Oxidized batch in 2 days with closed transfer.

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11thStBrewing

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I'm a long time lurker and just joined. Love brewing and this forum!
I've brewed 4 batches of beer that turned out good, but this last one has me stumped.
Trying to get some help.

My favorite styles are hoppy beers, so I went straight to kegging due to oxidation.

-Clawhammer supply 120v
-Fermzilla all rounder
-Rapt Pill

I brewed a 5.5g batch of an IPA with 2 row pale malt, little munich I and hopped like a hazy. 13oz of hops total.
30 minute addition and a big hopstand.
6oz dry hop
Brew day went well.

OG 1.067
2 sachets US-05 pitched @70F directly on the aerated wort
Fermented at 66F-67F for the first few days

I had a spunding valve on the fermenter, but no pressure.
At 3 days the pill said it was at 1.020, so I dry hopped it. Estimated FG was 1.013

All I've been doing for the dry hop is just opening the lid and dumping the hops in loose then closing it up as quick as possible.
Haven't had an issue doing it like this so far. I think I may try the silicone sous vide magnets next time.
Or maybe a bag, as that would let me put the hops in slowly to avoid splashing?
I've only dry hopped at high kraused before this. Magnets are a PITA.

7 gravity points should be okay though, right?
After I dry hop I've been letting the pressure build up a little bit. 3-5PSI.

I started raising the temp at this point. Ended up at 71 going a couple degrees a day
Hit terminal gravity(Ended up 1.013) on day 7 and I left it for a couple more days before cold crashing.

For cold crashing I just connect CO2 @12psi(what the regulator is set at) and the Inkbird @32F.
Actual beer temp gets down to about 34 in about 12 hours according to the pill.
After a couple days I did a closed transfer.

I already had a clean keg and filled it to the very top with RO water/Starsan.
Pushed out the sanitizer out with CO2 using my jumper(to purge it) with a little ball lock coupler and a picnic tap.

At this point the keg and fermenter is @12psi.
I put a spunding valve on the keg and slowly turn the knob until I can see beer flowing.
Haven't had any issues at all doing this. No foaming or other issues. Takes 15 min or so.
I took a sample and was very happy.

Set the keezer to 38 and was letting it carbonate.
I'm a fan of tasting the beer here and there to see how it goes.
This is where I'm lost. 2 days later there's no malt flavor or hop flavor. Totally stale.
I'm a draft beer tech and have tasted plenty of oxidized beers. It's unmistakeable.

This tastes like a beer that was sitting for a year during COVID lockdowns. Just horrible.

I just don't understand how this could've happened and would like to avoid it.
Any ideas?
 
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Bobby_M

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All I've been doing for the dry hop is just opening the lid and dumping the hops in loose then closing it up as quick as possible.
I'm assuming you're using the floating diptube. Put a black QD on your CO2 supply first. Then you should loosen the lid a bit, hook up the CO2 at about .5 PSI to the liquid out post, quickly move the lid aside to drop the hops in. Then put the lid back on but thread it only loose and let gas leak out for about 60 seconds and then fully seal the lid. I believe the dry hop is where you got the oxygen.
I already had a clean keg and filled it to the very top with RO water/Starsan.
Pushed out the sanitizer out with CO2 using my jumper(to purge it) with a little ball lock coupler and a picnic tap.

At this point the keg and fermenter is @12psi.
I put a spunding valve on the keg and slowly turn the knob until I can see beer flowing.
Haven't had any issues at all doing this. No foaming or other issues. Takes 15 min or so.
I took a sample and was very happy.
Slight improvement can be to set the spunding at the carbonation pressure (12) but you can raise the fermenter pressure 3-5 psi higher than that to move the beer quickly.
 
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11thStBrewing

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I'm assuming you're using the floating diptube. Put a black QD on your CO2 supply first. Then you should loosen the lid a bit, hook up the CO2 at about .5 PSI to the liquid out post, quickly move the lid aside to drop the hops in. Then put the lid back on but thread it only loose and let gas leak out for about 60 seconds and then fully seal the lid. I believe the dry hop is where you got the oxygen.

