PicoBrew Zymatic

[KPBrews]

I am guessing the poster was saying that a RO system in house actually does dump a lot of water that is high in stuff after the filtration.

No doubt, just clarifying/reiterating that RO water is generally extremely wasteful (as the poster was noting) and as such, should not be used for general cleaning and such.

 

[BrunDog]

Ya I was not thinking cleaning - that would be just plain stoopid. But, I will admit, after I clean my rig, my last "rinse" is RO through a spray bottle, then wiped, to make sure there are no mineral build-ups left behind.

 

[KPBrews]

Ya I was not thinking cleaning - that would be just plain stoopid. But, I will admit, after I clean my rig, my last "rinse" is RO through a spray bottle, then wiped, to make sure there are no mineral build-ups left behind.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[sablesurfer]

Taking my first pull of a brew from the zymatic. The pico pale ale. Interesting. Not the best recipe I have made.

Aroma is a bit bready/floury. Slight hop aromas of resin and citrus, but very light.

Taste is definitely starchy and almost too sweet. Lots of caramel at the finish, but little to no hop presence. More of a flour finish too.

My only thought is that this didn't convert all the way.

I hit the numbers for start and finish. I fermented at 64F with a bump up to 68F by the end of second week. The sample when I was kegging tasted a bit like too much US05, which is a flavor I do not like at all. That yeatiness is gone, but the beer just...off.

My second batch (an extract) just went under pressure today, so wont get a chance to try it for a week. My third batch is a lager that is on it's diacetyl rest next two days, then into a keg to lager.

 

[Brewinator]

Well, I finally got my refurb this week after almost two years of following this thread. I wasn't too happy that PB never contacted me with shipment updates, as we entered January, and when I finally contacted them they said, "oh, you never entered your address in your profile, so you weren't in the queue." Funny that I was in the charge my credit card queue though. Anyway, so much for December shipment and I lost most of my vacay brewing window, but it's finally here.

I also had the United Package Smashers red sign. It also had a lot of moisture, had to wipe the thing down with a towel when I unpacked it. Maybe left over from their sanitizing rinse cycle or leak test?

Anyway, haven't had time yet to hook it all up and run the leak tests. Hope it's in good working order and I can get to brewing soon after such a long sabbatical...going to read through this whole thread again (but skip the first 7 pages or so of haters ). Hope I can make some ostentatious and yummy IPAs.

 

[MTtoAZ]

Make sure to check that the gasket is in the housing for the in line filter. There have been a few of us that got the refurbished machines and had it missing and ended up with it sucking air and had water everywhere.

 

[truthrider]

I spent a few hours acting at a computer tech flashing the board and sending images back to PB support. The unit was a fail. A new unit was shipped 4 or 5 days after I contacted them with the error codes.

So far I've brewed one batch and ended up with a big mess. All of the connections seemed tight.

Now on startup, I get a 'wort sensor fault' as well as 'fatal error'.

Has anyone else had this sensor issue?

 

[Loodachris]

Has anyone brewed a German Hefeweizen on the Zymatic? 2 of my all time favorite beers are Maisels and Paulaner Hefeweizen and I have tried many times on my electric system to duplicate them with no success before selling it but never on the Zymatic. There are a few in the recipe library that look promising but wondering if anyone has brewed one of them or one of their own.

 

[sablesurfer]

Anyone try a lager in their machine? Yep, I went nuts and it was my third or fourth brew!!!

Next time, I think I will let the decoction steps go a bit longer, I am getting a bit of graininess from the sample.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7361958#post7361958

 

[stpauliboy]

Anyone try a lager in their machine? Yep, I went nuts and it was my third or fourth brew!!!

Next time, I think I will let the decoction steps go a bit longer, I am getting a bit of graininess from the sample.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7361958#post7361958

Yea - I think my second brew was a Czech style pilsner that I wanted to make for last years Superbowl party - came out great. I also did an Octoberfest for last fall and it was mighty tasty - wished I had done a double batch of that one.

