PicoBrew Zymatic

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I also just saw on their Facebook page that this device can easily be used to do sous vide cooking (they had photos of making sous vide steak by "mashing" for 3 hours at 135F).
Sure. But just to be clear, anyone with a brewing setup that recirculates and can maintain a temperature can do sous-vide. So basically any HERMS or RIMS setup.

All you need to be able to do is steep food in in a plastic bag at a specific temperature for a specific duration. There's nothing special about the PicoBrew Zymatic setup that allows sous-vide cooking as compared to other brewing setups. Many electric brewers are already doing it.

EDIT: Looking at their Facebook page I'll tell you one thing I think they're doing completely right: You see pictures of them drinking clones of Pliny the Elder, Heady Topper, a Rye IPA, etc. Smart. up front their target audience is craft beer lovers, not the BMC crowd. They may come later in the advertising (?) or possibly not at all given the difficulties in fermenting/lagering light lagers.


Kal
 
Sorry, wasn't in any way trying to claim it was unique in this regard. I just hadn't thought of using it for that and figured others might have overlooked the idea too.
 
It's certainly an interesting 'feature' to the PicoBrew - and given the size of it it can fit in the kitchen too where it makes more sense to d o SousVide cooking.

I suppose it also becomes a good selling feature to convince the wife or trick her too! Here's a good marketing idea for them: They should should sell it with an extra sticker you can put over the "PicoBrew Zymatic" logo that says "Pico SousVide Cooker".

"Happy Birthday Honey! I got you a sous-vide cooker!"

And then under your breath:

"Oh yeah, and I think it has some sort of secondary features too, one of which lets you make beer or something like that..."

;)

Kal
 
this has gotten my creative juices flowing to start planning my test batch equipment. I love my new setup that i made so i can brew 5-10 gallon batches, but im also working on new recipes and dont always want 5 gallons of beer. Im actually loooking to make something that can do 1-2.5 gal batches easily. And since I like to go overboard and make things fun have been working on a simple single vessel idea that would be mostly automatic.

Though Im trying to use similar equipment that I own so I can do one control box for both setups
 
It seems like most of the picobrew criticism here is because it is too automated. I have drooled over some of the amazing automated brew systems on hbt. I personally brew on a gravity fed system with zero automation. I don't think you automated brewers are cheaters.

My Dad (not a homebrewer) shared the picobrew article with me a couple days ago. He is thinking about buying one. He sees the 6 hour process I go through for a batch of beer and doesn't get it. I think he sees picobrew as an opportunity to share a hobby with me. I am not in a place in my life where spending $1500 on a beermaker is a possibility. I figure it is a win win for me. I will have a hobby to share with my Dad, or he will get tired of it after 2 batches and give it to me.
 
Looks like they got there funding. Those people sure DONT get much for the price. I'll stick to my 10g all grain, 3-tap perlick keezer, brew system any day. My system hasn't cost me $1,500.00 and is sure more enjoyable with all my buddies over on brew day than pushing a button! 24 beers don't last that long! Cheers!

And this will be my dessert!
[ame]http://youtu.be/XQni3wb0tyM[/ame]
 
Love the idea of this, seems perfect for those with limited space and/or time. Also seems like a great way to have a pilot system for new or experimental recipes in a pro-setup.

Two major hangups for me though -

50-65% efficiency? Come on.

Price. This seems like an $800-$1000 type of tool. For the $1599 price tag (before shipping), a guy could piece together a pretty decent 10+ gallon eHerms or RIMS setup with temp control, and put this system to shame. Lower the price and they might be on to something.

That being said, I'm anxiously awaiting some genuine reviews from people using this bad boy.
 
I don't doubt there is plenty of clever engineering in it, and the idea of using the keg as both water source and final vessel is a very, very good one.

Having said that I wonder if certain styles of beer are off limits seeing as it does not boil to get rid of DMS.
 
It seems like most of the picobrew criticism here is because it is too automated. I have drooled over some of the amazing automated brew systems on hbt. I personally brew on a gravity fed system with zero automation. I don't think you automated brewers are cheaters.

My Dad (not a homebrewer) shared the picobrew article with me a couple days ago. He is thinking about buying one. He sees the 6 hour process I go through for a batch of beer and doesn't get it. I think he sees picobrew as an opportunity to share a hobby with me. I am not in a place in my life where spending $1500 on a beermaker is a possibility. I figure it is a win win for me. I will have a hobby to share with my Dad, or he will get tired of it after 2 batches and give it to me.

I don't really have a problem if people (like your Dad) find a reason to buy this. But to compare people getting into brewing with the fully automated brewers you see on HBT is missing one crucial thing....the HBT auto-brewers learned how to make beer before they automated their systems. They actually learned the craft.

Again, it's fine if anyone likes this for whatever reason they like it, but if new wanna be brewers start on this system, and can't brew on any other system, I question whether they're learning the craft at all. Brewing is about process, not recipes.
 
I don't really have a problem if people (like your Dad) find a reason to buy this. But to compare people getting into brewing with the fully automated brewers you see on HBT is missing one crucial thing....the HBT auto-brewers learned how to make beer before they automated their systems. They actually learned the craft.

