PicoBrew Zymatic

[Siberian]

I use mine in my kitchen and don't notice any steam at all. My LHBS uses theirs in the shop and there's no noticeable steam.

Awesome, my current system which I was going to move in from the garage to the basement can handle the level of temp control and mirror the re-circulation the Zymatic is doing so I'm considering trying to run a batch through it with a 207 degree re-circulation/limited boil off and see if the beer turns out okay.

Would simplify my build process if I didn't have to figure out what to do with a gallon of water vaporized into steam indoors.

 

[Denny]

Awesome, my current system which I was going to move in from the garage to the basement can handle the level of temp control and mirror the re-circulation the Zymatic is doing so I'm considering trying to run a batch through it with a 207 degree re-circulation/limited boil off and see if the beer turns out okay.

Would simplify my build process if I didn't have to figure out what to do with a gallon of water vaporized into steam indoors.

Is it a totally closed system like the Zymatic?

 

[Siberian]

Is it a totally closed system like the Zymatic?

It is when the lid is on excluding a small hole, big enough for a temperature probe it's a closed system. So I would have some space for DMS, etc to escape.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469014049.326503.jpg

If I pull my recirculating hose/float off the inside of the lid I'd get a drop/foaming similar to what must be happening as the Zymatic returns the beer through the keg gas tube. I have some antifoam agent (fermcap) I used to use to prevent boil overs in a smaller pot.

So I'd recirculate constantly at 207 for 60 minutes and go from there. I think the result would be similar.

Worth a try for a batch I suppose. Not boiling off a gallon every batch would save electricity and me cutting holes in my basement walls. [emoji3]

 

[Siberian]

Ran it today, got it to hold steady at 208 (close enough) 'boiled' off only .15 of a gallon per beersmith. Which was my guess so I actually hit all my numbers.

Did a batch of Biermunchers centennial blonde. I did this to mimic the return through the gas post of the keg during the boil.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469397092.442285.jpg

If the beer turns out decent I'll have to do another batch for side by side tasting and start another thread.

 

[Mekana]

re: chilling the wort for a Zymatic brew....I just picked up a Corny Pillar from JaDeD to use with my Zymatic. Less than 5 min. to chill the batch to pitching temp.

I just got one too!

So here's a newbie question... When you use the Corny Pillar, do you also run the chill cycle on the Zymatic?

I have always done the "no chill"; just leaving the keg until the next day to pitch the yeast- so I've never actually run the chill cycle on the Zymatic at all.

Was thinking (maybe?) the chill cycle would simulate stirring around the Corny Pillar to get it to cool down faster... And it would be handy to use the machine to track both time and temperature too.

 

[Siberian]

Mekana, from what I understand the chill cycle just recirculates without heat to chill it down using an ice bath.

I think there is no reason you wouldn't use it with the corny pillar.

 

[tsatsa]

I just got one too!

So here's a newbie question... When you use the Corny Pillar, do you also run the chill cycle on the Zymatic?

I have always done the "no chill"; just leaving the keg until the next day to pitch the yeast- so I've never actually run the chill cycle on the Zymatic at all.

Was thinking (maybe?) the chill cycle would simulate stirring around the Corny Pillar to get it to cool down faster... And it would be handy to use the machine to track both time and temperature too.

chilling step with the zymatic is simply wort recirculating in the machine with a temperature check. You have to chill with an external device like the corny pillar. When the given temperature is reached, the chill phase ends after 5 minutes of stable temp

 

[Mekana]

Awesome- that's what I was hoping... So since the keg seal & foam trap have to be off to use the Corny Pillar, are there any issues with splashing/foaming? Is there a need to use some sort of sanitized towel or something over the keg opening?

I had read about foaming issues using the ice bath chilling method, that seemed to be due to the chill taking a long time. With the Corny Pillar, since it chills so quickly, foaming isn't likely an issue?

 

[Elaelap]

You get a bit of foaming from the pillar, but by the time it's done chilling nothing foams over. The pillar is a fantastic addition to the Zymatic!

 

[aangel]

Hey all! I'm on my way from a house to a smaller apartment in about a year and am going to have to ditch my big brew setup. Looking at apartment-sized options and the zymatic seems the best fit. One big question:

Is DMS a problem here? Everywhere I've read that boiling is required to remove the DMS from the wort or you'll create grits/creamed corn/tomato flavors. The Zymatic doesn't boil, it brings the wort to 207F.

