PicoBrew Zymatic

[stonebrewer]

Placing a tee prior to the glycol pump and running tubing up the side of the Zymatic is a fine approach for helping trap air. I wouldn't fill it more than half full and check it often. Might need to relieve pressure once in a while so that air gets trapped up there a little better. It's not the best solution, but until we figure out what is, that should help.

I doubt that solution will trap a lot of air while the machine is running, but once its shut off the air should try to find the highest point. A slightly better approach would be to run the tubing in a bit of an arc up the side of the machine and place the tee at the top of that arc, so more air gets trapped. If the tee is below the rest of the loop, I don't know that it serves a great purpose.

I've had mixed reviews on the reservoir. It seems to help push out the need to burp the system often, but does not eliminate it. And frankly, that may be what is needed in the long run. A way to run the system cold and allow the air to accumulate in an upper area so it can then be burped and then sealed off again, making this a periodic maintenance item.

Thanks again Mike for helping out!! I was wondering if I put this on the end of the tube if there would be any issues with it: Check Valve or this for 1/2 ID Check Valve 1/2 ???

Thinking run another tube from that into a can to catch any possible glycol that could make its way out. Opens with about .7 PSI of gas pressure to vent the tube. Silicone like we use in brewing is rated around 10-20 PSI.

Thoughts on this approach @Mike Howard or others?

 

[Mike Howard]

I'm not sure how much pressure builds up in the loop when it gets to ~207F? I'd be hesitant to open the loop when its hot. More investigation is needed on that front I would imagine.

The concept of the catch can in the closed loop like some of us have should theoretically work, but my guess is that the reservoir we are using is either too small or doesn't have a relief to allow the pressure to escape and thus just pushes the air straight back through. I'm not overly concerned if we can just make it a maint item and burp the thing every 10 brews. I'd been thinking of adding a valve to the top of the reservoir that I could open and run cold to do just that but I'm significantly behind on any Zymatic projects.

 

[stonebrewer]

I got this: Brass Shutoff Valve to put at the top of my loop for now to vent any pressure. They seem very well built and come with clamps. Nice thing is I can use it to refill with glycol as well without having to remove and replace clamps, which reduces wear and tear and possibility of leaks due to under or over tightening the clamps. Once I get the mod in place, I will post a few pictures and let you know if I was able to revive the machine or not...fingers crossed.

 

[stonebrewer]

Placing a tee prior to the glycol pump and running tubing up the side of the Zymatic is a fine approach for helping trap air. I wouldn't fill it more than half full and check it often. Might need to relieve pressure once in a while so that air gets trapped up there a little better. It's not the best solution, but until we figure out what is, that should help.

@Mike Howard : See attached picture. Do I put the tee at A or B? Any precautions, ideas on how to not get glycol everywhere when I remove one of those hoses and how to limit air intake? Looks like J.D. Hill's procedure removed B and elevated the left side to reduce glycol loss...if I am reading it right.

So I started on the procedure this morning and hit a snag early on. The first drip tray screw came off, though it was a little tight. The second one was stripped so I could not get it out. Tried an ez out but there was not enough room between the edges of the drip tray to get the tool in, even with a 90 degree screw driver. Ended up cutting it out with a dremel...melted some of the plastic on the drip tray so will have to silicone it up to keep from leaking and find a new screw to replace the one I destroyed...sigh! Nothing ever goes quite as planned, eh? Also, the procedure says to use a 1/8th hex for the last hex nut under the tray, but mine was actually a 9/16th hex.

Optionally, could I put the tee at the location marked TEE? That would be easier, not worried about glycol or added air since that is already where all the trapped air is currently located. My SS barbed tee will arrive later today <UPDATE now tomorrow, thanks Amazon!> so hoping to hear from ya today so I can do a test run tonight...cheers and again a huge thank you for the advice!!

 

[stonebrewer]

JOY!!!

