PicoBrew Zymatic

[BlueWater84]

Wow - just went through this entire thread. I actually gained interested in home-brewing from this kickstarter campaign. I do have one on order (2nd production run) which I anticipate is still several months out. In the meantime I ended up purchasing conventional home brewing equipment and already have my first beer fermenting as well as a batch of cider fermenting. I have no idea if the picobrew will make a decent beer or not but it is amazing how negative many of you are toward it without ever having used one.

 

[TimelessCynic]

I have no idea if the picobrew will make a decent beer or not but it is amazing how negative many of you are toward it without ever having used one.

I get the feeling that a lot of Homebrewers put down processes that are markedly different than their own; probably out of an over inflated sense of pride. I know I do. Fact of the matter is if basic principles are followed one can brew beer a million different ways. If you fall in love with the hobby and you start without the automation, as you have, you may start to understand why people are soo negative about the picobrew.



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[johnsnownw]

Wow - just went through this entire thread. I actually gained interested in home-brewing from this kickstarter campaign. I do have one on order (2nd production run) which I anticipate is still several months out. In the meantime I ended up purchasing conventional home brewing equipment and already have my first beer fermenting as well as a batch of cider fermenting. I have no idea if the picobrew will make a decent beer or not but it is amazing how negative many of you are toward it without ever having used one.

If you read through the thread, then you shouldn't be amazed that people have concerns.

Spending $1300 on an as yet vetted product, when some of it's processes go against convention, is the reason people are concerned. Some people seem to take offense to the amount of automation in the brewing process, but not most.

The picobrew system has the potential to bring more people into brewing, this is a good thing for everyone. However, to not point out the possible issues with the process would go against the purpose of these forums.

The vast majority of people aren't going to see any negative repercussions from the adoption of this system. So consider that we, who have pointed out possible issues, are doing it because we have concerns about its functionality...not because we just want to hate on something new.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Spending $1300 on an as yet vetted product, when some of it's processes go against convention, is the reason people are concerned.

I'm curious and do not want to sift through the thread. What processes go against convention? I thought this thing just mashed based on a user specified time/heat schedule.


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[orangehero]

Yeah let's repeat the thread because you don't want to read! Can I be the shill this time?

 

[TimelessCynic]

Yeah let's repeat the thread because you don't want to read!

It's an old thread i read a while back. I need a quick synopsis of the 'goes against convention'. I remember something about their temperatures being a problem. Maybe something to do with the sparge. Your sarcasm is not constructive.


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[jpalarchio]

It's an old thread i read a while back. I need a quick synopsis of the 'goes against convention'. I remember something about their temperatures being a problem. Maybe something to do with the sparge.

From what I recall, temp only gets to about 180s so there's no boil and people have concerns about DMS.

I don't get all the negative attitude around this product prototype. I'm curious to see what people have to say once they've actually used it. Even then, I'm not their target demographic and it's out of my budget. There are plenty of things in this hobby that others use and I don't find necessary, I just refrain from buying them.

(Not a shill)

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I emailed them with questions regarding efficiency - got a canned response and replied with the same questions, a little more directly.

Here is what I got back from them:

Because this is a spargless system the wort efficiency varies, tending to decrease with increased gravity of the wort. A single step mash (no mash in, no mash out, one temperature) for 90 minutes will give about 58-68% efficiency on beers in the 1.058 on down range.

Adding in a mash in and rest for 20 minutes at 102°F and a mashout for 10 minutes at 172° F and a 120 minute mash gives about 64% efficiency at 1.093. The wort yield is about 2.6 gallons.

The starch conversion efficiency for the extended schedule is about 93%.

The grain container holds 10 pounds of grain, so can make an all grain 1.090 beer. Higher than that will yield less than 2.5 gallons of wort. For the very high gravity beers we recommend adding DME or or sugars to the keg after mash.

 

[johnsnownw]

I emailed them with questions regarding efficiency - got a canned response and replied with the same questions, a little more directly.

Here is what I got back from them:

That's interesting...a 10% margin. Thanks for the info.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

The margin is interesting and I'm not sure how I feel about where those numbers land (I've been out of the game for a while due to school) - can anyone comment about the effiency vs BIAB vs cooler mash run vs larger system? I know the values are variable. A 120+30 min mash is LONG, but of the system is handling the control and the duration- who cares??