 

[Denny]

Hey all! I'm on my way from a house to a smaller apartment in about a year and am going to have to ditch my big brew setup. Looking at apartment-sized options and the zymatic seems the best fit. One big question:

Is DMS a problem here? Everywhere I've read that boiling is required to remove the DMS from the wort or you'll create grits/creamed corn/tomato flavors. The Zymatic doesn't boil, it brings the wort to 207F.

There is noting magic about 212 other than it agitates the wort. That's what really removes the DMS...the agitation of a rolling boil. But the Zymatic is constantly agitating the wort by recirculation. I have never had a DMS issue with any of the batches I've brewed.

 

[aangel]

Awesome. Thanks Denny. Now to sell the equipment I spent an absurd amount of time and money designing and building. *sigh*

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

No, it's not a problem. Even 207F is well above the evaporation rate for DMS compounds.

 

[jrcrilly]

I adjust my recipes to 205 degrees due to my altitude. 39 brews in, I have yet to experience the off flavors mentioned from DMS.

 

[jmadway]

No DMS. Or STD's for that matter.

 

[Wingfan13]

Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread or elsewhere but I searched and couldnt find anything. With 2 kids and less and less time to brew I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this and have 2 main questions.

1. I read somewhere that you can actually make larger batches on the system than 2.5 gallons and I was wondering if someone could explain how that is done ? I am fine with 2.5 gallon batches but it would be nice to make larger batches every once in a while.

2. Has anyone notice any issues with hop flavor, aroma, bitterness because this does not boil ?

Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[KirkMN]

Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread or elsewhere but I searched and couldnt find anything. With 2 kids and less and less time to brew I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this and have 2 main questions.

1. I read somewhere that you can actually make larger batches on the system than 2.5 gallons and I was wondering if someone could explain how that is done ? I am fine with 2.5 gallon batches but it would be nice to make larger batches every once in a while.

2. Has anyone notice any issues with hop flavor, aroma, bitterness because this does not boil ?

Thanks for the help in advance.

It's limited to 9 pounds of grain and 4.5 (something around this number, can't quite remember) gallons of water, so you can make a larger quantity of a lower gravity beer. I've typically made 3.5 gallon batches of 1.048 wort.

We do have a small Facebook group, 424 members now.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/picrobrewers/

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

Every brewing system has slightly different hop utilization. The small difference in boil temperature has little to do with it. So like any other brew system, you will likely need to tweak your recipes and timing a bit to get the results you are after compared to whatever you are using now.

 

[DemonsRun]

Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread or elsewhere but I searched and couldnt find anything. With 2 kids and less and less time to brew I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this and have 2 main questions.

1. I read somewhere that you can actually make larger batches on the system than 2.5 gallons and I was wondering if someone could explain how that is done ? I am fine with 2.5 gallon batches but it would be nice to make larger batches every once in a while.

2. Has anyone notice any issues with hop flavor, aroma, bitterness because this does not boil ?

Thanks for the help in advance.

1. I have not had any issue with Hop flavor/aroma/bitterness. I brew a lot of hop forward beers.

2. For a 3.5 Gallon batch and max out the grain compartment with 9# two row, you can get 1.07 OG. If you add a pound of sugar you can bump it to 1.077 or so. Now that's according to the recipe editor. In practice my Higher OG 3.5 gallon batches tend to hit 1.068, but a few have hit 1.07 before I add any sugar. While my Lower OG batches all tend to hit dead on or a bit above the recipe editor. (I am just using a Barley Crusher and I'm fairly sure it is due to my grain crush)

Other people just do High OG 2.5 gallon batches and add water to dilute to the OG/Batch size they want.

 

[jmadway]

I routinely make 3 to 3.75 gallon batches. And you can make 5 gallon batches by diluting high gravity wort. I hardly ever make 2.5 gallon batches, although that's the right size for some folks. I thought that the batch size on the machine would be an issue for me, but it hasn't been. Brewing a batch is so much less time consuming that you can brew smaller batches regularly and you don't miss 5-gallon batches.