 

[sablesurfer]

Yea - I think my second brew was a Czech style pilsner that I wanted to make for last years Superbowl party - came out great. I also did an Octoberfest for last fall and it was mighty tasty - wished I had done a double batch of that one.

Did you step mash at all? Any chance I could see the recipe? I am thinking I may have cut my steps a little short for the machine, but would have been fine in a regular brew set up.

 

[stpauliboy]

Did you step mash at all? Any chance I could see the recipe? I am thinking I may have cut my steps a little short for the machine, but would have been fine in a regular brew set up.

Pilsner mash schedule:
125 degrees for 20 minutes
140 for 30 minutes
158 for 40 minutes

Octoberfest mash schedule:
122 for 20 minutes
149 for 30 minutes
158 for 30 minutes
mash out at 170 for 10 minutes

 

[sablesurfer]

Interesting, I did 30 minute mashes too. I was just wondering because I still have a bit of a grain character to the aroma. Not malt, actual grainyness. I was thinking of bumping my 140 up about 10 more minutes, but maybe not. Hmmmm.....

 

[sablesurfer]

Working from home today. Have a truck load of dirt being delivered for some yard work.
In the meantime, got the Zymatic chugging away downstairs. Got a kit from LHBS, a spiced winter ale that sounded good. The shop even split the kit for me when I said the Zymatic did 2.5gal recipes!

First one sticking to the recipe, second one today will swap out corn sugar for real brown sugar, add a whirlpool hop of more willamette and use safale abbaye instead of nottingham.

And still working today...fun.

 

[Anyhowe]

And still working today...fun.

And that is the brilliance of this machine. You still do the recipe, determine the mash, hop additions, cooling and if you use kegsmarts, the fermentation as well. All you are not doing is babysitting to get your temps,and setting your phone to alarm you when to add hops.To me that is the least skillful part of the whole process.

 

[Goblism]

I am curious how tight of mash temperatures this device is holding. I have less and less time to spend on brewing and wouldn't mind a rig to make smaller batches but $2k is a lot of money for a brewing rig

 

[KirkMN]

I am curious how tight of mash temperatures this device is holding. I have less and less time to spend on brewing and wouldn't mind a rig to make smaller batches but $2k is a lot of money for a brewing rig

Mash temps damn near spot on and it maintains that very well. I don't even worry about it at all. Multi step mashes are extremely easy too.

 

[bmiller8]

Has anyone had good luck scaling recipes down from 5 gallon batch sizes, specifically stouts and imperial stouts.

I entered a RIS recipe using the 5 gallon recipe quantities then entered the target OG on the Zymatic recipe crafter to get quantities for the Z. I adjusted IBUs accordingly, but the SRM is way too high (target 53, but was showing 90). Could I adjust dark malts proportionately down until I reached target SRM and increase base malts to maintain target OG? My concern with just scaling down is that I'll pick up too much character from the dark malts.

 

[sablesurfer]

Has anyone had good luck scaling recipes down from 5 gallon batch sizes, specifically stouts and imperial stouts.

I entered a RIS recipe using the 5 gallon recipe quantities then entered the target OG on the Zymatic recipe crafter to get quantities for the Z. I adjusted IBUs accordingly, but the SRM is way too high (target 53, but was showing 90). Could I adjust dark malts proportionately down until I reached target SRM and increase base malts to maintain target OG? My concern with just scaling down is that I'll pick up too much character from the dark malts.

If this is an imperial stout, why are you worried about the color? I make all my RIS recipes to be tar black. I could care less about that.

Now, the other side effect of being "too" dark is that you might get too much malt bitterness/bite. Off the top of my head, not seeing what you are doing, I'd suggest scale the recipe, then make sure your roasted/black/darks are in the right percentage range to your base malts/recipe.

