Oxygen for oxygenating wort

[VikeMan]

It also means less "stress" on the yeast and that actually lowers the chance of off flavors being produced by stressed yeast.

Why does it men less stress? Do you assume that because the yeast get to skip a step? If so, I'd want to see some data that it reduces off flavors.

Also can mean shorter fermentation times because the yeast are "stronger".

Can it? The trials at New Belgium showed the opposite. What evidence is there that the yeast are stronger?

 

[belgabrewing]

Why does it men less stress? Do you assume that because the yeast get to skip a step? If so, I'd want to see some data that it reduces off flavors.



Can it? The trials at New Belgium showed the opposite. What evidence is there that the yeast are stronger?

I suppose from reading about pitch rates and why you make a starter with a larger number of cells to reduce the "stress" on the yeast in high gravity beers. It would lead one to believe that helping the yeast to thrive more quickly by allowing them to skip a step in their metabolism would result in the possible reduction off flavors mentioned when there is a discussion about pitch rates etc.

 

[VikeMan]

I suppose from reading about pitch rates and why you make a starter with a larger number of cells to reduce the "stress" on the yeast in high gravity beers. It would lead one to believe that helping the yeast to thrive more quickly by allowing them to skip a step in their metabolism would result in the possible reduction off flavors mentioned when there is a discussion about pitch rates etc.

One could just as easily argue (i.e. assume) that skipping a step results in making less of some flavors that are desirable. Personally, I wouldn't make either assumption without data.

 

[tracer bullet]

There's an article about this I find interesting but haven't exactly determined what to do with (the short take-away is "it depends"). I will link it below. If it's a page for components for sale then maybe scroll lower, past them.

https://www.morebeer.com/category/wort-oxygenation-aeration.html/#Biochemistry of yeast
The first paragraph, with of course much more after it:

"Fermentation is perhaps the most interesting and exciting part of brewing beer. There is something fascinating about watching yeast in action, and being close to the process contributes immensely to my enjoyment of my beer. No matter how well we do our part in preparing bitter wort for fermentation, it is the yeast that turns it into beer. For this reason alone, it is important to understand and appreciate what these microorganisms are really doing inside our fermentors. Most of the popular brewing literature, however, fosters a misconception about yeast and fermentation. This articles sets the record straight.

Most of the brewing literature indicates that brewers’ yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae and S. uvarum) required dissolved oxygen for a brief period of time after pitching so the cells can respire and grow, implying that yeast needs oxygen to bud and must respire before it can ferment wort. It is true that aerating or oxygenating wort is generally beneficial to fermentation, but it is untrue to say that yeast requires oxygen to reproduce or that yeast uses oxygen to respire during fermentation. The misunderstanding may be subtle, but it is a misunderstanding nonetheless. Gaining a clear understanding of the truth about how yeast works not only sets us on sound technical foundations, but has practical applications as well. This article briefly discusses yeast metabolism, clarifies the role of oxygen, and suggests some practical applications of this more refined understanding of fermentation processes."

 

[belgabrewing]

One could just as easily argue (i.e. assume) that skipping a step results in making less of some flavors that are desirable. Personally, I wouldn't make either assumption without data.

This the best I can do as far as research for now:
https://brulosophy.com/2020/01/27/i...rnative-to-wort-aeration-exbeeriment-results/
White Labs:
https://yeastbuddy.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/comparative-sample-report.pdf

 

[VikeMan]

White Labs:
https://yeastbuddy.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/comparative-sample-report.pdf

The White Labs data is interesting. The off flavor compounds they tested for were Diacetyl and 2,3 Pentanedione. It's not much data, but FWIW, the 10 ppm O2 batches produced less of these compounds on average than did the olive oil batches. Actually, so did the 5 ppm O2 batches, but not as dramatically.