 

[Anyhowe]

Bottom line for this machine after many brews is that it will make a near perfect wort and you can define and design perfection any way you want.

 

[BurntOrngeLonghorn84]

Anyone do mini mash recipes using the zymatic to get the 5.5 gallon brews?

If PicoBrew says you can put DME in with the grain; can buy a minimash kit, do a 30 minute "mash", 60 min boil, take your 3.5 gallons of wort and add water to make 5.5 gallons? I'm assuming the answer is yes given the "high gravity wort" comments on earlier pages.

So close to buying one but the durability and 2.5 gallon batch size are keeping me on the sidelines. Although I'm slowly warming up to more often, but smaller batches.

 

[truthrider]

I've got a Z and have around 20 brews done with it. It's pretty good but the software is glitchy. They don't put much of an effort into solving the software issues due to being focused on the Pico. They got a pretty hefty private equity investment and seems to have moved the focus to the Pico witch probably as a more mass market appeal. Mass market appeal means you get the attention of the big guy$.

From the private forum at pico brew: The ALL CAPs guy is the customer service rep-
Kevin wrote:


And YES! PART OF THIS CONVERSATION WAS ALSO DISCUSSION ABOUT THE RECIPE CRAFTER CHANGES, WHEN THEY'RE COMING, AND HOW I CAN'T GO ON THE FORUMS ANYMORE WITHOUT SOMEONE ASKING ME ABOUT IT.


Member:
Though the latter IS our fault, you gotta recognize that the former is NOT.

Sorry it won't just die like the other ideas in the suggestion forum, but I'd wager Z users are feeling rather neglected after shelling out and having a platform that has parts to it that feel like they're still in beta testing while PicoBrew pumps out new products.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I've got a Z and have around 20 brews done with it. It's pretty good but the software is glitchy. They don't put much of an effort into solving the software issues due to being focused on the Pico. They got a pretty hefty private equity investment and seems to have moved the focus to the Pico witch probably as a more mass market appeal. Mass market appeal means you get the attention of the big guy$.

From the private forum at pico brew: The ALL CAPs guy is the customer service rep-
Kevin wrote:


And YES! PART OF THIS CONVERSATION WAS ALSO DISCUSSION ABOUT THE RECIPE CRAFTER CHANGES, WHEN THEY'RE COMING, AND HOW I CAN'T GO ON THE FORUMS ANYMORE WITHOUT SOMEONE ASKING ME ABOUT IT.


Member:
Though the latter IS our fault, you gotta recognize that the former is NOT.

Sorry it won't just die like the other ideas in the suggestion forum, but I'd wager Z users are feeling rather neglected after shelling out and having a platform that has parts to it that feel like they're still in beta testing while PicoBrew pumps out new products.

Yeah, that was me. 'Pumps' may be a bit strong, but they have released two products since the Z was released 2 years ago.

I'm not trying to antagonize them (though I did point out in another thread that the last response on the issue, "in the next few months" was over a year old)- just trying to see them actually deliver.

As to my beta testing comment... FFS- when they released v1.11 of the firmware the keg pump stayed in during the drain cycle- I was the one that found out and let them know... And ruined a batch.

They don't stand to make any more money on existing Z customers- they have other priorities. That said, looks like the brewhouse interface is getting an upgrade- and apparently the recipe crafter advanced editor bug is getting fixed ;-)

 

[crane]

They don't put much of an effort into solving the software issues due to being focused on the Pico. They got a pretty hefty private equity investment and seems to have moved the focus to the Pico witch probably as a more mass market appeal. Mass market appeal means you get the attention of the big guy$.

This is a common strategy with startups. It's referred to as a "minimum viable product". You develop the initial product just enough to test out the market space and demand for the product. This makes it much easier for the startup to get going with a minimal first investment and makes them more attractive when they start seeking their second larger round of funding.

In some cases it is a good idea for the startup to offer a discounted trade-in program for their early adopters of the minimum viable product so they are not stuck in the situation that you guys are in today. Unfortunately here the differences between the pico and the Z are great enough that most of the Z owners probably would not want to switch over to the pico due to the smaller batch size and the inability to create your own recipes and buy your ingredients separately. There was definitely a shift in the target consumer from the Z to the pico. The Z was aimed at brewers, which would provide a good supply of educated beta testers, and new feature requesters. The pico is now aimed at guys who don't know beans about brewing, but simply like craft beer.

