PicoBrew Zymatic

[amh0001]

Jwynia, I know his system is newer, but I think hes done around 5+ batches. I would hope its easy enough to dial in your target gravities, I mean 10 points is a HUGE difference.

 

[johnsnownw]

Isn't that all the more reason people shouldn't be super-upset about this machine's existence? If clean beer that matches the intended style is all about fermentation, then this machine is just a prelude to the real show.

But, if clean, nominal examples of the style DON'T speak to the ability of the machine to brew good beer, what does? It really should be about the beer. Obviously, the blind tasting of sanctioned judging has the best case to really answer the question, but, at this point, even the samples those of us have had really can speak to the quality.

1. Lack of flaws that derive from pre-fermentation process. I didn't get any, but am perfectly willing to hear from those with better palettes than mine that there are flaws I missed. I got no DMS, despite at least one of the samples I tried being mostly Pilsner malt. No diacetyl beyond what the styles allow for. No acetaldehyde, or any of the other flaws that would indicate bad mashing or boiling.
2. No beers wildly out of style for mouthfeel. If the mash schedules in the machine were screwed up in some way, we should get super-dry doppelbocks or chewy saisons. Clean, nominal examples of style indicate that the intended mash temps were hit, the enzymes kicked in as expected and conversion of the expected amounts of starches to sugars and dextrins happened.
3. Efficient extraction. Since none of the beers I tasted were way low in alcohol, we can see that the machine extracts reasonable amounts of sugars from grain. Given the example of overshooting gravity, it actually points to the machine being more efficient at extraction than at least one homebrewer who made the switch.
4. Appropriate bitterness. Nominal examples of style require beers that are not wildly under-hopped or overhopped. Given "normal" brewing makes it fairly difficult to overhop beer with standard processes, the risk of a machine (particularly one that sets the boil portion of the program below 212F/100C) underhopping is what we'd need to look for. So, beers that taste appropriately bitter (and the examples I tasted did) indicate that hop alpha acid extraction is working correctly.

Post-boil, while dismissed as not relevant in the quoted comment, these beers were fermented in a keg, so the fact they're clean, not oxidized, etc. indicates that the differing fermentation vessel doesn't cause major fermentation problems.

The only quality question I didn't have answered in my samples is how well late/aromatic hop additions work, since none of the samples I had were of the hoppy styles. But, I know that the sample recipes include a Pliny clone, so there have clearly been experiments done in that direction.

There are things we have to wait for answers (like the cleaning issues and any potential build-up of deposits, etc.) to be sure about, but "clean, nominal examples of the style" indicate that the machine makes beer as well as more "normal" homebrew gear. And, given how many samples at club night *failed* that test, clearly this machine is within the margin that actual brewing and fermentation skills vary between brewers.

Almost everything you've listed is up to personal taste, or contain complete unknowns to all but the brewer. The jury is still way way out on the Zymatic, and the only vetting that I will seriously consider will be first-hand experience brewing on the machine, and from many different brewers.

There was WAY too much shilling going on in the Zymatic threads around the time of, and shortly after, the Kickstarter campaign for me not to take anything the company had a hand in with a grain of salt.

I think you're right that the quality of the finished product that originated from the Zymatic will be up to the brewer, and the brewing processes that follow. Yet, that's not how the product was presented, and it's certainly something to consider when plunking $1700 for the machine.

As I've said, I have no qualms with the machine itself, just the presentation. I absolutely hope that the machine fulfills the needs of those that buy them.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Would breweries use this system for pilot brews as i read about before?

Anyone participating in this thread that have purchased and used the pico that owns and operates a micro brewery?


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[bford]

In the end... for me.. the ONLY thing that matters is does it allow the brewer to brew beer up to their capabilities...


We are early in the process, but I've yet to see any reviews or people crying about buying one and being fooled by the Kickstarter.... now I won't lie... I won't feel bad for anyone that gets one and doesn't put the effort into learning their machine. I expect a learning curve anytime I pick up something new to cook with or new technology. Heck, it took me a few tries to get down how much water to use in a rice cooker I bought last year. A super simple machine and super simple process, yet it still wasn't perfect the first two or three times I used it.. but it was edible.


For the price.. I don't see how anyone that doesn't have copious amounts of money to blow here and there.. would buy one...without looking into or asking some questions about the complete process of brewing beer... or already be a brewer...



