Please help me... S8610U Damper Error Issue

[reynolds5520]

I suspect that Honeywell decided to save a few cents on every unit shipped by eliminating the jumper plug. The logic was probably that these are being sold for use as replacement parts and that the needed jumper plug can be pulled off the unit being replaced. That doesn't much help an installer that is using it to universally replace some other type of module.

Of the dozens of these I've installed over the years (including this variant) every single one had the jumper plug in place. It IS very disappointing to learn that they've cheaped out on a part that when missing can permanently disable the unit from functioning as required.

Here is a block diagram of what's going on inside an S8610U taken from an older manual. You can see it shows 24V connecting to Pin 1 to provide power to the damper. You can also see it shows Pin 2 providing power to the internal circuits on a call for heat.

Here is the internal schematic of an M896 Damper. It shows 24V from Pin 1 returning to Pin 2 when the damper is open.

 

[reynolds5520]

edmondsonm, any progress?

 

[de3isit]

No offense guys, but I think this has been way over thought. The yellow jumper is no longer added due to it being an internal jumper on newer models. You do not need to add any jumper wires to make the unit work properly. My first suggestion is to remove the PID from the circuit and apply 24V, without diodes, to 24V GND and TH-W. This should initiate the proper pilot and main valve sequence.

My only concern is that adding the jumper wires into the molex plug you have told the unit to look for a damper. If this is the case the unit will not function properly now.

 

[edmondsonm]

No progress. I have been traveling for work. I will get home later this afternoon and will be accomplishing X-mass decorating. Tomorrow I am going to tackle this again! Thanks for the help.

I did have a conversation with a brewing professional I know and he stated that his system eats these units like candy. He said he goes through 2-3 per year. Yikes, I can't afford that. I hope that once I get this functioning that my rate of use will be much lower than his was and I hope to get multiple years use out of one unit.

 

[de3isit]

I'm not sure why he would go through so many units. In all my time working at Honeywell I have never heard that. I would suspect either application or condition is playing a factor. I am using three of them in my set up and have not had a single issue. Let me know if I can help in any way, as I have quite a bit of experience with Honeywell products.

Oh, by the way, the sharpie on the molex is an inspection mark.

 

[reynolds5520]

Each of the orange wires has a fat spot under some shrink tubing. Each of those contains a diode so one leg does not back feed the other leg. I can post the specs on the diode if that eventually comes under scrutiny. Suffice it to say that I did the same in the other circuit that runs my pump and that works perfectly.

I missed that when you posted it before, the comment from de3isit had me go back looking.

Diodes work for isolation between components in DC circuits. A single diode in an AC circuit acts as a half wave rectifier. You're basically sending the module a rippling 24 V DC. The module isn't designed for DC so you should eliminate the diodes.

There shouldn't be any need to prevent back feeding in this circuit.

 

[reynolds5520]

I'm not sure why he would go through so many units. In all my time working at Honeywell I have never heard that. I would suspect either application or condition is playing a factor.

It sounds to me like his system is cycling them too often. These are designed for applications like furnaces that fire up and keep running awhile then don't fire again right away. A controller firing often for short runs to hold a steady temp will greatly increase the cycle count.

A homebrewer that doesn't run the system very often may never have an issue even with frequent/short cycles.

If you're concerned, you could reconfigure it to cycle the spark and pilot valve on at the beginning of the session. Put the temp control between the module and the main valve. That would allow the main valve to cycle often while reducing the spark/pilot cycle count to once per session. This is probably what your pro friend should do on his systems.

 

[edmondsonm]

I see a few things here....
I can definitely re-test the unit(s) with out the PID (really the Love switch) and w/o the Diode. Now I see what the diode may be doing on that circuit. Woops.

I might need to redesign the circuit. Question is how to keep one leg from back-feeding the other? Maybe another SSR and just feed it nice clean 24 volt AC from the transformer on the load side of the SSR, but keep the diodes and change the control side of the circuit to the DC side of the SSR. I got plenty of options.

Damn, I wish I was a bit more knowledgeable.

Thanks all.
-Mike

 

[reynolds5520]

I don't think you need to be worried about back feeding. Both sides are providing the same 24 VAC, so there's nothing that will be damaged. Also, on both sides the back feed will just end at the open side of the switch or relay.

Just replace the diode wires with straight wires and move on to the other troubleshooting.

 

[edmondsonm]

I missed that when you posted it before, the comment from de3isit had me go back looking.

Diodes work for isolation between components in DC circuits. A single diode in an AC circuit acts as a half wave rectifier. You're basically sending the module a rippling 24 V DC. The module isn't designed for DC so you should eliminate the diodes.

You were spot on!!! Success. I have to rewire some stuff permanently but I got it all working as I wanted it to!!

Also, I edited my original post to let folks searching this topic know that the problem was solved thanks to you guys and the answer is on page 4.

I thank you all.

Now I just have to carve out the time to re-wire and BREW!!!!!

I like how these units works.

 

[edmondsonm]

I don't think you need to be worried about back feeding. Both sides are providing the same 24 VAC, so there's nothing that will be damaged. Also, on both sides the back feed will just end at the open side of the switch or relay.

I am not worried about a darn thing anymore! Thanks to your help.

The way I designed the indicator lights into the circuit, they will get back-fed and simultaneously illuminate once the switch goes from off to either alternate state. So I will go with my idea to just feed DC to the control switch and keep the diodes as they are. Then I'll just take the clean 24VAC on the load side of my SSR since it is rated 24-240VAC on the load side.

 

[reynolds5520]

Good to hear you got it working!

So you didn't need any jumpers?


Oh right, indicators on the switch circuit, I can see where that would call for the diodes or a multipole switch to keep the circuits isolated.

 

[de3isit]

That's awesome. Glad to hear everything worked out.