Again, it's fine if anyone likes this for whatever reason they like it, but if new wanna be brewers start on this system, and can't brew on any other system, I question whether they're learning the craft at all. Brewing is about process, not recipes.

How are the not learning how to make beer? They are formulating recipe, setting the mash temp and fermenting the wort.

Beer is all about sanitation, fermentation and then recipe IMHO. How a brewer produces pre boil wort really doesn't matter. Whether it is from a pre-boiled extract kit,partial mash or all grain. A good beer is all about the fermentation and the sanitation.
 
How are the not learning how to make beer? They are formulating recipe, setting the mash temp and fermenting the wort.

Beer is all about sanitation, fermentation and then recipe IMHO. How a brewer produces pre boil wort really doesn't matter. Whether it is from a pre-boiled extract kit,partial mash or all grain. A good beer is all about the fermentation and the sanitation.

I was pretty specific to say I had questions about whether learning the craft, as opposed to "they aren't learning to make beer".

Beer is about process to me. Craftsmanship means something to me beyond pushing a button, and this system absolutely does NOT require one to "formulate a recipe" (no system does), but it's target market is certainly more likely to go in that (shortcut/kit) direction.

"Sanitation, fermentation then recipe" is a severe oversimplification, but then again, this neat little gadget appears to be most targeted to those looking for just such simplification.

I think it's obvious, but since it can't hurt, I'll state it: this is my opinion.
 
I'm surprised not to see more skepticism here. Putting brewing as an "art" aside, there are some major issues with this thing.

DMS:

Their claim is essentially that this system magically doesn't produce any, and even if it did, the "racking" process is capable of removing it. This is ridiculous.

Clean-up/Maintanance:

Not as simple as they seem to be claiming. (Some of you touched upon this)

Cost to beer ratio:

Terrible, but I suppose that is a personal concern.

Pro-brewer backing:

None of the quotes from pro-brewers imply that they actually tried the finished product.

Lastly, this product is also being discussed over at beeradvocate.com. In that discussion, at least 3 shills have posted comments about the product. That's pretty underhanded if you ask me. The least they could do, if they're going to take the time to comment, is answer some of our concerns.

Anyway, skepticism is a good thing, and there is a lot to be skeptical about.
 
It's funny to see these arguments that using this automated wort making machine is not really brewing. You formulate the recipe yourself, add the crushed malt and hops and select the exact mash temps and mash schedule that you want and you get wort based on your exact specs. Everything else is the same as a normal brew process. So let's compare using this machine to being an extract brewer where you get a can of pre-made concentrated wort. Which one is closer to real brewing?
It's definately real brewing in my mind, but still won't buy it for several reasons....cost, no 5 gal batch, no full boil, questionable dms removal, more to cleaning than meets the eye, no automated chilling, lousy efficiency (50-60%). It's a nice concept, but needs a lot of fine tuning.
 
It's funny to see these arguments that using this automated wort making machine is not really brewing. You formulate the recipe yourself, add the crushed malt and hops and select the exact mash temps and mash schedule that you want and you get wort based on your exact specs. Everything else is the same as a normal brew process. So let's compare using this machine to being an extract brewer where you get a can of pre-made concentrated wort. Which one is closer to real brewing?
It's definately real brewing in my mind, but still won't buy it for several reasons....cost, no 5 gal batch, no full boil, questionable dms removal, more to cleaning than meets the eye, no automated chilling, lousy efficiency (50-60%). It's a nice concept, but needs a lot of fine tuning.

What leaped out at me (after the price) was that it does nothing in the brewing process past the (non boiling) point. There is so much more to brewing than just mashing and boiling! And a huge volume of posts on this site revolve around post boil problems.
 
That's a neat toy, I probably won't buy one since my pilot system is a stainless pot I already owned and a homedepot paint bag :p But I still think it's neat. However, am I the only one who saw the tag line and thought 'I wonder if they're using a peltier for ferm temp control'? I was a little disappointed that you're still on your own on that front. The 208 thing interests me since I've been pondering brewing a small batch of black IPA without boiling (basically set my heat tape RIMs to 210 and let it rock for 90 minutes), I'm not sure I believe that you can't do it despite Jamil's experience.
 
I'm surprised not to see more skepticism here. Putting brewing as an "art" aside, there are some major issues with this thing.

DMS:

Their claim is essentially that this system magically doesn't produce any, and even if it did, the "racking" process is capable of removing it. This is ridiculous.

That's not what they are claiming. They say "When the liquid is dropped into the step filter for the boil stage, there is plenty of opportunity for the DMS precursors to escape."

They seem to refer to the place where the hops are placed as the step filter. So to me I interpret them as saying that the near boiling water is placed into the holder, and that has places for vapor to escape. To me that seems to make sense. If they are moving the liquid 100% of the time through that container with an open top, then there should be time for a good deal of dms to volatilize off.
 
That's not what they are claiming. They say "When the liquid is dropped into the step filter for the boil stage, there is plenty of opportunity for the DMS precursors to escape."