I'm going to keep watching for more real world reviews... and HOPE that I get the chance to taste some beer brewed in one.... because in the end for me... tasting real world results... is what will be the leading factor in if I buy one in the future.

I hope it works great and does well. Time will tell.

 

[jwynia]

Some of the discrepancy in reactions is also due to the classic early/late adopter mindsets. Late adopters tend to buy products only when they've been proven to work so well there's little doubt to their value. Early adopters are much more willing to take a risk on an unproven product, hoping to get the potential payoff before other people do.

I am a software engineer and an early adopter by nature. I buy new gadgets all of the time. Many prove to not be terribly great, but some work great. At the moment, my work bag has 3 Android phones, 2 iPhones, an iPod Touch, an iPad, an iPad mini, a 7" and a 10" Android tablet and a MS Surface in it. I've got boxes of old Android phones back to the G1 from TMobile. But, I know people who just bought their first smartphone this year (and others who haven't gotten one yet and aren't planning to).

That distribution of people from avid early adopter to people who NEVER adopt a given bit of tech is perfectly normal and happens regardless of how good the tech itself is. The earlier an adopter a person is, the lower the bar of compelling evidence for high quality before they'll buy. They'll put up with tons of flaws in a system because it offers something that nothing else does at the time. If the device in question isn't too expensive, that bar goes even lower.

For me, the $1500 I paid to be in the first round of production wasn't that big of a deal. I realize that makes me sound like an indulged, 1st world *********, but it's true. Going to NHC cost me more twice that in lost billable hours. When people go on about how a DIY version is much cheaper, they're almost certainly treating their time as free. For me, there's no way in hell I could get a DIY machine with similar functionality with 2 days effort, which is what $1500 represents for me in my professional life.

At $1500, I required convincing that at $299 I wouldn't have needed. However, if it had to live up to the standards some seem to expect of it, I'd actually expect to see a pricetag more like $4999 instead. But, given the fact it's powered by software, it gives me an opportunity to tinker in an area I live and breathe in my professional life in a way that welding DIY brew stands gives those who have metalworking as their day job.

Is the marketing hitting some notes I don't really like? Yep. That's often a problem for products that haven't really found their legs in the marketplace yet. This one literally started making their very first production units in the last couple of weeks. Beyond that, some of my favorite products are marketed to groups I'm not a part of and are marketed in ways I think are stupid. I also have watched things I've built go through marketing and sales departments only to barely resemble what I created. So, I tend to give products the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how the marketing and sales paint a product and try to look between the lines to see what's underneath.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Heck, it took me a few tries to get down how much water to use in a rice cooker I bought last year. A super simple machine and super simple process, yet it still wasn't perfect the first two or three times I used it.. but it was edible.

Fill water above rice to the height of the first wrinkle on your pinky finger. Doesn't work if you do a less than a cup of dried rice. Wash rice by rinsing it and squeezing it in your palm. More times the better.

Anyhow......

I am pretty convinced the pico makes GOOD beer. A lot of people are looking for good beer.

Others are looking for EXCELLENT beer. But that comes at a heavy cost. Learning cost and time cost.





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[TimelessCynic]

However, if it had to live up to the standards some seem to expect of it, I'd actually expect to see a pricetag more like $4999 instead.

You hit the nail on the head. Exactly what I was thinking. I just didnt know I was thinking it until I read it from you.

Not only 4,999 but the foot print would be substantially larger and the product more complicated to operate and specific brewing knowledge required with that as well. Essentially a markedly different product than what it is.


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[mattd2]

Hi jwynia, and I'm not meaning to pick apart your reply honestly but a few points seemed out of place. Overall I agree with you (and I think most of my comments will further support your message).

Isn't that all the more reason people shouldn't be super-upset about this machine's existence? If clean beer that matches the intended style is all about fermentation, then this machine is just a prelude to the real show.

But, if clean, nominal examples of the style DON'T speak to the ability of the machine to brew good beer, what does? It really should be about the beer. Obviously, the blind tasting of sanctioned judging has the best case to really answer the question, but, at this point, even the samples those of us have had really can speak to the quality.

1. Lack of flaws that derive from pre-fermentation process. I didn't get any, but am perfectly willing to hear from those with better palettes than mine that there are flaws I missed. I got no DMS, despite at least one of the samples I tried being mostly Pilsner malt. No diacetyl beyond what the styles allow for. No acetaldehyde, or any of the other flaws that would indicate bad mashing or boiling.