 

[tracer bullet]

There's an article about this I find interesting but haven't exactly determined what to do with (the short take-away is "it depends"). I will link it below. If it's a page for components for sale then maybe scroll lower, past them.

https://www.morebeer.com/category/wort-oxygenation-aeration.html/#Biochemistry of yeast

Hoping someone with more knowledge and experience could give the article a read and weigh in on their thoughts. I'm really finding this part interesting:

" I do not believe that brewers necessarily need to aerate their worts at all if the pitching yeast comes from a fresh starter culture that itself has been well-aerated during growth and stepped up to produce a sufficient number of healthy cells "

They do go on to say that it can be style dependent of course, if you are looking for particular characteristics.

 

[Beermeister32]

How about putting a drop of olive oil in your starter and giving it a spin on the stir plate?

 

[VikeMan]

" I do not believe that brewers necessarily need to aerate their worts at all if the pitching yeast comes from a fresh starter culture that itself has been well-aerated during growth and stepped up to produce a sufficient number of healthy cells "

I've read that before in various forms, but I think it kind of ignores the fact that starters don't actually produce "a sufficient number of healthy cells." By that, I mean that there's normally more budding happening in the main batch than ever happened in the starter. The starter gets the cell count to the appropriate starting place for the main batch. We want significant budding in the main batch. Otherwise, we could just severely "overpitch" and call it a day.

And to do all that budding in the main batch, those cells need to build sufficient sterols. I think that's pretty hard to manage in a starter sized volume.

 

[Spivey24]

I gave up using the aeration stones a couple years ago after getting sick of those $10 Home Depot oxygen bottles leaking and just getting a few uses out of them, and cleaning the wand and stone. I just use the shake method now which works well enough. Wondering if there would be any benefit to combining shaking with adding a few drops of olive oil to kick start things. I may give it a try.

 

[Golddiggie]

I ditched the 'shake' method early on. Yes, the HD O2 bottles suck. That's why I went and got a proper O2 bottle about a decade ago. Cleaning the wand, and stone, was never an issue for me. IMO, if you know what you're doing, it's easy.

When I switched to kegmenters, shaking was reduced to a zero chance. Now that I'm using conical fermenters, it has an even lower chance. I fill those from the bottom (dump) port with a closed method. Adding oxygen to the wort is also very easy with my setup. Connect up the O2 bottle to the stone, turn on the tank, set the regulator, open valve at stone, Bob's your auntie. Close valve at stone when done and disconnect from bottle to cleanup. I did make a ball lock post adapter for the regulator earlier this year. So connecting is easy.

IMO/IME, if you set things up intelligently, it's easy to infuse O2 into the wort. Sure, it might not be cheap, but some of us don't have issues paying for items that make brewing easier AND better.

 

[IslandLizard]

getting sick of those $10 Home Depot oxygen bottles leaking and just getting a few uses out of them

Yes, the HD O2 bottles suck.

When using those little throw away O2 bottles, you should remove the valve from the tank between uses. The valve and seal are a leaky POC.

That's why I went and got a proper O2 bottle about a decade ago.

Exactly, especially when you brew much.
I skipped the little red tanks and never regretted going for a 40 cu-ft O2 cylinder, with regulator/flow adjuster and homemade wand, at less than the cost of 10 little tanks.

I also thoroughly oxygenate starters before they go on the "plate."

My fermentations have been more consistent and predictable with using O2 vs. shaking/whisking/pouring back and forth and whatnot.

I've tried the drop of EVOO for a year or so, before buying the tank, but have no real data on how well it worked. O2 simply does the job. I always pitch well oxygenated vitality starters too.
With that method, I've had fermentations take off in 3-4 hours, and finish within 3-4 days at 68-70F.

 

[Beermeister32]

Is olive oil sanitary enough to be adding to a starter or a carboy?

 

[MaxStout]

I have a 20 cu ft bottle I bought and filled a few years ago. I'm still on that same fill. A minute with a 0.5 micron stone, longer if it's high-gravity wort. That's all it needs. My fermentations take right off.

If it's not broken, don't fix it.

 

[MaxStout]

Is olive oil sanitary enough to be adding to a starter or a carboy?

It should be packaged sanitary at the factory, but once it's opened by the consumer all bets are off. I suppose you could pasteurize some before adding.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is olive oil sanitary enough to be adding to a starter or a carboy?

