pH of water is greater than 8.0

[InspectorJon]

Get your brewing water analysed.

I am trying like hell to avoid that.

You have asked a question about water chemistry. If you do not get your water analyzed or find some other way of knowing what is in your water then the only other rout you have for water chemistry adjustment is trial and error with lots of time, grain (or extract) and hopefully improving beer. Another option is to start with RO or distilled water and work from there. You don't have to pay for analysis but you do have to pay for water.

When I first started looking into water chemistry I read the various articles and posts on the subject and my head would spin and my eyes glazed over. I have no chemistry background, not even from high school. I persisted in reading and found my water supplier's water report on line (for free). Each time I read something more on the subject it made more sense. I read this thread because i thought I might pick up something new or that it would reinforce what I do know and help me understand the subject better.

There are several suggestions here on how to learn more about your water. Asking about adjusting your water without knowing what is in it is like asking why my bread isn't coming out good and all we know is that you use flour. What kind of flour and what do you combine with that flour?

 

[mlandon98]

In most states, there is a county extension service (or by some other name). They are often connected to a major university. Well water sample analysis is usually offered with a charge of zero to a modest few dollars. Look into it to see if these services exist in your

You have asked a question about water chemistry. If you do not get your water analyzed or find some other way of knowing what is in your water then the only other rout you have for water chemistry adjustment is trial and error with lots of time, grain (or extract) and hopefully improving beer. Another option is to start with RO or distilled water and work from there. You don't have to pay for analysis but you do have to pay for water.

When I first started looking into water chemistry I read the various articles and posts on the subject and my head would spin and my eyes glazed over. I have no chemistry background, not even from high school. I persisted in reading and found my water supplier's water report on line (for free). Each time I read something more on the subject it made more sense. I read this thread because i thought I might pick up something new or that it would reinforce what I do know and help me understand the subject better.

There are several suggestions here on how to learn more about your water. Asking about adjusting your water without knowing what is in it is like asking why my bread isn't coming out good and all we know is that you use flour. What kind of flour and what do you combine with that flour?

Let's not forget that this thread was about reducing the pH of alkaline water safely without excessive amounts of acid. And according to people on my other post, the off-taste of my beer is almost certainly the result of high fermentation temperature. I will eventually test my water but I do not think that ion concentrations are a huge problem. Like someone said (I think the beermeister), almost all variables in beer have allowances, temperature does not.

Edit: I have determined since I posted this that my water is not excessively alkaline. Also I thought that pH and alkalinity were related but somehow separate. But any effects of alkalinity are supposedly mitigated by reducing the pH

 

[z-bob]

Try using Kveik yeast to eliminate the temperature thing. Kveik is like honeybadger; it don't care.

You also might have more than one unrelated problem and they are exacerbating each other.

 

[IslandLizard]

according to people on my other post, the off-taste of my beer is almost certainly the result of high fermentation temperature.

High ferm temps can definitely be an important factor in off flavors, which can manifest themselves in many different ways.

Re: water analysis:
You can call your water company (which provides your tap water) and ask for a detailed mineral report. Many have it posted online, but often the minerals we brewers are interested in, are missing. Give their quality control dept. a call, they have those numbers. Also ask how much they fluctuate with seasons, or other climate events.

Glacier water, as it comes out of machines at supermarkets, hardware stores, etc.?
That's supposed to be Reverse Osmosis water, but they may add a little bit of minerals back into it, increasing pH somewhat. You'd need to find out. A (cheap, $12-20) TDS meter will tell you the total mineral content quickly. Anything under 20-30 TDS is very fine for brewing, and needs very low adjustments for Pale beers, if any.

Here in the east, many Walmarts have Primo machines, very similar.

Again, water pH is not significant by itself. It's dissolved minerals (mostly those adding to the alkalinity) that make it resists change of pH in your various brewing processes.

 

[mlandon98]

You also might have more than one unrelated problem and they are exacerbating each other.

My biggest fear.

 

[mlandon98]

High ferm temps can definitely be an important factor in off flavors, which can manifest themselves in many different ways.

I boiled the glacier water and there was some white calcium residue afterwards. It was much less than in my tap water but that means there are ions added. Not to mention, the filters on those machines wear out so unless you use it right after it's serviced you'll get unexpected dissolved things.

Besides a rubber taste, how does high temperature effect the beer?

 

[IslandLizard]

Besides a rubber taste, how does high temperature effect the beer?

You mean, how high fermentation temps affect beer? Big time, and not in a good way!

Yeast selection and associated fermentation temps are among the most important parameters influencing beer flavor and aroma. If not solely the most important ones, all other variables remaining the same.

The optimum ferm temps (or a short range of temps) highly depends on the yeast strain used, and the desired outcome. For example, Saison yeasts will lean more character (which is desirable for a Saison style) when fermented toward the higher temps in their range.

Allowing the beer to ferment at temps too high (for the strain used), the yeast will go rampant, binging on the fermentables. She will pump out a plethora of higher order (fusel) alcohols and other byproducts in large amounts. Those are non-desirable flavors and aromas, and often referred to as "rocket fuel."

Mind, fermentation is an exothermic process, which means, it creates/produces heat. So at higher temps, fermentation will be faster, creating more heat, thus fermenting faster again... etc. That's why one should control ferm temps inside a narrow, chosen range, to prevent them from going rampant and rising (too high).

