when I had Pliney from the brewery I just about fell over. I really don't think it can ever be truely cloned, or any other beer for that matter. But it really is that good, I have yet to find anything that compares. Of course, it's all very subjective.

almost enough to make me jump on board -- but I still need to taste one

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

almost enough to make me jump on board -- but I still need to taste one

Road Trip

 

[bob1852]

Road Trip

I can't believe I can't find it in Arizona....

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I can't believe I can't find it in Arizona....

I only live about 3 hours away, and it doesn't get distributed out here. go figure.

 

[paradoc]

14.5 pounds Maris Otter
0.66 pounds Crystal 40
0.66 pounds Carapils
0.5 pounds corn sugar

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.

Well... I ordered my grain to make the grain bill as shown above. I went ahead and increased the crystal and carapils along with the base malt. It is only a small increase and kept the proportions the same. I tend to like the color slightly darker, and like the flavor imparted by the crystal. I'll let you know how it turns out in a few weeks!

 

[user 22118]

I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.

Let me tell you that the Elder wasn't the beer from there that made me fall over, it was the Belgians and the Younger. Then I found out about the Elder and thought, heh, all he makes is good freaking beer. If you can, get some. Any of the bottled beer from there is good.

 

[uwjester]

Looks like Zymurgy is making roughly the same change as paradoc, although slightly more corn sugar and less 2-row. They had scaled the recipe for 5 gallons, not 6.

13.25 lb (6.01 kg) two-row pale malt
0.6 lb (272 g) Crystal 45 malt
0.6 lb (272 g) Carapils (Dextrin) malt
0.75 lb (340 g) dextrose (corn) sugar

 

[JerseyBrian]

so uwjeste, thats the 6 gallon recipe then?

where'd you find the correction.

Im makin this beer soon

 

[uwjester]

Zymurgy updated it in an email in the AHA techtalk

 

[stevenryals]

how about the hops? any update?

 

[thelorax121]

I have had trouble with alot of the BYO (and others) recipes being way under on gravity when I plug them into promash. Best thing to do is fiddle with it yourself and change the recipe to your system.

 

[paradoc]

Well... I brewed this recipe (with the grain modification above) today. Will let you know how it turns out in few weeks!

 

[paradoc]

Tasted a sample when I added the second dry hops addition yesterday, and this beer was OUTSTANDING. Best beer I've brewed. Great hop flavor and aroma. I'll keg it in 4-5 days and can't wait to try it! Vinnie recommends drinking IIPA's "green" to preserve the fresh hops flavor.

Just to clarify... I used the grain bill as suggested in my original post, but kept the hops same as from the recipe. It looked to me like the error in scaling only applied to the grain, not the hops. If someone knows otherwise please let us know. There is enough volume loss from the large grain bill and hop-loss that I came out exactly at 6 gallons with an OG of 1.072 after the boil.

 

[spiny_norman]

Tasted a sample when I added the second dry hops addition yesterday, and this beer was OUTSTANDING. Best beer I've brewed. Great hop flavor and aroma. I'll keg it in 4-5 days and can't wait to try it! Vinnie recommends drinking IIPA's "green" to preserve the fresh hops flavor.

Just to clarify... I used the grain bill as suggested in my original post, but kept the hops same as from the recipe. It looked to me like the error in scaling only applied to the grain, not the hops. If someone knows otherwise please let us know. There is enough volume loss from the large grain bill and hop-loss that I came out exactly at 6 gallons with an OG of 1.072 after the boil.

How much water did you use in total for this one? I did this recipe a couple of weeks ago: I used 8 gallons but collected less than 4 (90 minute boil). I reckon the hops must have soaked up at least a gallon.