I thought Diacetyl and acetaldehyde were fermentation byproducts?

2. No beers wildly out of style for mouthfeel. If the mash schedules in the machine were screwed up in some way, we should get super-dry doppelbocks or chewy saisons. Clean, nominal examples of style indicate that the intended mash temps were hit, the enzymes kicked in as expected and conversion of the expected amounts of starches to sugars and dextrins happened.

3. Efficient extraction. Since none of the beers I tasted were way low in alcohol, we can see that the machine extracts reasonable amounts of sugars from grain. Given the example of overshooting gravity, it actually points to the machine being more efficient at extraction than at least one homebrewer who made the switch.

You can make up for poor efficiency by throwing more grain at it, and I think from memory Picobrew were assuming a relatively low efficiency. From the example given it would approximately equal the expected OG if the assumed efficiency was 60% and the actual was 75%. I see no reason why it should not be any less than "normal", I see it as similar to the Brutus 2.0 concept and they get pretty reasonable efficiency.

4. Appropriate bitterness. Nominal examples of style require beers that are not wildly under-hopped or overhopped. Given "normal" brewing makes it fairly difficult to overhop beer with standard processes, the risk of a machine (particularly one that sets the boil portion of the program below 212F/100C) underhopping is what we'd need to look for. So, beers that taste appropriately bitter (and the examples I tasted did) indicate that hop alpha acid extraction is working correctly.

From my research alpha acids are isomerised at above 175°F, so there should be little bitterness difference between a beer that is boiled and one that is held just below boiling. On the DMS front (and this is starting confirm my change of opinion on the subject) - S-Methyl methionine (SMM) decomposes to DMS with heat and has a 1/2 life of 35 minutes @ 212°F, again I would not expect a great reduction in this decomposition at just below 212°F. DMS is a volatile, not soluble in water and has a boiling point of 99°F so any DMS produce should be driven off. Another source states DMS is produced at temperatures above 160°F (which is one of the "reasons" quick chilling is advised - but is most of the SMM is gone there will be nothing to convert to DMS). From these points I am happy to accept Picobrew's claims that DMS is not a significant issue (compared to "normal" practices)

Post-boil, while dismissed as not relevant in the quoted comment, these beers were fermented in a keg, so the fact they're clean, not oxidized, etc. indicates that the differing fermentation vessel doesn't cause major fermentation problems.

The only quality question I didn't have answered in my samples is how well late/aromatic hop additions work, since none of the samples I had were of the hoppy styles. But, I know that the sample recipes include a Pliny clone, so there have clearly been experiments done in that direction.

There are things we have to wait for answers (like the cleaning issues and any potential build-up of deposits, etc.) to be sure about, but "clean, nominal examples of the style" indicate that the machine makes beer as well as more "normal" homebrew gear. And, given how many samples at club night *failed* that test, clearly this machine is within the margin that actual brewing and fermentation skills vary between brewers.

So I am down to 2 major issues with the Zymatic - Cleaning and Parts (cost is subjective)

 

[jwynia]

I thought Diacetyl and acetaldehyde were fermentation byproducts?

You're right, of course. Are there any other off flavors that ARE mash/boil derived?

 

[bford]

Fill water above rice to the height of the first wrinkle on your pinky finger. Doesn't work if you do a less than a cup of dried rice. Wash rice by rinsing it and squeezing it in your palm. More times the better.

Anyhow......

I am pretty convinced the pico makes GOOD beer. A lot of people are looking for good beer.

Others are looking for EXCELLENT beer. But that comes at a heavy cost. Learning cost and time cost.







Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

If you have the knowledge and skill and the Pico hits its temps and stages the way it is supposed to... and you supply a good recipe/ingredients.... then making an excellent small batch beer shouldn't be a problem.... but I agree....

knowledge and experience are still the most important part of brewing an excellent beer.... there are just many tools to use to get there... good stuff.

 

[DrWill]

You're right, of course. Are there any other off flavors that ARE mash/boil derived?

Diacetyl and Acetaldehyde precursors are formed early on in the process. If you can eliminate the precursors there, you don't have to worry about the compounds forming during fermentation. I don't know how well founded the concerns are, but they're not merely a problem for fermentation.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Anyone else get/use theirs yet??