They seem to refer to the place where the hops are placed as the step filter. So to me I interpret them as saying that the near boiling water is placed into the holder, and that has places for vapor to escape. To me that seems to make sense. If they are moving the liquid 100% of the time through that container with an open top, then there should be time for a good deal of dms to volatilize off.

My concern is they hold the wort at 208°F where DMS boils off at 210° (according to HBT Wiki but Wikipedia has it at 106°F so maybe this isn't an issue)
 
That was my take too. They weren't talking about "racking" as the movement that allowed DMS out, but as the hot liquid is pumped through those hop baskets at the back. If it circulates often enough and with the right surface/air ratio, it actually might volatilize off *easier* than in a kettle.

Either way, my first batch on it is going to be either 100% Pilsner malt or close to it to test out the DMS potential.
 
I did see an additional video (not on the Kickstarter) where the founder mentioned that the 208F could be adjusted, so I'm assuming 210F would be possible.
 
mattd2 said:
My concern is they hold the wort at 208°F where DMS boils off at 210° (according to HBT Wiki but Wikipedia has it at 106°F so maybe this isn't an issue)

I saw that too... Wikipedia... But I just re-watched a basic brewing video where they were making James Spencer's sour beer at a commercial brewery. They were souring it in the mash tun and it at least started it above 106 and they talked about all the DMS that went away when they boiled. I've never experienced DMS in my homebrew so I don't know a lot about it.
 
My concern is they hold the wort at 208°F where DMS boils off at 210° (according to HBT Wiki but Wikipedia has it at 106°F so maybe this isn't an issue)

Yeah that's my concern too. Maybe a longer time at 208 would be enough? It would increase hop utilization too.
 
Well, I guess that answers that question. Plus I can't see how this machine can possibly keep the wort at near boiling temps without having some kind of exhaust system, otherwise it would just build pressure.

It's got vents, mentioned in several of the FAQ entries.
 
http://www.mbaa.com/searchcenter/pages/Results.aspx?k=DMS

You can read a few of the abstracts above, to get some understanding of the issues surrounding DMS removal. It doesn't give you the whole picture, but pretty much gives you an idea of how the Pico system doesn't address any issues related to DMS, since their process doesn't include:

Boiling
Cooling
Proper Ventilation
 
http://www.mbaa.com/searchcenter/pages/Results.aspx?k=DMS

You can read a few of the abstracts above, to get some understanding of the issues surrounding DMS removal. It doesn't give you the whole picture, but pretty much gives you an idea of how the Pico system doesn't address any issues related to DMS, since their process doesn't include:

Boiling
Cooling
Proper Ventilation

You didn't address the data that has actually been posted. In fact some of the links that you posted directly contradict what you're trying to say.

Boiling at 212 isn't necessary since DMS will boil off way before 212F. 99 F is all that's needed. To get DMS to volatilize you need ventilation and 99F. Moving the liquid and giving more surface area will increase the rate at which DMS boils off.

One of the more recent comments by PicoBrew addresses the ventilation and movement:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia/comments

Wort spraying a screen at 208F should give everything needed to remove DMS. In fact that's very similar to the wort striping that's discussed in the articles that you linked; where gasses are passed though the heated (but not boiling) wort to encourage the gas phase dms to separate.

Here are some other things that separate DMS from wort without boiling:

So for me that leaves cooling as the final problem this so that the little bit left in the keg after boiling isn't re-absorbed. But I don't think that it's a fatal flaw.
 
You didn't address the data that has actually been posted. In fact some of the links that you posted directly contradict what you're trying to say.

Boiling at 212 isn't necessary since DMS will boil off way before 212F. 99 F is all that's needed. To get DMS to volatilize you need ventilation and 99F. Moving the liquid and giving more surface area will increase the rate at which DMS boils off.

This is assuming that it all boils off, and doesn't condense on cooler parts of the machine...and since the venting is limited on the machine, I should think this would still be a concern.

One of the more recent comments by PicoBrew addresses the ventilation and movement:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia/comments

Wort spraying a screen at 208F should give everything needed to remove DMS. In fact that's very similar to the wort striping that's discussed in the articles that you linked; where gasses are passed though the heated (but not boiling) wort to encourage the gas phase dms to separate.

Here are some other things that separate DMS from wort without boiling:

It's not that similar, the articles are describing strippers that are more than just a mesh screen, as are the links you posted. I would also mention that all of the temps I've seen at atmospheric pressure are 100-103°C...which is higher than 208F. (This may not be an important point of contention, however).
 
I think there are good uses for this, I think building a recipe with varying grains can be awesome. But I think it's pricepoint is astronomical for most homebrewers to consider. Think it's a nifty idea but needs lower pricepoint for sure.
 
I backed the project and will receiving mine in April 2014.
The price was off-putting but my wife pushed to get it due to all the time it would save.
Looks like they've really done their tinkering and testing and the fact that Chris White was in the video reassured me that they are legit.
If I need to make bigger batches, I'll just run it a few times consecutively.
 
Back
Top