1.093 is a plenty big beer, IMO. I really appreciate them providing values.

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[johnsnownw]

The margin is interesting and I'm not sure how I feel about where those numbers land (I've been out of the game for a while due to school) - can anyone comment about the effiency vs BIAB vs cooler mash run vs larger system? I know the values are variable. A 120+30 min mash is LONG, but of the system is handling the control and the duration- who cares??

1.093 is a plenty big beer, IMO. I really appreciate them providing values.

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Well, I can only comment on my system...which uses a 10G round cooler, and a drilled cake pan to fly sparge...I also mill my grain with a barley crusher grain mill.

Anyway, my efficiency for beers 1.085 (and under) is between 79-81% consistently. The biggest beer I've brewed so far was a 1.098 Wee Heavy and I had 76% efficiency...but that was before I had my own mill.

 

[Brewinator]

Jesus H Christ, the small-mindedness in this thread. :smack:

Sorry, but some of us don't have the BTU's, or the time to do it "your way," and for many of us, our favorite beers are almost impossible to get.

Who the #$%@!& cares what you tards think about how I brewed my beer if it turns out awesome?

 

[Brewinator]

This thing is lame and will fail. People get into home brewing because it's fun and rewarding. Some people will buy this as a novelty item, use it twice, and then it'll be a dust collector. I mean, what is the point of this thing? It would be cheaper and easier to just buy some craft beer than to waste your time automating the process and waiting for it to ferment.

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Says the person who has been brewing how long?

Fix your lame Android sig, then call people Luddites.

 

[johnsnownw]

Jesus H Christ, the small-mindedness in this thread. :smack:

Sorry, but some of us don't have the BTU's, or the time to do it "your way," and for many of us, our favorite beers are almost impossible to get.

Who the #$%@!& cares what you tards think about how I brewed my beer if it turns out awesome?

I'm wholly confused by your rant. How does getting your favorite brews come into play? This machine isn't going to produce a direct clone even if it does work as advertised. At best, it will give you a generic representation.

As to your BTU comment, well, this thing doesn't boil the wort either. So I imagine unless you don't have a stove of any kind, you'll be quite able to produce similar results.

Anyway, enjoy blindly accepting the sales pitch, I guess.

 

[NervousDad]

Looks like the Session will be have the home brewer of the year on this Monday and she will be demoing the PicoBrew.

THE SESSION
MON, MAR 10TH @ 6:00PM PST
Get ready for a loaded show this week, as The Session welcomes 2013 homebrewer of the year Annie Johnson to the studio. Annie will join the Brewcasters to discuss Mow the Damn Lawn, her American light lager that stole the show at the National Homebrew Competition and earned her the coveted title. Annie will also have her new PicoBrew Zymatic in tow - tune in and follow along as the BN crew takes this new beer brewing appliance for a test run. This episode will also feature the next Brewcaster Challenge update with Justin and Nate's schwarzbier recipes, this week's Beer News, and much more. Don't miss it!
888-401-BEER . BrewingNetwork.com/TV

 

[jaywhy]

Picobrew ran into production issues. First units due in mid April.

This argument will soon be settled


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[bford]

Can't wait to see how it does...

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Lotta hate being tossed around. I'm going to quote Kal from a different thred:

"
While neither is something I'd be interested in myself, I do think more interest in making beer yourself is a good thing for the homebrewing hobby in general.

The more people that are interested in making beer (regardless of how it's made), the better for all of us. Imagine a day when there's a LHBS to buy supplies on every street corner (like today's convenience stores) and every one of your neighbors talking about what they've brewed up last. Now that would be cool!

Kal
"

 

[jbaysurfer]

^sometimes I think legit criticism gets pigeonholed as "hate". I'm guilty of it myself. There is probably a "little" bit of "hate" getting tossed around on this thread, but in general I think it's an adult conversation with skeptics and optimists alike.

I think it's a bigger, more expensive, liquid, breadmaker and you can build a less obtrusive, more flexible system for far less money, but if people want it, more power to 'em.

I also share a fair bit of skepticism on the inherent processed being used since it flies in the face of some long time traditional thinking...but the converse is that maybe it's revolutionary and my thought process is the same as those who insisted Columbus' ideas about a round earth were folly.

 

[Warthogrugby]

I was lucky enough to get one of the first 5 preproduction units and I thought I would share my experience with the Picobrew so far.