Just put the machine mostly back together. Put the splice in for my glycol fill at the TEE location in my previous post. There was a LOT of air to get out, but I think I got it all using that location!! I am currently doing a cleaning session on it which failed miserably before adding the glycol! Chugging right along happily as I type. See picture below at 106F from 67F!! First picture is my glycol fill tube, second is my bottle to top it off, third is Zymatic in a cleaning cycle. I am so damn happy this old beast is alive again. Thanks to all who posted here and especially @Mike Howard !

 

[stonebrewer]

NO JOY!!

Looks like Ht2 is heating up so fast that I get error #1. Worked fine on cleaning cycle last night but during a brew session it is not so happy...

EDIT: Maybe my water was too cold? It started about 60F and the Ht2 got to 113F. Ran it a couple more times and it error'd about 3 times before it got past the error and continued. Not sure if that is good for the machine or not, so perhaps I will start with warmer water next time. I also burped the glycol but doubt that had anything to do with it...anyway, brew continues so fingers crossed!!

 

[stonebrewer]

I'm not sure how much pressure builds up in the loop when it gets to ~207F? I'd be hesitant to open the loop when its hot. More investigation is needed on that front I would imagine.

I put a shutoff valve at the top of my loop. During mash in today, I cracked it quickly and closed it, There was SIGNIFICANT pressure built up so an open loop WILL NOT WORK!!! Testing complete! LOL!

 

[stonebrewer]

My simple amber is cooling so that I can pitch. Cleanup done and ready to jump back in and brew another beer. Something like an IPL perhaps. Too bad the wife took my lager chamber to use as a freezer, but it is cold enough here I can likely just sit it in the garage to ferment...having some minor technical issues, but things are a lot more promising today than yesterday!!

 

[Mike Howard]

NO JOY!!

Looks like Ht2 is heating up so fast that I get error #1. Worked fine on cleaning cycle last night but during a brew session it is not so happy...

EDIT: Maybe my water was too cold? It started about 60F and the Ht2 got to 113F. Ran it a couple more times and it error'd about 3 times before it got past the error and continued. Not sure if that is good for the machine or not, so perhaps I will start with warmer water next time. I also burped the glycol but doubt that had anything to do with it...anyway, brew continues so fingers crossed!!

My guess is that the 50 degree differential between sensors got you, especially if you were able to continue on after a bit. It could also be there is still air trapped in the RIMS unit. Try tilting the unit up to 45 degree angle on all sides to try and force the air out of those pockets and into your air trap. You need to do this while the unit is powered on so the glycol pump is operating. You do not need to be pumping liquid, the unit just needs turned on.

 

[stonebrewer]

My guess is that the 50 degree differential between sensors got you, especially if you were able to continue on after a bit. It could also be there is still air trapped in the RIMS unit. Try tilting the unit up to 45 degree angle on all sides to try and force the air out of those pockets and into your air trap. You need to do this while the unit is powered on so the glycol pump is operating. You do not need to be pumping liquid, the unit just needs turned on.

Next time I run the unit I will do as you suggest to see if that helps. I measured the water temp with a Thermapen and it was actually 51F, not 60F to start with. Water is definitely colder this time of year, but trapped air is possible. Pumps sound good and I have not had to add glycol. Likely do another cleaning run this weekend and brew a vienna lager. Will post if the issue occurs again, but fingers crossed that all the air is out after that last session...BTW checked the fermenter and my ale is happily chugging out CO2! Making beer again!

 

[stonebrewer]

Brewing again today, a Vienna Lager based on a John Palmer recipe...had no issues with startup this time like the last time.,,maybe there was air in the RIMS and I brewed it out last session? Anyhow, really happy to have one in the fermenter and another in process!

 

[Mylo]

Well, I got jiggy with my Zymatic and refilled the glycol line. It actually heats now! It must have took 6-8 oz of glycol.

Now, the next step is to find out where the wort is leaking from. The pool of cleaning solution is very big on my bench top. It’s level. I can’t tell if it’s from splashing, stepper alignment, or just a leaky fluid arm. It seems to be coming out the side.