 

[jrcrilly]

Adjusting a recipe by juggling only OG works fine for small increments, but in cutting the points by 50% the software isn't likely to retain a decent balance. Better to use something like beersmith to adjust the recipe according to the desired volume while retaining the OG, SRM and ibu in balance. I have translated several of my existing larger batch recipes for use on the Zymatic in this way and they have worked well. One time I simply cut all of the ingredient volumes for a 5 gallon batch in half and it worked out fine - but it is better to do the conversion properly.

 

[bmiller8]

If this is an imperial stout, why are you worried about the color? I make all my RIS recipes to be tar black. I could care less about that.



Now, the other side effect of being "too" dark is that you might get too much malt bitterness/bite. Off the top of my head, not seeing what you are doing, I'd suggest scale the recipe, then make sure your roasted/black/darks are in the right percentage range to your base malts/recipe.

Yes, more concerned with too much malt bitterness/bite, not so much color specifically .

I've done what you suggested (scale back to make sure dark malts are in right percentage range to base malts). My concern comes back to the malt bitterness. Since I'm taking a recipe that was meant for 5 gallons and an efficiency of say 75%, what needs to be done for a 2.5 gallon batch with an efficiency of say 65%.

 

[jrcrilly]

what needs to be done for a 2.5 gallon batch with an efficiency of say 65%.

Beersmith will handle that, too - but by the time you get the recipe down to where efficiency is the only thing to correct you can use the OG adjustment to get there. On the other hand, when using my recipes that presume a higher efficiency I use the Z's high efficiency mash so don't need to adjust for that.

 

[bmiller8]

Thanks all..I did tinker with BeerSmith a bit on this but wanted to see if there were other approaches people were using. Will stick with BeerSmith

 

[stpauliboy]

I guess I just can't leave well enough alone. First couple of batches were brewed per Zymatic standard process and using a bucket of ice water for cooling. Seemed to take too long, was foamy and had a little mess with the water. So - time to pull out the immersion chiller from my pre Zymatic days. Dropped the chiller in the sink and circulated hot wort for the final 5 to 10 minutes of the boil - filled the sink with cold water and cut the chilling time down dramatically and eliminated the foaming - could even do a single pass and get the wort down to 70 degrees. I couldn't quite get comfortable with how clean the inside of the chiller was after having wort in it.

So the next adventure starts: Took a SS pot and added too connection ports with the bottom one being valved. The white ends are quick disconnects.


I wrapped some Batting around it for insulation and to provide an air gap for the retroflex.


On goes the Retroflex


Next is putting in the coil and I put a piece of stainless tubing to return the wort to the opposite side of the kettle.


Lid gets a notch for the coil tubing.


Attache it to the Zymatic, open the valve and start the brew.


At the end of the boil I run a regular 8 minute drain cycle and turn on the cold water to chill to temp. Disconnect from the Zymatic, add a drain hose and drain to a fermentor. It is also easy to do a whirlpool with the big lid and clean up is easier than trying to clean the keg. I did not put a lot of effort in to this prototype, but it works really well and changes would be more cosmetic than anything else.

 

[squared]

I'd definitely use that set up instead since i like to transfer my wort to a carboy post brew. This would be really easy to brew with and I'd already have an immersion chiller.

 

[Anyhowe]

Hey Stpaul. Love the ingenuity.
.
I have embraced the simplicity of a closed system with as few pieces to work with and clean as possible.
.
I like to brew with the keg, its clean easy and simple.
https://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-394Fjh7/A


I then cool with a 25 ft counter flow chiller that cools fast and is limited by the pump of the Z. 10-12 minutes. It is in the cupboard behind the keg and is attached with two quick disconnects, one to the keg out and one to the black Z quick disconnect. Click click turn on the water and walk away. http://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-QQ9qRmk/A

Disconnects
http://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-N2b7X3w/A

http://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-bNZ9WSB/A
.
-Then I put the keg in the keezer with the kegsmarts heated wrap to
ferment at any temperature and never have to move the keg again.
-After fermentation I cold crash for two days at kegerator temp by turning off the heated jacket, swapping the airlock for the keg lid and purge.
- After the cold crash open the lid, add gelatin put the lid back on and purge. Again I don't have to touch the keg.
-When done I pressure transfer to the smaller 3 gal conditioning/serving kegs. Remove the large keg and clean.
-Keep the kegs there for serving or move to my other Kegerator.
.
This pic shows the keezer set up before complete. Taps and gas were added. Given the size I can use a convenient 20# tank for all the purging and conditioning.