 

[MikeG]

Interesting article on the Zymatic: http://www.beerinfinity.com/an-in-depth-look-at-the-picobrew-zymatic/

 

[bford]

Thanks for posting the article...

SOme very good info there.... not excited that the price is going up.... I really want to get one of these in the future, but it would be a struggle for me to save up at the current price.. a price increase isn't going to help things...


Added cost of picking up a keg or three to brew and ferment with... it is pretty expensive... I should have picked a more lucrative career!

 

[mmb]

From a hands on at NHC 2014, it's an interesting product, but it is too "set it and forget it" for me. The sample beer from it was fine, the device was seemingly well designed, but it had a bit of soulless automation to it. I suppose if you don't like the hot side process, this would be a solution for AG brewing, but that was about it.

 

[bford]

Constantly checking temps doesn't do anything for my soul...ha.. but I understand what you are saying...


To me the heart and soul is the entire process AND end product.... from deciding what you want to brew, putting together the recipe, getting the ingredients, the brewing process, fermentation, bottling/kegging and finally drinking and sharing!

 

[rekoob]

Okay, wow... I just went through this thread start to finish.

I love the idea behind this thing and anyone that has put together a brew stand with any kind of temp control can't say this thing is expensive.
I've been brewing for 16 years and of course started on the stove and worked my way from there. Over the years I collected the items I needed to build a stand, when I had most of what I needed I picked up the steel and welded up a Brutus 10 clone (I did change the spec's) with three Keggles, two march pumps, PID controlled direct fired MT, PID controlled HLT, sight glasses, recerc ports, and so on.
I never kept track of the cost of all the items or the amount of time I spent building it but just sitting here thinking about what some of the items cost I am sure I am over the 1500 price tag. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
The fact is, if the Pico makes a beer you are willing to share with anyone that stops over then I'm guessing you made a beer worth drinking.
Would I buy one? you bet... If I had the cash to do it. That's the bottom line. My brew stand didn't come out of pocket in one transaction but if I had the money to spend on another item that would save me time making beer I'd do it in a second. I've only brewed four times this year cuz I work a second job on weekends (my choice) and it's hard to come up with the 6 hours to make 10 gallons. If I could make 2.5 gallons a few times a week... yup... I would.
I don't know if the Pico has enough "time" being used to know if it's worth the money, I know my brew stand will out last me and someone else will enjoy it hopfully as much as I do. Time will tell if the Pico has what it takes to be the real deal or not.
If you have one or are getting one, rock on! make beer, enjoy that beer and keep us all posted as how it's working in the long run.
Just do me one favor and start a new thread.

 

[jaywhy]

Look what Denny has to say about the system. This was on their FB page.

 

[moleary33]

I have read through the entire thread and now more than ever feel comfortable to move forward with the purchase. It boils down to this, I just don't have the time and this will resolve that issue and allow me to brew a few batches a week. I have a Therminator for chilling, old kegs ready to go for fermentation.. So look forward to increasing annual brew qty.

 

[stpauliboy]

The last update would have the 100th unit going out the door today. Anybody out there have their unit and willing to comment? I'm not expecting mine for another 3 or 4 weeks if they can keep production at the 25/week rate.

 

[GrumpyCat]

The last update would have the 100th unit going out the door today. Anybody out there have their unit and willing to comment? I'm not expecting mine for another 3 or 4 weeks if they can keep production at the 25/week rate.

I received my shipping notice today, I believe I was unit number 100, as I got the last backer slot for the 2nd pilot production run.

 

[kcmobrewer]

Can't wait to see what you guys think. This thing has caught my eye for sure.


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[bejazzpiano]

Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.

 

[jaywhy]

Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.

How can you figure that out?
I am still waiting on my unit. Best guess is that I am around 180.

 

[jaywhy]

Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.

How can you figure that out?
I am still waiting on my unit. Best guess is that I am around 180 in line.

 

[stpauliboy]

I received my shipping notice today, I believe I was unit number 100, as I got the last backer slot for the 2nd pilot production run.

Got an email today asking for shipping payment because they are shipping the "next tier" that includes me. I guessing that the next tier is the 1st production run and would be units 101 to 200. I also received an email yesterday with my username and password to the Picobrew server for recipe setup. Spent at least an hour looking at existing recipes and playing with making my own. It actually looks pretty slick and I'm working on a shopping list for ingredients.