First, let me preface that I have a 15 month old daughter so I haven’t had opportunity to brew in, more or less, 15 months. The whole concept of automating the brew process was enticing to me. It is a lot easier to justify 15-20 minutes of time vs 4 hours to the wife. I am also able to run a batch after work now with still being able to have dinner, spend time with the family, and put my daughter to bed.

I want to make great beer. I enjoy the brewing process, but there are still a lot of process variation inherent with an all grain cooler system. I think it’s funny that many of us strive to reduce this variation through DIY projects that can be quite expensive in and of themselves. With the Picobrew, I am able to hone in a desired recipe and know that any changes of flavor are due to the recipe itself and not because of process variation. Sure, I only get 2.5 gallons, but I think the volume is more than acceptable considering the time/effort/and ingredients needed. I can be more adventuresome with recipe crafting.

So far I have brewed 5 batches with the Picobrew. I can’t tell you how good it feels to have beer in my lines again after so long (in a sense of elation, not debilitating alcoholism&#8230. The tools that they have for crafting recipes are pretty cool too. You have full range to program your batches of beer in any manner you would like. It’s pretty powerful.

Also, fermenting in the Corney kegs has been amazingly convenient as well. Being able to push the beer from my fermentation vessel directly into my serving vessel is just a lot easier/quicker for me than dealing with carboy/siphon and keg.

I am extremely happy with my investment. It’s made it possible to make my own beer again.

 

[anthropod]

Do you have some pics? Thanks for the feedback. Any issues you hope they solve?


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[johnsnownw]

I was lucky enough to get one of the first 5 preproduction units and I thought I would share my experience with the Picobrew so far.

First, let me preface that I have a 15 month old daughter so I haven’t had opportunity to brew in, more or less, 15 months. The whole concept of automating the brew process was enticing to me. It is a lot easier to justify 15-20 minutes of time vs 4 hours to the wife. I am also able to run a batch after work now with still being able to have dinner, spend time with the family, and put my daughter to bed.

I want to make great beer. I enjoy the brewing process, but there are still a lot of process variation inherent with an all grain cooler system. I think it’s funny that many of us strive to reduce this variation through DIY projects that can be quite expensive in and of themselves. With the Picobrew, I am able to hone in a desired recipe and know that any changes of flavor are due to the recipe itself and not because of process variation. Sure, I only get 2.5 gallons, but I think the volume is more than acceptable considering the time/effort/and ingredients needed. I can be more adventuresome with recipe crafting.

So far I have brewed 5 batches with the Picobrew. I can’t tell you how good it feels to have beer in my lines again after so long (in a sense of elation, not debilitating alcoholism&#8230. The tools that they have for crafting recipes are pretty cool too. You have full range to program your batches of beer in any manner you would like. It’s pretty powerful.

Also, fermenting in the Corney kegs has been amazingly convenient as well. Being able to push the beer from my fermentation vessel directly into my serving vessel is just a lot easier/quicker for me than dealing with carboy/siphon and keg.

I am extremely happy with my investment. It’s made it possible to make my own beer again.

Glad you like it. How are you controlling fermentation temps? How are you cooling the wort? How do you think it's only a 15-20 min investment of your time?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[RadicalEd]

Saw these guys at NHC and they had some decent beer on tap, which was brewed on the machine. Not a hint of DMS, which was of course my largest concern.

 

[Warthogrugby]

Hey Johnsnownw,

For fermentation, I currently have my corney's stashed in a closet in the house. My next step is investing in a front loading freezer to better define my temperatures.

I've cooled the wart a couple of ways. The sexiest of the two was running the wort inline my immersion chiller and putting the chiller in an ice bath. Took about 15 minutes to chill it down to a good pitching temperature. The 'meh' way is having a sterile corny lid ready and sealing up the batch right after the boil and waiting to pitch the next day.

The invested time comes from the ingredients preparation. For cost reduction purposes I've gone bulk, so I am milling all my grain and weighing out all my hops. This is about 8-10 minutes total, but I'm able to pre rinse the machine while preparing everything. Then clean up is about 10 minutes or so. Like any process, I'm getting more streamlined.

I want to run a couple of batches of a lighter brew to see whether or not chilling vs. not has any impact to taste, because sealing the batch and pitching later is a hell of a lot more convenient. Especially for a later brew session.