What can grow in olive oil? The toothpick may be more suspicious as an infection vector, depending on its history.

Then again, it's probably such a minute amount of bugs that would get transferred that way, compared to what drops into an open fermenter while filling, stirring, or whisking...

 

[Golddiggie]

What can grow in olive oil? The toothpick may be more suspicious as an infection vector, depending on its history.

Then again, it's probably such a minute amount of bugs that would get transferred that way, compared to what drops into an open fermenter while filling, stirring, or whisking...

These are reasons why I don't stir, whisk and fill with a closed transfer method. The only 'exposure' is while I pitch the yeast in between when the Starsan soaked paper towel covers the port and I put the cap in place (TC cap). I've gotten it to the point where the exposure time is seconds (at most). It's cheaper to have a mixed bucket of Starsan on hand for brew day than risk contaminating a batch.

 

[Beermeister32]

Dunno. I know ours sits in the kitchen cabinet for months with no issues.

 

[Broothru]

Yes I did all that as well.
Just saying.. try the hydroxide soak (KOH or NaOH) for a couple days and then tell me if your stone was clean.

For the PBW guys.. soaking in any other cleaner just wont do in this case.

I worried quite a bit about cleaning the carb stone/oxygenation stone that had a dedicated TC port when I got my unitank. The port on the inside was a collection site for trub and yeast, with the stone getting buried in gunk for an extended period of time, often under ~1 atm pressure.

I can see how NaOH would reduce the debris, but I'm really hesitant to use something that caustic. Isn't NaOH something like pH 12.0? When done, do you use phosphoric acid to neutralize? Where do you source your hydroxide? All of this is pretty new to me.

Currently my carb/oxygen stone port is capped off but I'd like to use it again as I'm now reduced to uncapping the fermenter after transferring from the whirlpool to put an oxygenation wand into the wort before pitching yeast.

 

[Broothru]

I ditched the 'shake' method early on. Yes, the HD O2 bottles suck. That's why I went and got a proper O2 bottle about a decade ago. Cleaning the wand, and stone, was never an issue for me. IMO, if you know what you're doing, it's easy.

When I switched to kegmenters, shaking was reduced to a zero chance. Now that I'm using conical fermenters, it has an even lower chance. I fill those from the bottom (dump) port with a closed method. Adding oxygen to the wort is also very easy with my setup. Connect up the O2 bottle to the stone, turn on the tank, set the regulator, open valve at stone, Bob's your auntie. Close valve at stone when done and disconnect from bottle to cleanup. I did make a ball lock post adapter for the regulator earlier this year. So connecting is easy.

IMO/IME, if you set things up intelligently, it's easy to infuse O2 into the wort. Sure, it might not be cheap, but some of us don't have issues paying for items that make brewing easier AND better.

It sounds like you're doing something I'd thought about trying. My unitank came with a TC mounted carb/oxygen stone port about mid-cone. It gets packed with yeast, trub, etc. Not wanting to leave the microscopic gunk to get pushed into the pores, I removed the stone and capped the port.

What I've thought about doing was mounting the TC stone in a 4" TC spool below the lower butterfly dump valve. That way I could open the butterfly, flood the spool, and then oxygenate the wort from the bottom up. When done, close the butterfly and remove the spool and TC carb stone. I'd be a little messy and loose some wort, but would prevent the pores in the stone from getting impacted with gunk.

 

[Bilsch]

I worried quite a bit about cleaning the carb stone/oxygenation stone that had a dedicated TC port when I got my unitank. The port on the inside was a collection site for trub and yeast, with the stone getting buried in gunk for an extended period of time, often under ~1 atm pressure.

I can see how NaOH would reduce the debris, but I'm really hesitant to use something that caustic. Isn't NaOH something like pH 12.0? When done, do you use phosphoric acid to neutralize? Where do you source your hydroxide? All of this is pretty new to me.

Currently my carb/oxygen stone port is capped off but I'd like to use it again as I'm now reduced to uncapping the fermenter after transferring from the whirlpool to put an oxygenation wand into the wort before pitching yeast.