http://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-NPfmtFp/A

sorry photo challenged at the moment. Not sure why my smug mug links are not working. I can send to someone if they want to post for me. thanks

 

[KirkMN]

Anyhowe, put a /A in the end of the link location, something like this:

https://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-N2b7X3w/A

Just from searching the image location that looks like it should fix it.

 

[stpauliboy]

I should mention 1 other benefit that I found. Once I have the kettle filled with water - I trickle hot water through the cooling coil and by the time I have the step filter filled with grain and hops, I have 130 degree water. This reduces the heat to mash temperature to mere minutes and my boiler is more efficient than the Z. Nothing wrong with shaving 20 minutes off brew time! Next time I brew I am planning on bumping up my hot water temp from 130 to 140 to save a little more heating time.

 

[Anyhowe]

Anyhowe, put a /A in the end of the link location, something like this:

https://anyhowe.smugmug.com/Brewery/i-N2b7X3w/A

Just from searching the image location that looks like it should fix it.

Yea, tried. no go. Idk.

 

[sablesurfer]

I should mention 1 other benefit that I found. Once I have the kettle filled with water - I trickle hot water through the cooling coil and by the time I have the step filter filled with grain and hops, I have 130 degree water. This reduces the heat to mash temperature to mere minutes and my boiler is more efficient than the Z. Nothing wrong with shaving 20 minutes off brew time! Next time I brew I am planning on bumping up my hot water temp from 130 to 140 to save a little more heating time.

I am assuming you mean that water is just running through the system and maybe out into the drain? If I read that correctly, seems like a massive waste of water.
Also, your boiler may be more effective at heating quickly, but that is not the same as more efficient, and the heat transfer from water in the coil to water in the pot will make even that less efficient.

With my heating and water bills, this would be way more expensive and wasteful for the slight time savings.

 

[sablesurfer]

Yesterday was an attempt at a two brew day. Started at 10:30am when I flipped switch on first and done cleaning up after second by 11pm. So....it can be done, but it makes for a LOOOONG day.

First brew was a heady topper inspired IPA. Lesson here is that the Zymatic does NOT like huge hop whirlpools. The brew had one hop bag in the keg at 190F for 10 and another hop bag in the keg at 160 for 20 minutes. I also swirled the keg a few times each addition. I used the 'circulate' option under Help to transfer to carboy (has worked great in past) but machine clogged up 3-4 times (I lost count). Had to pull out the inline filter and scrub it clean, then resanitize, restart circulate...repeat a number of times. (DEFINITELY not the most sanitary approach, but hope I did it well enough.)

Really not sure how to avoid this in future. I believe it was starting to clog even during the chilling recirc as it got really bubbly in the return line before it clogged up completely.

(How to tell if it is clogged? The output is VERY bubbly and foamy and no real liquid. Also sound will change when no more wort is being pulled into the machine. I think it got a bit lower in pitch.)

Second brew was a @Yooper designed clone of Stone's Ruination. This one was pretty uneventful and it only had one whirlpool bag in the keg. I believe I had to pull filter and clean once during the transfer. The interesting thing was brewing a MO base malt and then a 2row base malt back to back was the wild difference in aromas. (I definitely like the mash aroma of MO. The 2row was very astringent and sharp compared to that.)

Clean up inbetween brews took right about 45 minutes to turn around and have second one going. That's not bad.

Also, the putting the keg into a brew bucket of 2gal ground temp water has been working wonders for chilling. Three changes of water get the wort down into sub-100F range and then I put it into fermentor to reach pitching temps. I pitch the next day and seems to be working great so far.