Mylo

 

[Mylo]

@Mike Howard do you have a tool or procedure for checking / adjusting the stepper arm alignment?

 

[Mike Howard]

I don't. I had always planned on it, but got too wrapped up in other projects. I can tell you that it is fairly easy using the Test Menu and just adjusting the set screw for the home position. Align it by eye first and then make small tweaks to fine tune it. The Zym uses an alignment disc so you really only have to adjust the HOME position. Check out the Zymatic Thread and just search for "stepper arm", you should find posts where I talk about the leak I had. There are some pics in there also. Let me know if you run into any problems. The only caution I'll give you is to pay close attention to how the disc comes apart with little plastic washers/spacers.

 

[Mike Howard]

FYI: Stepper Arm Rebuild LINKBACK

 

[Mylo]

I don't. I had always planned on it, but got too wrapped up in other projects. I can tell you that it is fairly easy using the Test Menu and just adjusting the set screw for the home position. Align it by eye first and then make small tweaks to fine tune it. The Zym uses an alignment disc so you really only have to adjust the HOME position. Check out the Zymatic Thread and just search for "stepper arm", you should find posts where I talk about the leak I had. There are some pics in there also. Let me know if you run into any problems. The only caution I'll give you is to pay close attention to how the disc comes apart with little plastic washers/spacers.

Is the "home" position the "mash in" position?

 

[Mike Howard]

Yes. Straight out the front. If you enter Test mode you can cycle through the stops.

 

[Mylo]

Ok. That's just a janky system for sealing... Looks like the fluid arm has a tube embedded inside the stainless - and there is a little silicone donut on the downtube to mate with it and with a bunch of goo on it it to fill in the air gaps. Why didn't they put an o-ring in there. I might have to redesign that after I get this thing working.

@Mike Howard So the goo you recommend is the Hayes 80S Lubri-Film vs regular keg lube - because it's a little more viscous, I assume? I repurposed some of the existing blob, and topped it off with keg lube. It slowed the leak down, but it still isn't holding back enough. I guess I'll pick up some Hayes.


Mylo

 

[Mike Howard]

Hayes Lubri-Film has a better sealing quality IMO and is designed for the restaurant industry.

 

[Mylo]

Well, still no love. I got the Hayes goop, and "packed" the area between the inner hose and the white ring. Then I applied some downward pressure to seat the 1/4" tube into its cradle. Excess goop pushed out the top, which I dressed with my finger. And then packed some more above it, just for good measure.

I did get a seal during a clean for about 15 minutes (until it lost connection to SBC and just STOPPED the cleaning job). This was late last night, so I just drained the machine and went to bed. This morning, I tried a cleaning session with Chief Wiggam's. While there were no leaks above the black plastic "U", there were leaks below, onto the optical ring, and eventually onto the top of the step filter.

Any leaks up there are basically unacceptable to me. The janky sealing system has to be improved. I think I'm going to try adding a collet to add a little compression above the white silicone, first. This should mate the ring tighter to the inner tube, and maybe bulge it out to seal better against the stainless outer wall. And if that doesn't work, I'm going to replace the white piece with something with o-rings.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of vertical clearance for this compression collet before the 90 degree radius bend of the 1/4" starts, so I will probably have to make a taller "lower cradle" to raise the whole "inner arm" up about 3/16". That's as much vertical clearance I have before the inner arm touches the top cover. Stay tuned and wish me luck!


Milo

 

[Mike Howard]

Well, still no love. I got the Hayes goop, and "packed" the area between the inner hose and the white ring. Then I applied some downward pressure to seat the 1/4" tube into its cradle. Excess goop pushed out the top, which I dressed with my finger. And then packed some more above it, just for good measure.

I did get a seal during a clean for about 15 minutes (until it lost connection to SBC and just STOPPED the cleaning job). This was late last night, so I just drained the machine and went to bed. This morning, I tried a cleaning session with Chief Wiggam's. While there were no leaks above the black plastic "U", there were leaks below, onto the optical ring, and eventually onto the top of the step filter.