Let's brew and all you people in the pre-production tier need to start chiming in on how it is working for you.

Cheers

 

[bejazzpiano]

How can you figure that out?
I am still waiting on my unit. Best guess is that I am around 180.

I'm not sure. I was given an invoice number when I preordered one a few weeks back. I was hoping that I could get an idea of where I am in line. My invoice number is #5493. I'm hoping I'm not 5493red in line!!!

 

[coffeenut]

We received ours yesterday. It was a group buy with coworkers for the office. We're in the Seattle area so one of us picked up in person. Won't likely try it out until next week though.

 

[jaywhy]

Got an email today asking for shipping payment because they are shipping the "next tier" that includes me. I guessing that the next tier is the 1st production run and would be units 101 to 200. I also received an email yesterday with my username and password to the Picobrew server for recipe setup. Spent at least an hour looking at existing recipes and playing with making my own. It actually looks pretty slick and I'm working on a shopping list for ingredients.

Let's brew and all you people in the pre-production tier need to start chiming in on how it is working for you.

Cheers

How much is shipping?
Where are you located?
Gosh, I can't wait to get mine. It's been almost a year since the Kickstarter.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.

I don't recall getting an invoice number, but according to the email where I paid my shipping fee, I was kickstarter id 5538. I backed the project in the last two weeks or so of the campain, but was lucky enough to grab a 2nd Pilot Production slot from someone who had just dropped out. I'm not sure kickstarter id is a good way to figure out how far along the order fulfillment is, I think the ks id is the order of backing the project which could be at any reward level.

 

[stpauliboy]

How much is shipping?
Where are you located?
Gosh, I can't wait to get mine. It's been almost a year since the Kickstarter.

I'm in the Twin Cities (MN) and shipping comes to $73.

 

[jaywhy]

I'm in the Twin Cities (MN) and shipping comes to $73.

Should've looked at your screen name
I am in S. FL. I wonder if it will be significantly different.
Not that it matters much at this point.

 

[anthropod]

I found some newly posted video instructions. They were very helpful to me.

http://picobrew.com/about/brewingvideos.cshtml

 

[kcmobrewer]

Anyone got theirs and put a batch through it yet?


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[kingbrewing]

I paid for shipping on August 27th and picobrew has not shipped my order. I was part of the 2nd pilot batch (< unit #100) so they are clearly shipping out of order with ~132 units confirmed as delivered in the last update. When I initially contacted their sales team they told me "We&#8217;re working out the last of the logistics as to how to ship to Canada" and on two occasions since have said "We&#8217;ll be fully resolved with the shipping issue early next week". At this point I suspect there is a greater underling issue (ie. Delay in obtaining CSA markings, tax issues with export,...). Its unfortunate as the pilot levels on kickstater clearly stated orders from Canada were ok.

 

[anthropod]

Ok.. For those with a piobrew, or access to more information, the listed features say beers up to 1.090 without adjuncts. Question. Say I was making a quad, could I add the syrup to the water, to go a little past 1.090?

Im thinking Belgian!

Right now I'm torn. I want to upgrade my brewing life. 2.5 Gallons for most brews would be enough. I still could do 20Gallon's on rare occasions with my cooler/gasburner setup. 2.5 would let me have a lot of variety in the pipeline.

I just want a better mashing setup than my cooler where step mashes are tough. So I'm looking at:
Picobrew
Blichman's Easy Brew (Electric, as I think I want the convenience)
Speidel's Braumeister

If I go Blichman or Speidel I will probably go bigger. Say 10 Gallon or 50L Just because the cost isn't that much more.

I like the set it and forget it when it comes to mash temps. Riding the burner is just not something I want to spend my time with.

 

[sniperd]

Anybody with a hands on brew test of this yet? In the sense of comparing the result of the pico brew vs the same beer brewed by your already all grain setup method, do the beers come out the same?

 

[anthropod]

Watching the videos, it shows the workflow as ferment in keg, then transfer to another for carbonation and serving. This may be better asked in another thread, but what is the average beer loss with that? I was thinking about a work flow for those beers that need a true secondary. Wish I had access to the picobrew forum. Trying to figure out if I could do quads with this thing.