I'm not surprised that they made this shift. The potential market for the Z is rather small compared to the pico. Investors care about these numbers and pressure their startups into making decisions like these as they are looking to invest in the next big thing (the beer brewing equivalent of a keurig coffee maker).

I'm not saying that anything this company has done is right or wrong. I'm only stating the corporate perspective and motivation behind how startups operate. Most homebrewing companies are run by homebrewers where there is extreme loyalty to their customers. This does not seem to be the case here.

 

[Denny]

FWIW, now that the Pico is shipping they seem to be refocusing their efforts on software. And PLEASE don't get pissed off at Kevin the customer service guy. He has no say in the order of development and more than the gate agent at the airport has control over when the plane leaves.

 

[Thorrak]

FWIW, now that the Pico is shipping they seem to be refocusing their efforts on software. And PLEASE don't get pissed off at Kevin the customer service guy. He has no say in the order of development and more than the gate agent at the airport has control over when the plane leaves.

Honestly, I'm just hoping they release the open source the firmware like they've been talking about for awhile. I expect it would speed up bug fixes given the increased number of eyes, and also will help stave off obsolescence if they ever decide to discontinue the product.

That said, I've been pleased both with the Zymatic and with the service Picobrew has provided. My beer has never been better.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

FWIW, now that the Pico is shipping they seem to be refocusing their efforts on software. And PLEASE don't get pissed off at Kevin the customer service guy. He has no say in the order of development and more than the gate agent at the airport has control over when the plane leaves.

Until they're in the middle of another product and the Z gets shelved. I've been told that there was a major upgrade close to completion that got scrapped, what's to stop that from happening again? I get how it works - I have a whole suite of codes at work I'd like to upgrade, but they don't pay the bills.

The way they kept the Z and Pico forums separate smells a fishy to me, can't have the grumbling of the current consumers concern the new ones.

I know you're a fan, Denny, and your endorsement was a huge feather in their cap. But, for some of those of us that shelled out nearly $2k two years ago counting on the potential the system had, we have the right to air our frustrations and the responsibility to help others makes fully informed decisions. I'm making great beer, but currently believe there is better bang for your buck out there.

Finally, Kevin has been great- always responsive (see my discovery about the firmware) to real issues- I'm sure he has his hands full.

 

[Denny]

Until they're in the middle of another product and the Z gets shelved. I've been told that there was a major upgrade close to completion that got scrapped, what's to stop that from happening again? I get how it works - I have a whole suite of codes at work I'd like to upgrade, but they don't pay the bills.

The way they kept the Z and Pico forums separate smells a fishy to me, can't have the grumbling of the current consumers concern the new ones.

I know you're a fan, Denny, and your endorsement was a huge feather in their cap. But, for some of those of us that shelled out nearly $2k two years ago counting on the potential the system had, we have the right to air our frustrations and the responsibility to help others makes fully informed decisions. I'm making great beer, but currently believe there is better bang for your buck out there.

Finally, Kevin has been great- always responsive (see my discovery about the firmware) to real issues- I'm sure he has his hands full.

I'm curious what you think the better bang for the buck is. For instance, I have a Grainfather also and I don't find it at all comparable or a substitute for the Zymatic. Also, I understand what you're saying about the recipe crafter. I'd like to see more than the minor improvements they've made, too. But I don't find it limits me from making great beer with the Z.

I also don't see anything fishy about separating the forums. It makes as much sense as separating the forums here.

 

[clasley]

I picked up a Zymatic a little over a year ago. Until that point I was brewing on a 20L Speidel Braumeister, fine machine. Before that a fully tricked out 10 gallon Blichmann TopTier. Over the past 25 years I've been searching for a compromise between simplicity and functionality in brewing.

I had concerns about the Zymatic - primarily the batch size. To date none of my concerns have been of any consequence. Turns out the batch size is one of my favorite features. The smaller volume makes every thing just a little bit easier (my back doesn't mind it either). I have more beer on hand than I ever had mostly because it's just bone simple to set things up and knock out a batch while I'm doing things around the house. More beer, more variety, more better.