And you rightly should be worried since that stone is basically a perfect scaffold for microbial growth. NaOH or KOH are really the only things that will completely remove ALL the crud and leave you with not just a sanitized stone but in fact will be sterile.

Actually more like a pH of 13 and so it's not something you want to get on your skin or especially in your eyes. But that is why it does it's job so effectively, basically dissolving all the organic matter it touches. It really is the nuclear weapon of cleaning but you cant get away with anything less for this particular job.

As for sourcing, hydroxides can be found quite readily on amazon.

A 3% solution in warm RO/DI water is perfect for the job. Place the stone with the solution in a plastic screwtop jar and let it sit for a couple days or really as long as you want since it's completely compatible with stainless. This solution can be kept and reused several times so just fish the stone out and re-seal the jar for the next soak. After removal from the solution, rinse well with water and follow with a repeated starsan rinse and reverse flush. I usually follow that with compressed air then 90%+ isopropyl alcohol and more air to be completely dry.

Disclaimer:
Remember to wear your safety goggles and gloves handling this one. You will feel it if it gets on your skin and have a minute or so to wash it off before it causes to much damage. For your eyes though you have no time before cornea damage happens so just don't let that happen. Be careful while weighing and handling the dry crystals as you will invariably get an escapee which can be bad for pet paws eyes etc. I usually weigh out on a large tray that can be rinsed off afterword.

Handling hydroxide is not trivial but also not brain surgery. Remember this solution strength is exactly that which is used for pretzel and bagel making and we don't lose to many people each year in bakery accidents.

 

[IslandLizard]

As for sourcing, hydroxides can be found quite readily on amazon.

Your hardware store too, usually sold as granular "Drain Opener," Red Devil, and such. Or sometimes jugs with 17% liquid NaOH solution.

 

[Bilsch]

Your hardware store too, usually sold as granular "Drain Opener," Red Devil, and such. Or sometimes jugs with 17% liquid NaOH solution.

I'd stay away from that ****, often it contains fillers, aluminum chips, carbonates etc. Go for the food or lab grade stuff on Amazon.

 

[DavidWood2115]

I can see how NaOH would reduce the debris, but I'm really hesitant to use something that caustic. Isn't NaOH something like pH 12.0? When done, do you use phosphoric acid to neutralize? Where do you source your hydroxide?

The instructions for using Five Star Chemicals' Caustic #2 cleaner are just:

1. Mix 1/2 oz.-2 oz. per gallon of water
2. Circulate for 20-30 minutes at a temperature of 160°-212°F.
3. Drain, rinse, and sanitize before use.

The only ingredient listed in the SDS is 75-90% Sodium Hydroxide: https://fivestarchemicals.com/media/document/HD_Caustic_2_SDS.pdf
So it doesn't sound like you need to explicitly neutralize it, even thought the pH solution is listed as 13-13.5.

 

[ITV]

The instructions for using Five Star Chemicals' Caustic #2 cleaner are just:

1. Mix 1/2 oz.-2 oz. per gallon of water
2. Circulate for 20-30 minutes at a temperature of 160°-212°F.
3. Drain, rinse, and sanitize before use.

The only ingredient listed in the SDS is 75-90% Sodium Hydroxide: https://fivestarchemicals.com/media/document/HD_Caustic_2_SDS.pdf
So it doesn't sound like you need to explicitly neutralize it, even thought the pH solution is listed as 13-13.5.

I have 5 Star Liquid Line Cleaner which is a Sodium Hydroxide solution as well but doesn't require the high temperatures.
I have used it sucussfully on my plate chiller with an overnight soak and may consider trying it on my oxygen stones.

 

[Broothru]

I have 5 Star Liquid Line Cleaner which is a Sodium Hydroxide solution as well but doesn't require the high temperatures.
I have used it sucussfully on my plate chiller with an overnight soak and may consider trying it on my oxygen stones.

It seems that I DO have experience with NaOH after all!