 

[Yooper]

I know, I have already used the word alkalinity 6 times or so in this thread. Let's not beat a dead horse here.

Coincidence

One way to guestimate alkalinity is a simple aquarium test, about $5 at Walmart. It won't give you everything you need (calcium, sulfate, calcium chloride, sodium) but I use it to see if my RO water filter is working properly. One drop from the reagent confirms that it is. You can try that- but your mash pH of 8 is immaterial as it could simply have absorbed CO2 by the water sitting out.

 

[z-bob]

One way to guestimate alkalinity is a simple aquarium test, about $5 at Walmart. It won't give you everything you need (calcium, sulfate, calcium chloride, sodium) but I use it to see if my RO water filter is working properly. One drop from the reagent confirms that it is. You can try that- but your mash pH of 8 is immaterial as it could simply have absorbed CO2 by the water sitting out.

Absorbing CO2 would drive the pH down (to 6 or high-5's), not up to 8. But it's true that the pH of 8 doesn't mean much without knowing how much carbonate or bicarbonate.

How about adding a few ounces of acid malt to the mash and see what happens? Seems like a low-risk test. Trial and error doesn't always mean lots and lots of iterations to find something that works.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ward Labs has a brewing water test kit for $45, they send you the supplies and you ship them the sample. A lot cheaper than those LaMotte at-home test kits.
https://www.wardlab.com/product/water-test-kit/

You don't even need the brewing water test. I have no idea why people want the couple extra tests that are included. All you need is the

W-4. Livestock Suitability​

$23.25 USD

Just send the water in a small drinking water bottle and a check for $23.25.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

One way to guestimate alkalinity is a simple aquarium test, about $5 at Walmart. It won't give you everything you need (calcium, sulfate, calcium chloride, sodium) but I use it to see if my RO water filter is working properly. One drop from the reagent confirms that it is. You can try that- but your mash pH of 8 is immaterial as it could simply have absorbed CO2 by the water sitting out.

Guestimate? IME those drop tests are pretty reliable. As you mentioned they are cheap and also very easy to use. Actually I don't really unterstand why they aren't more popular among homebrewers. They are more valuable than a pH-meter, IMHO, which I do also have, but could almost do without in the meantime. Those tests have become an essential part of my brewing water adjustements, because my water supply is extremely variable with respect to hardness/alkalinity (they blend water from two sources with starkly different profiles). Needless to say, a single water analysis/report would be totally useless in my case (and I suspect I am not the only one in the world who is getting tap water with variable chemical profiles). Given that I did not want to go the distilled/RO water route, I now measure the alkalinity of my water with one of those drop tests before each brew day. I've seen alkalinity values ranging between 150 and 260 ppm, and everything inbetween. Then I plug the value in my calculator (Bru'n Water), and I'll know exactly how much acid I need to add to achieve a given target mash pH. I was able to hit my mash pH ballpark very consistently even with those extremely variable starting alkalinity values. So I concluded than both the alkalinity tests and the water calculator must be pretty accurate.

 

[Yooper]

Guestimate? IME those drop tests are pretty reliable. As you mentioned they are cheap and also very easy to use.

I say "Guestimate" because you get a range. It's a good range, in my case I get "less than 17 ppm" but it could be 2 or it could be 16.9. Either way, it's not a meaningful amount nor a meaningful difference. It also depends on your eyesight, and detection of colors, and I do it over white paper.

It's great for continuing to check my RO water dispenser, as if the hardness increases, I'll know to change the membrane.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I say "Guestimate" because you get a range. It's a good range, in my case I get "less than 17 ppm" but it could be 2 or it could be 16.9. Either way, it's not a meaningful amount nor a meaningful difference. It also depends on your eyesight, and detection of colors, and I do it over white paper.

The alkalinity test I have does show a very evident color switch that is almost impossible to miss. The total hardness test is a bit more tricky, with a much more subtle/faint color switch. I think it has gotten worse with age and it's probably time to replace it. But the alkalinity test is still spot-on and very easy to handle, even if the test solution is at least two years old now. And the alkalinity one is the most important by far... I only use the hardness test to get a rough estimate of my Ca- and Mg concentrations.
But I am based in EU so we may also have different test kits. Mine are also a bit more expensive than 5$, but not by much....

 

[alan sabatke]

I moved to a new house a couple of years ago and had off flavors so bad I had to dump many batches. Got a wards water test and ph is at 8.1 and is fairly hard. Started adding 2 gals RO water for every 3 gals well water and beer is back to fantastic! I have a cooling coil in my fermenter which I circulate cool well water through, thermostat controlled, so hot fermentation was not a cause with off flavors. Wish I had learned sooner about the high ph, lost a couple of 15 gal batches, what a waste!!

 

[z-bob]

There is a local microbrewery and tap room that uses the local tapwater and just filters it through a carbon block to remove chlorine. Most of their beers range from bad to terrible, but I've had a double stout there that was actually pretty good.

Most of the homebrewers here don't even try to use tapwater, they either have an RO machine or buy bottled water. The good microbreweries use a mixture of RO water and tapwater. I use straight tapwater but I have to add a lot of acid. Someday I want to try using calcium hydroxide to soften the water, then add just a little acid to the mash.