The biggest surprise to me was how interested my wife suddenly became in brewing. Over the years she's hung out while I was brewing but had zero interest messing with propane bottles, boiling wort, pumps, hoses, etc. Now she's brewing routinely on her own and brewing together has become a normal activity. She likes to point out how good "her" beers are - and they are.

When I have run into issues Kevin and the others at Picobrew have been truly spectacular. Honestly first rate support. I have nothing but good things to say about this beer loving support team.

Sure there's room for improvement with the online experience. Things have been a little clumsy lately as they roll out the Pico. Yes, I would like to see regular scheduled updates with some transparency into what/when they are scheduled to go live. But none of that keeps me from loving this machine. What I have in my hands today is completely functional and I/we are brewing some of the best beers we've ever brewed.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I'm curious what you think the better bang for the buck is. For instance, I have a Grainfather also and I don't find it at all comparable or a substitute for the Zymatic. Also, I understand what you're saying about the recipe crafter. I'd like to see more than the minor improvements they've made, too. But I don't find it limits me from making great beer with the Z.

I also don't see anything fishy about separating the forums. It makes as much sense as separating the forums here.

I was actually thinking of the Grainfather, albeit without having actually used one. I realize that a user would be giving up a good bit of autonomy - but at half the price of admission. Alternatively, for better control - I like the looks of the Nano from Colorado Brewing company - still less autonomy than the Z. The Brewha BIACs enter a different price point.

I guess this is a major part of my issue - I have the Zymatic leveled and dialed in such that I can set it up, press go, and walk away. But I have to be there for that and have to be available 6 hours later for when its done. The tech is there for it to start a brew at 2PM without me (after I've set it up earlier) and then I can deal with the cleanup at 8PM when I'm home. Be that via a remote start, an intentional delay (that doesn't require circulating the water for X hours), or otherwise. I want to use it WAY more than I do, because I rarely have a 6 hour window (even 5 with the short mash) when I'm home (and awake) to take advantage of the autonomy it could have. The capability is there, its just out of reach. With that outlook, I suppose I want it to be something that it is not.

Also - I'm talking about the complete segregation of the forums, which they claim is because they are testing a different forum platform. If you don't have a Pico or a Z, you can't see the other forum (though there are a few cross posts popping.) The reason I believe? There are plenty of requests reaching way back, and some minor grumbling on the Z forums. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other posts, but that forum doesn't get a ton of traffic - and 2 year old questions about frustrating software that hasn't been addressed might throw some red flags for some people.

 

[xipetotec]

Also - I'm talking about the complete segregation of the forums, which they claim is because they are testing a different forum platform. If you don't have a Pico or a Z, you can't see the other forum (though there are a few cross posts popping.) The reason I believe? There are plenty of requests reaching way back, and some minor grumbling on the Z forums. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other posts, but that forum doesn't get a ton of traffic - and 2 year old questions about frustrating software that hasn't been addressed might throw some red flags for some people.

Except the pico owners would have already bought into the pico to get into the forum, not sure why they would suddenly not want their hardware based on people who own a completely different product complaining about software that they never have to deal with or care about. Given that their forum software is absolute crap I'd be willing to take the picobrew folks at face value there.

 

[Denny]

I was actually thinking of the Grainfather, albeit without having actually used one. I realize that a user would be giving up a good bit of autonomy - but at half the price of admission. Alternatively, for better control - I like the looks of the Nano from Colorado Brewing company - still less autonomy than the Z. The Brewha BIACs enter a different price point.

I guess this is a major part of my issue - I have the Zymatic leveled and dialed in such that I can set it up, press go, and walk away. But I have to be there for that and have to be available 6 hours later for when its done. The tech is there for it to start a brew at 2PM without me (after I've set it up earlier) and then I can deal with the cleanup at 8PM when I'm home. Be that via a remote start, an intentional delay (that doesn't require circulating the water for X hours), or otherwise. I want to use it WAY more than I do, because I rarely have a 6 hour window (even 5 with the short mash) when I'm home (and awake) to take advantage of the autonomy it could have. The capability is there, its just out of reach. With that outlook, I suppose I want it to be something that it is not.