I picked up some of the 5 Star LLC a while back when my LHBS was out of my favored B*L*C. The mostly unused 4 oz bottle is still there with my brew supplies. I didn't realize it was NaOH, but reading over the 5 Star data sheet it appears to be quite dilute as sold. Their recommended dosage is 0.5 ounces per gallon of water which, assuming my math is correct (always a shaky supposition), their usage rate concentration is 0.39%, so I'd need ~4 oz. per gallon of R.O./distilled water to get a 3% NaOH solution. The listed concentration of total caustics on their SDS sheet was "25%-45% NaOH, 0%-5% KOH". It's not clear to me why the range of NaOH concentration has a 20% variable amount.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out the chemical composition of LLC. I'll put new goggles, gloves and more LLC on my shopping list.

 

[ITV]

It seems that I DO have experience with NaOH after all!

I picked up some of the 5 Star LLC a while back when my LHBS was out of my favored B*L*C. The mostly unused 4 oz bottle is still there with my brew supplies. I didn't realize it was NaOH, but reading over the 5 Star data sheet it appears to be quite dilute as sold. Their recommended dosage is 0.5 ounces per gallon of water which, assuming my math is correct (always a shaky supposition), their usage rate concentration is 0.39%, so I'd need ~4 oz. per gallon of R.O./distilled water to get a 3% NaOH solution. The listed concentration of total caustics on their SDS sheet was "25%-45% NaOH, 0%-5% KOH". It's not clear to me why the range of NaOH concentration has a 20% variable amount.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out the chemical composition of LLC. I'll put new goggles, gloves and more LLC on my shopping list.

My jug (32 oz) of 5 Star LLC recommends 1 oz/gal dillution, which is what I use for my beer lines and very occasional overnight soak of my plate chiller.

 

[bkboiler]

I use a brand new M4 with a CGA 540 and a pediatric flow regulator. I jammed on it my old setup from my LHBS which was from my old acquarium pump...it's a 2 micron stone attached to some tubing with a sterile filter in between.
Airgas has no tank to exchange so they were obligated to fill mine and have me return to pick it up (what I wanted).
Wasn't cheap to do it all this way, but it's what I wanted.
I usually do like a PBW, water , star san soak before and after brewing but not for super long (a few minutes tops)...
So I try to put my stone away dry, and also have oxygen flowing when I put the stone in and take it out of the wort.

I'm still gonna try the KOH trick tho, great idea!

 

[Golddiggie]

I'd stay away from that ****, often it contains fillers, aluminum chips, carbonates etc. Go for the food or lab grade stuff on Amazon.

Actually, Red Devil brand NaOH IS "food grade" and doesn't contain any of the crap you mention. I actually checked one of the bottles I still have (last night).

 

[DavidWood2115]

For what it's worth, this is the setup a local craft brewery uses on their 1 BBL Spike pilot system (where I had a chance to brew a collaboration beer in 2019).

Wort comes in on the right, in a single pass through the plate chiller after a 5 minute whirlpool and 15 minute settle (no strainer). With a 1 BBL kettle, there was no trub pickup with the side pickup tube. I am not sure if this would be true with the 20 gallon kettle that I am almost ready to spring for.

Oxygen comes in on the left; I did not note the flow rate, but I think it was set by observing the bubbles in the sight glass, rather than a calibrated valve/meter.

The oxygen stone, fermenter, plate chiller, etc. were all sanitized by circulating 170/180F water for 15 minutes prior to pitching (above pasteurization time/temperature and is sufficient to sanitize even if the plate chiller or oxygen stone are not squeaky clean). The sample port was used to drain the hot water from the fermenter, then chilled wort is used to flush the chiller and hoses before closing the sample port and opening the dump valve to fill the fermenter. Having a floor/trench drain and hose made this super easy, but I imagine one could have a bucket under the sample port with similar effect.

For cleaning, the plate chiller/hoses/oxygen stone are flushed in both directions, then cleaned by circulating hot caustic for 30 minutes.

I will probably try to do something similar when I finally break for a CF10. However, I don't think I will clean with caustic on every brew since my brewery is on a septic system. But with heat sanitation, it should be OK.