Another lesson I am trying to fine tune....efficency. My recipes in Brewer's Friend have to be set between 60% and 62% eff to get the same estimated OG that PicoBrew gives me. It kinda bothers me to be leaving that much sugar in the grains... :-(

 

[sablesurfer]

One more observation. Both brews had over 7lbs of grain, so not completely full, but pretty full. Watching the mashes through out the day I noticed that when grain has been converted it really changes texture visually from grain that is not fully converted. (You can't really see this when you pull it out of water, but floating around in wort you can see big changes.)
Two things stood out to me...1) There are trapped bubbles in the wort through out the whole mash. That isn't very good as air does not convert starch. 2) The striations we see are really the differences between top layers converted and bottom triangle of pretty much solid grain still.

If I thumped a finger on the step filter (don't tell anyone!) then the bubbles would kind of work their way out. Also once the mash is going, you can kinda press the front edge and get the grains to shift ever so slightly. This "seemed" to get more hot liquid down further into the grains.

The only thing I can think that would address this would be to have a pause feature. A way to pull the step filter, stir the grains up, and put it back in. Other than that, it appears that efficiency will stay really low.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

)

The brew had one hop bag in the keg at 190F for 10 and another hop bag in the keg at 160 for 20 minutes. I also swirled the keg a few times each addition. I used the 'circulate' option under Help to transfer to carboy (has worked great in past) but machine clogged up 3-4 times (I lost count). Had to pull out the inline filter and scrub it clean, then resanitize, restart circulate...repeat a number of times. (DEFINITELY not the most sanitary approach, but hope I did it well enough.)

Really not sure how to avoid this in future.

I started double bagging my in keg hop additions, for brewing and dry hopping, to avoid clogs. If you don't have enough bags I strongly recommend getting more. The difference is really night and day.

My double brew days have always been ~11.5 hours using the high efficiency step mash. More like 9-10 if I do single step. Recently my turn arounds have been quicker since someone gave me a second step filter setup, less than 5 minutes since I have the grain crushed and the keg ready. At retail cost for those components, however, I don't think it would be worth it.

 

[Siberian]

I have a question regarding this system for anyone who has one, admittedly I have not read through all 100 pages of the thread.

How much steam is being produced / how much boil off is there? I'm curious since this seems to be for all intents and purposes an indoor brewing systems if you need to take steps to vent steam from your house or if it's not an issue.

Admittedly I'm partially curious because from what I can tell this has very limited ventilation and "boils" at a temp not quite boiling which would reduce boil off. I'd love to use something like this for indoor brewing in the winter, but I'm wondering if I'd have still go through adding a bunch of ventilation to my house to handle steam production like with a traditional indoor e-BIAB setup. Is there steam? How does it escape? How truly open is the 'kettle' ?

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

No need to vent unless other(s) in your household don't like the smells of brewing. Almost no steam is released. The keg has a rubber cover and a foam trap that keeps most steam from escaping during the brew. There is also next to no boil off with this setup.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I don't agree entirely, there was enough steam to fog up my kitchen windows and sliding glass door on a cold winter night, but the house was relatively cool and dry.

 

[Denny]

re: chilling the wort for a Zymatic brew....I just picked up a Corny Pillar from JaDeD to use with my Zymatic. Less than 5 min. to chill the batch to pitching temp.

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

I would imagine that boiling a small pot of water on your stove makes a lot more steam. The Z was designed for indoor use after all. If you are able to cook in your house without having to open windows etc. I'm sure you'll be OK.

 

[jrcrilly]

I use my Z in the office and it doesn't seem to increase humidity noticeably. I have seen the figure for "boil-off" but don't remember it; maybe a couple of ounces? I have observed that taking gravity readings before and after the boil don't show any significant difference.

 

[Denny]

I would imagine that boiling a small pot of water on your stove makes a lot more steam. The Z was designed for indoor use after all. If you are able to cook in your house without having to open windows etc. I'm sure you'll be OK.

I use mine in my kitchen and don't notice any steam at all. My LHBS uses theirs in the shop and there's no noticeable steam.