Also - I'm talking about the complete segregation of the forums, which they claim is because they are testing a different forum platform. If you don't have a Pico or a Z, you can't see the other forum (though there are a few cross posts popping.) The reason I believe? There are plenty of requests reaching way back, and some minor grumbling on the Z forums. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other posts, but that forum doesn't get a ton of traffic - and 2 year old questions about frustrating software that hasn't been addressed might throw some red flags for some people.

There's really no way to compare a Z and a Grainfather. They're completely different in terms of theory and operation. About the only comparison is that they both produce wort! I like the Grainfather pretty well, but I would never give up the ease and especially repeatability of the Z.

Drew has really been pushing for a remote start feature, too. I know it's in the list, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

As to the separation of forums, they're telling you the truth. I know these people pretty well, and despite my connection to them, I can assure you that they don't lie and they're not playing games.

 

[truthrider]

Here is one regarding the software interface update that has long been promised:
This thread started 24 days ago. I've checked back several times looking to see if there is a fix for the new recipe editing bug that came with the new BrewHouse page format. I have the same problem Augurin reported: I still can't edit a recipe...the ingredients disappear. CONTROL+SHIFT+R does nothing. CONTROL+F5 yields the message pasted below...but the page does not refresh and bring up the recipe editor properly with ingredients. I also can't cancel out of the recipe editor using the cancel button. Nothing happens. I have to close the page to escape the editor. Is there another way to get the page to refresh and bring up the ingredients? I would really like to brew my recipe this week.
Since I'm writing about the BrewHouse page: I also vote against the new look. The page is crowded and clunky-looking.

 

[DemonsRun]

I have to close the page to escape the editor. Is there another way to get the page to refresh and bring up the ingredients? I would really like to brew my recipe this week.
Since I'm writing about the BrewHouse page: I also vote against the new look. The page is crowded and clunky-looking.

I have created new recipes and edited old ones and brewed new recipes Sunday and last weekend. I have had no issue with the recipe editor I use both Chrome and Firefox (Mac, PC, and iPhone)

Now the brewhouse page is ugly. Beer glass Logos are too big and honestly useless. But I have had no issues with functionality.

Love my Z and brew every other weekend sometimes more. My old RIMS only gets used twice a year now.

 

[crooow]

I've been researching the Zymatic, and I've been a little surprised at the number of people who report having had little issues with it that have required contacting the company. I'm curious how many people have had problems. I'm deciding between this and a Braumeister.

 

[Denny]

I've been researching the Zymatic, and I've been a little surprised at the number of people who report having had little issues with it that have required contacting the company. I'm curious how many people have had problems. I'm deciding between this and a Braumeister.

No problems here. And I'm not super familiar with the Braumeister, but they seem very different.

 

[crooow]

No problems here. And I'm not super familiar with the Braumeister, but they seem very different.

I've got a three vessel setup, but I also have young kids, so I can't dedicate as much time to brewing as I'd like. Like everyone else, most of my brew day consists of waiting for water to heat and babysitting mash temps, so I'm willing to do small batches if I can automate those parts. Both the Braumeister and Zymatic can do those things, but the Zymatic is probably a better fit since it automates hop additions too.

I'm mostly worried about dropping a ton of money on the Zymatic only to have Picobrew go belly up in a few years. Since they provide the web-software, and they are the only source for parts, I'm weighing how risky the purchase is.

 

[jrcrilly]

I've got a three vessel setup, but I also have young kids, so I can't dedicate as much time to brewing as I'd like. Like everyone else, most of my brew day consists of waiting for water to heat and babysitting mash temps, so I'm willing to do small batches if I can automate those parts. Both the Braumeister and Zymatic can do those things, but the Zymatic is probably a better fit since it automates hop additions too.

Yup, When time and weather permit, the 3V HERMS/RIMS rig does the job and makes 10 gallons. The Z makes it possible to keep brewing when time and/or weather fail to cooperate. It also makes it easy and inexpensive to do small trial runs of new recipes. I have it in my office and it goes ahead and takes care of its business while I take care of mine without interruptions. I wouldn't want to do without either system.

 

[AlpacaBrew]

I was going to buy the Z until I saw Brewie. The Brewie is in production but not on the market yet. I will wait until around Dec when the first units get tested by the people who pre-ordered and see if it lives up to all the hype. The machine looks great and if it can produce great beer I will be buying one.