 

[johnsnownw]

Hey Johnsnownw,

For fermentation, I currently have my corney's stashed in a closet in the house. My next step is investing in a front loading freezer to better define my temperatures.

I've cooled the wart a couple of ways. The sexiest of the two was running the wort inline my immersion chiller and putting the chiller in an ice bath. Took about 15 minutes to chill it down to a good pitching temperature. The 'meh' way is having a sterile corny lid ready and sealing up the batch right after the boil and waiting to pitch the next day.

The invested time comes from the ingredients preparation. For cost reduction purposes I've gone bulk, so I am milling all my grain and weighing out all my hops. This is about 8-10 minutes total, but I'm able to pre rinse the machine while preparing everything. Then clean up is about 10 minutes or so. Like any process, I'm getting more streamlined.

I want to run a couple of batches of a lighter brew to see whether or not chilling vs. not has any impact to taste, because sealing the batch and pitching later is a hell of a lot more convenient. Especially for a later brew session.

Are you not concerned about your ability to clean an immersion chiller when using it that way?

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase. I would have purchased a fermentation chamber before the Zymatic, but it sounds like you are looking

 

[mattd2]

I think my main concern (other than DMS) was cleaning and parts - I know they say they clean in place but can you actually take it apart to make sure it is clean every few months / give it a good clean.
Any feedback on that would be great Warthogrugby

 

[TimelessCynic]

Way of the future


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[Warthogrugby]

I flush the system before and after each brew. I've reached enough batches to where I need to do an actual clean. The web portal that manages your recipes and sessions prompts you. But the clean process seems simple enough. You pop a dish washer tab into a corny, set it all up, and run a pre defined clean process. I think so long as you're fastidious with flushing and regularly running the clean cycle between each 4 batches, you should be golden.

For the immersion chiller, I flush it out at the beginning and end of each session with the system. After the brewing cycle is completed there is a prompt that the lets you connect the chiller in line. It will stay at 207 for a minute or two to sterilize and then you submerge into the ice bath.

I just poured a really light brew last night and couldn't detect any off flavors or the such. My next batch will actually be a slight revision to the recipe to see which grain bill I like more.

 

[mattd2]

I flush the system before and after each brew. I've reached enough batches to where I need to do an actual clean. The web portal that manages your recipes and sessions prompts you. But the clean process seems simple enough. You pop a dish washer tab into a corny, set it all up, and run a pre defined clean process. I think so long as you're fastidious with flushing and regularly running the clean cycle between each 4 batches, you should be golden...

Check out these posts/threads and then reply if you still feel like a flush and a dishwashing tab clean every few batches is still good for you

I pulled it out today after I don't know how many batches. Surprisingly, it was still working!

What's weird is I always run pbw and saniclean through it for about an hour after each brew.

It looks to be rectorseal and caramelized sugars all over the element.

and

And here is what happens when you don't clean your RIMS element..... GFCI is a MUST HAVE for electric brewery's.... That or a couple of not so good friends to use as fuses....

This is after about 10-12 standard 1.056 all barley brews and 3 40% wheat lambic brews (15 gallons per batch).

 

[Warthogrugby]

Hey Matt,

From my understanding, wort is not in direct contact with the heat source. I believe heat is exchanged in a similar manner as a double boiler. Since it's not exposed to a direct source of heat, likelihood of scorching is significantly reduced.

It's something that I'll keep an eye on, but not something that I overly concerned about.

 

[Accidic]

Neat little toy. Expensive but neat nonetheless. Wondering how it'll play out in the long run and how much the price ends up coming down (if at all) though. Not sure I could ever bring myself to go that route but if you're brewing your own, I'd still think it's a victory in anyone's book.

@Wart,
Have you run into any issues with the DMS as other concerns were raised earlier?

 

[anthropod]

How is the web interface? Do you have any screenshots?

 

[Doctor_M]

Check out these posts/threads and then reply if you still feel like a flush and a dishwashing tab clean every few batches is still good for you

and

My brewmagic runs a rims system and after owning and using it for over a year I finally got around to inspecting my element to see how it was looking..... looked like new. I CIP with 140 degree pbw and that's it I agree though I don't think a dishwashing tab is strong enough.