Any leaks up there are basically unacceptable to me. The janky sealing system has to be improved. I think I'm going to try adding a collet to add a little compression above the white silicone, first. This should mate the ring tighter to the inner tube, and maybe bulge it out to seal better against the stainless outer wall. And if that doesn't work, I'm going to replace the white piece with something with o-rings.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of vertical clearance for this compression collet before the 90 degree radius bend of the 1/4" starts, so I will probably have to make a taller "lower cradle" to raise the whole "inner arm" up about 3/16". That's as much vertical clearance I have before the inner arm touches the top cover. Stay tuned and wish me luck!


Milo

I've never seen the type of leak you are seeing once the stepper arm has been rebuilt and lubed. Maybe the silicon tubing is damaged/wrong size/deformed/shrunk/etc... There shouldn't be any backpressure on that arm to force wort up and out of the stepper arm seal. I assume the answer is yes, but I gotta ask if the wort arm is completely clear and nothing is blocking it?

 

[Mylo]

I've never seen the type of leak you are seeing once the stepper arm has been rebuilt and lubed. Maybe the silicon tubing is damaged/wrong size/deformed/shrunk/etc... There shouldn't be any backpressure on that arm to force wort up and out of the stepper arm seal. I assume the answer is yes, but I gotta ask if the wort arm is completely clear and nothing is blocking it?

The fluid arm is completely clear. I ran some pipe cleaners in there. The silicone ring is not cracked or deformed. But you can see in the first picture that there is quite a bit of room between the silicone in its relaxed form and the stainless tubing that must be "taken up" by the lube. At best, it didn't leak at all. But that second cycle in the new morning, you could see a small bubble of liquid push through the lube and start to puddle up. I think with my collet that I can compress that silicone just enough to bulge it out so it contacts both the inside tube, and takes up that .005" and contacts the outer tube.

 

[Mike Howard]

Yea, that's a first for me. I wonder if this one was just a bad apple. Once you get a fix try to publish exactly what you did with part numbers and where you purchased the part. Might help someone else down the line. Good luck.

 

[Mylo]

Yea, that's a first for me. I wonder if this one was just a bad apple. Once you get a fix try to publish exactly what you did with part numbers and where you purchased the part. Might help someone else down the line. Good luck.

Well, I think I cracked the code... I'll talk through the photos from left to right. First proto parts were a bust. The radius was just too tight to get the parts to sit flush. I raised the second block as much as I could, and also thinned it out so it wasn't affected by the radius of the tube. I squeezed a few extra millimeters by countersinking the screw heads. The third picture is my collet, clamped on the to keep the silicone tube from moving vertical once locked in. Fourth picture is that whole piece lubed up. Fifth picture is the tube seated. Note there is still a couple of millimeters for the 1/4" tube to move down, compressing the silicone tube against the black "inner" tube" inside the stainless. Sixth picture is fully clamped. And the eight picture is me celebrating with a Guiness, that there is no leaks (for now, and hopefully not for quite some time).

I will post the .STL files to Thingiverse for anyone that wants to print them. I used PETG, because it's just a little more heat resistant than PLA.


Mylo

 

[stpauliboy]

Does anyone know if you can factory reset a Z machine. Or is there a way to unregister a machine from my Picobrew account? I am retiring my 2 Z's but want to continue to be able to access my kegsmart as long as the website functions.

 

[Mutant]

Does anyone know if you can factory reset a Z machine. Or is there a way to unregister a machine from my Picobrew account? I am retiring my 2 Z's but want to continue to be able to access my kegsmart as long as the website functions.

Good question. I plan on dropping my two machines off to be recycled at the dump in the next month or so.

 

[soulp]

@Mike Howard can I get a copy of the glycol instructions. Attempting to resurrect my Zymatic before I decide to give it away. It's been sitting still for ~2 years and I get error code #1 attempting to clean. Would the glycol also be the reason it doesn't pull any water from the keg?