 

[stpauliboy]

Watching the videos, it shows the workflow as ferment in keg, then transfer to another for carbonation and serving. This may be better asked in another thread, but what is the average beer loss with that? I was thinking about a work flow for those beers that need a true secondary. Wish I had access to the picobrew forum. Trying to figure out if I could do quads with this thing.

You don't have to ferment in the keg if you don't want to. I believe their purpose for including fermenting in the keg was to make it as easy as possible for new brewers ( or experienced ones) to brew and to minimize any additional equipment required. I ordered up a couple of kegs from them during the group buy they offered backers. I believe they cut the dip tubes 1/2 inch shorter to raise them above the trub and yeast so that that much would be left in the bottom of the keg after fermentation.

The kegs I have will be used for brewing (1) and serving (2) and I will use glass fermenters.

The last update from Picobrew has about 170 units shipped. I should be in the next 30 - woo hoo!

 

[ZymaticUser]

Hi,

I'm not a forum person, but want to add my two cents on this. I bought in to the picobrew kickstarter campaign early, with partners (it's expensive). We have had ours for a couple months now. As a group, we have been brewing together (and individually) since 2001. A partner brewed the included porter kit that came with the machine, and I have now brewed 4 batches personally, and am about to pass it on to another partner.

Though I appreciate the negative reaction this thing has got from a lot of homebrewers on this forum (those first few pages... yikes), I have to say I really like brewing with it. I for one, do not love the hotside of homebrewing. As someone else said, it does nothing for my soul. It's nice to hang out with friends during a boil, etc, but we all have kids now, and someone is always left alone over a hot stove while their wife looks on disapprovingly.

As I mentioned, I have brewed 4 batches on this thing. I also brewed the party porter recipe from picobrew, picking up ingredients at the local hombrew shop (one of my partners used the included kit before it got to me). The next 3 were my own recipes or clone recipes to learn how the picobrew process affects recipe outcomes. I will likely do one or two more this weekend before passing it off - probably using fermentation pails instead of the keg to ferment, so I have the keg to run the deep clean with.

With regard to process: it's almost as easy as they make it look. The "boil" in the keg is ingenious, as is the primary fermentation in the keg. 2.5 gallon batches are a little small for our liking, but it's allowing us to experiment with more varieties of beer right now - and to stack improvisations on recipes next to each other to see what works and what doesn't. I brew on the deck next to my living room, and with the picobrew watched movies with my daughter and my buddies throughout our brews. Normally I'd be chasing her away from vats of boiling wort.

Cleaning is more involved than I thought, but when isn't cleaning a *****? All the compartments, etc fit into a dishwasher as advertized, but the hop residue needs be thoroughly washed out of the mesh cages and takes some effort. Same with the inline filter. Overall construction seems to be sturdy, though only time will tell on this thing. That said, I don't feel it is an easily broken machine.

I also appreciate being able to monitor temperatures and progress on my phone. I actually found it addicting somehow, watching it do exactly what I programmed it to do.

I don't have a kegerator at the moment, but one of our partners does. So I have (and will be) bottling these batches. Remarkably easy with a CO2 tank and a spring bottom bottle wand. Not sure why I never thought of that before.

With regard to results: (the reason I find myself writing this tonight), I opened my first bottle of the party porter tonight to test. I am bottle conditioning the rest for a couple more weeks. It was as good as most porters I have bought at the liquor store (which is admittedly rare - as I prefer hoppy bitter beers). My wife thought it was one of my best brews ever (which says something, as she has happily been drinking my homebrew since the early 2000's). She also likes sweeter beers, so there's that. I detected no off tastes of any kind, and no infection despite being the second batch brewed on the machine. My brewing partner who brewed the same recipe but from the kit was just as impressed with his batch.

For those concerned with sanitation, I actually don't think it's an issue with this process. The brew is held at a screaming hot temperature and cycled through the keg and transfer tubes for over an hour. Anything in there that might infect a beer has to deal with near boil temperatures for over an hour, and then the wort sits in a keg at a very high temperature again, before cooling. It's not much different from a pot and the coils of a wort chiller, in my mind. I am happy to be corrected on this, but only by someone familiar with the machine. Of course, I am religious about cleaning and sanitation before, during and after every brew, (more than most I think), and I am on this machine as well. I just don't see how it adds additional concerns around sanitation that some have raised on this forum.

I hope that's food for fodder. Likely my last post, but I may update on how my other brews turnout.

Cheers,

MM