 

[jwynia]

I spent quite a bit of time at the PicoBrew booth talking to Annie (2013 Homebrewer of the Year). She actually sent them a nasty email saying the machine couldn't possibly work as well as they said it did. They invited her to come in and brew on it. She became so convinced that she now works for them.

Anyway, the heating system is a heat exchanger with a glycol loop, so there's no electrical heating element in direct contact with the wort, which means there shouldn't be any stone build-up. It probably also means that beers that rely on kettle caramelization aren't going to work well in this machine.

I'm scheduled to get mine in about 2 weeks. After talking to them, I'm going to be chilling with a Therminator put inline between the machine and the fermenter keg. They were showing the wort routed through a copper coil chiller sitting in a bucket of ice, but I hate messing with ice for anything in brewing.

 

[mattd2]

...Anyway, the heating system is a heat exchanger with a glycol loop, so there's no electrical heating element in direct contact with the wort, which means there shouldn't be any stone build-up. It probably also means that beers that rely on kettle caramelization aren't going to work well in this machine...

Where did you find the information about the glycol loop? That just screams one more thing to service to me, and I really question if they would do it that way. There will still be "stone"/protein build-up - which a rinse and dishwashing tab will not get rid off. Throughout their videos they say they have taken the technology of a microbrewery and shrunk it down to countertop size - protein build-up is a major issue in food manufacturing plants, and is usually dealt to with the use of acid cleaners.

I also just watch the de-boxing video - one point the guy makes is how easy it is to use, but I don't see it as any easier than a lot of the systems built on here.

It does have one thing going for it - once you hit go, you do not have to do anything. I feel like that should be talked up more in their marketing, but what they are more concerned about is how "hard" home brewing is (by having one of the owners of the company list all the different terms/phrases/jargon he could think of.

Really I do not like the marketing of this product, it feels to me they are just saying home brewing is way to hard to do without our product - where all their product does is make it less time consuming (all though setup looked like a pain )

As it always was with this product - each to their own

 

[bford]

Thanks for the updates....


I really hope they do well.. and I hope the price comes down to under a grand in the future... at that point, I'll probably jump in..


Unless I hit the lottery... then I'll be buying a bigger, automated system... to fit into my new bigger house, with two rooms dedicated to brewing and fermenting..!

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I want to run a couple of batches of a lighter brew to see whether or not chilling vs. not has any impact to taste, because sealing the batch and pitching later is a hell of a lot more convenient. Especially for a later brew session.

Cool! Since you have one of few out there in the wild - any chance you can do a walk through of a brew "day" with a few pics and some screen shots?? I'd love to learn more - this system really appeals to me as someone with little free time and and seemingly less and less in the foreseeable future. I want to do small batches and try and nail down some recipes, learn about lagering, etc -without having to worry about messing up a 4+ hour brew session.

I've seen a lot of people criticize this as "just a wort making machine" but in the 40+ batches I made back when I was brewing I don't think I every felt fully in control of the entire wort making process. For someone looking for precision in the process, I think this is an excellent solution.

Looking forward to more input,Warthogrugby.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I agree, more pics and walk through of usage would be neat. I was skeptical about the idea, but so far the feedback seems positive

 

[Warthogrugby]

The next batch I do I'll document an post here. I'll shoot for the 4th since I was planning on revving up around 10:00am anyways. May as well be making beer too.

Any particulars that you want pictures of? I know Anthropod wanted one of the web interface.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

The next batch I do I'll document an post here. I'll shoot for the 4th since I was planning on revving up around 10:00am anyways. May as well be making beer too.

Any particulars that you want pictures of? I know Anthropod wanted one of the web interface.

I appreciate it! And I plan on doing the same... but revving up for it on the 3rd :rockin:

Things that come to mind are -
Web Interface - status screen/config, whatever is available!
Setup - filled grain bins, hop additions, etc. prior to hitting the go button.
Setup while brewing! I'm assuming it has a pretty small footprint.
Chilling process - you said you've done 5 batches and I know that I will (personally) not find the bucket of ice chilling acceptable. Lets see how you chill it currently.

Sounds like cleanup is fairly simple so that doesn't matter much to me.

If you happen to geek out a bit I would be really happy to hear your efficiency numbers and all of that, but you may already have those?

Excited to see a real world/in action review of the system. I'm excited about the Picobrew but can't help thinking about what could be done with a propane/NG on demand heater and.....? making an automated system (albeit significantly less portable.)