 

[Mylo]

@Mike Howard Would the glycol also be the reason it doesn't pull any water from the keg?

No, that sounds like a pump problem. Maybe some particulate or dried wort keeping the head from priming. You could force some hot water through it with a large syringe, and see if you can get the diaphragm clean enough to start working and then give it a PBW deep clean (spare the filter basket).

Mylo

 

[Mike Howard]

@Mike Howard can I get a copy of the glycol instructions. Attempting to resurrect my Zymatic before I decide to give it away. It's been sitting still for ~2 years and I get error code #1 attempting to clean. Would the glycol also be the reason it doesn't pull any water from the keg?

I PM'd you

 

[soulp]

No, that sounds like a pump problem. Maybe some particulate or dried wort keeping the head from priming. You could force some hot water through it with a large syringe, and see if you can get the diaphragm clean enough to start working and then give it a PBW deep clean (spare the filter basket).

Mylo

Thanks for the response!

Would you happen to have any instructions or pictures on where to find the pump and where to insert the water?

 

[Mylo]

You might have to take the machine apart to really clean the pump - but I would start by putting some hot water in your keg, and maybe pressuring it with a little CO2 to push it through the pump. Once you get it flowing, you can depressurize it, and add some PBW. I have heard that the original polycarbonate plastic doesn't like to be exposed to PBW, so you might want to attach a hose to the stainless arm, and route it back to the keg during this cleaning process.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

There are numerous reasons you can get a Fatal Error #1, most likely introduced air into the suction line, followed by glycol. So it's always best to assume the easy ones first before digging back into the lower end.

Just to be sure, take your poppets, on both the keg and the connections, apart and check for obstructions. Also, recheck the filter. Make sure all the seals are good as I've found that they eventually go bad.

After that, put the machine in test mode and check for good pump circulation and temperature probe function. During cycling make sure you don't have any air leaks on the suction side. Use the "Test Keg Pump" and the "Test Drain Pump" when using a keg with at least a couple of gallons of water in there and no grains but all the screens.

To enter Test Mode, turn the machine off, then depress AND HOLD the rotary knob and turn the power back on. Wait until you see the logo and then release the rotary knob. To exit Test Mode just turn the machine off.

Hello Mike,
I have a zymatic that hasnt been used in a few years. When I try run a clean cycle or just the cisculate from the test menu, the machine will

There are numerous reasons you can get a Fatal Error #1, most likely introduced air into the suction line, followed by glycol. So it's always best to assume the easy ones first before digging back into the lower end.

Just to be sure, take your poppets, on both the keg and the connections, apart and check for obstructions. Also, recheck the filter. Make sure all the seals are good as I've found that they eventually go bad.

After that, put the machine in test mode and check for good pump circulation and temperature probe function. During cycling make sure you don't have any air leaks on the suction side. Use the "Test Keg Pump" and the "Test Drain Pump" when using a keg with at least a couple of gallons of water in there and no grains but all the screens.

To enter Test Mode, turn the machine off, then depress AND HOLD the rotary knob and turn the power back on. Wait until you see the logo and then release the rotary knob. To exit Test Mode just turn the machine off.

Hello Mike,
I am reaching out for help. I have a zymatic that hanst been used in a couple of years and it seems that the the keg pump is not working. Tried running the rinse cycle, cisculating from the test menu and the in tube sucks all the water out, but nothing is being pump into the machine. I am not technical, but any help is much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Greg R]

Hey all, been a while since I've checked in on this- can someone link me to the raspberry pi solution or a PC based solution? I haven't tried to brew recently but want to run a cleaning cycle and make sure it's good to go. If the server is still running that's great, but- I also picked up a used Zy and don't have the password so I'm hoping it'll work with a local machine solution.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[day_trippr]

I believe all roads lead to this Github page...

https://github.com/hotzenklotz/picobrew-server