Slight improvement can be to set the spunding at the carbonation pressure (12) but you can raise the fermenter pressure 3-5 psi higher than that to move the beer quickly.
Thanks. I totally forgot. I did connect CO2( to the gas side) and continously ran it while I was dry hopping, but it was difficult. I forgot to keep it going to purge it! Damn. I'm with you, I think that's what it is. Will connect it to the liquid side and purge it from the floating dip tube next time.
It's weird though, you'd think since it was still fermenting it wouldn't be completely ruined like that? I would think bottling would be much worse.

The spunding valve says 5psi or so when it's transferring. Not sure how accurate it is. That would be 7psi difference if it's correct.

EDIT:

How in the world do people dry hop in a bucket after fermentation is complete? Just seems crazy to me how quickly this got ruined.
 
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11thStBrewing

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I just wanted to update everyone. There's no way I ruined this batch dry hopping the way I did.

This was the first and only time I've bought ingredients from the closest HBS. My only guess is it was very old or improperly stored base malt.

I brewed a SMaSH beer with maris otter (1.060OG)and Citra hops that I ordered online. 3 gallon batch. 3oz hot side (60IBU) and 3oz dry hop towards end Of fermentation

I fermented this one and serving from a corny keg. When I dry hopped I put the gas on the liquid side and didn't notice that it popped off the floating dip tube. When I went to get a sample after cold crashing I just got gas.

The beer was about 32f at this point. I put gas on the in post, ran it at ~12psi, pulled the PRV on the lid and took it off.

With everything sanitized, I used the little tool that comes with the Flotit V2 to fish the hose out. Took me a few attempts. Then I stuck my clean hand in put the hose back on the dip tube then put the lid on and purged with the PRV open.

Few days later the beer is just fine. Yesterday I did the same process and added gelatin. First time and I'm very impressed. 24 hours later and the beer is almost perfectly clear.

We'll see how it goes, but I haven't been great about oxygen and the beer doesn't taste stale at all yet.

Will be adding biofine through the post later, but I feel like I've done this beer wrong and it's still okay.

The last one with local ingredients seriously tasted like it was a year+ old.
 

marc1

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I just wanted to update everyone. There's no way I ruined this batch dry hopping the way I did.

This was the first and only time I've bought ingredients from the closest HBS. My only guess is it was very old or improperly stored base malt.

I brewed a SMaSH beer with maris otter (1.060OG)and Citra hops that I ordered online. 3 gallon batch. 3oz hot side (60IBU) and 3oz dry hop towards end Of fermentation

I fermented this one and serving from a corny keg. When I dry hopped I put the gas on the liquid side and didn't notice that it popped off the floating dip tube. When I went to get a sample after cold crashing I just got gas.

The beer was about 32f at this point. I put gas on the in post, ran it at ~12psi, pulled the PRV on the lid and took it off.

With everything sanitized, I used the little tool that comes with the Flotit V2 to fish the hose out. Took me a few attempts. Then I stuck my clean hand in put the hose back on the dip tube then put the lid on and purged with the PRV open.

Few days later the beer is just fine. Yesterday I did the same process and added gelatin. First time and I'm very impressed. 24 hours later and the beer is almost perfectly clear.

We'll see how it goes, but I haven't been great about oxygen and the beer doesn't taste stale at all yet.

Will be adding biofine through the post later, but I feel like I've done this beer wrong and it's still okay.

The last one with local ingredients seriously tasted like it was a year+ old.

I'm glad this one seems to be OK!

Whenever I open a keg or fermenter I purge 13x at 30PSI to get oxygen down to negligible levels. If what you did works for you, then all is well! If this ends up going off on you, you can explore more purging.
 
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11thStBrewing

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I'm glad this one seems to be OK!

Whenever I open a keg or fermenter I purge 13x at 30PSI to get oxygen down to negligible levels. If what you did works for you, then all is well! If this ends up going off on you, you can explore more purging.
Thanks for your reply. Will be purging even during active fermentation from now on.
 

Jim R

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I started using the Sous Vide magnets to dry hop and it works pretty well and not that much of a PITA. That being said, I don't think a beer will be terrible in 2 days from oxidation if the only thing you did was open the lid for a couple seconds. That doesn't sound right to me.

As long as you have a spunding valve, you may as well purge your kegs with fermentation CO2. I am always surprised how quickly the kegs purge out the sanitizer. This showed me just how much CO2 is generated during fermentation. Any oxygen introduced in a quick lid opening is going to be diluted down very quickly with active fermentation.
 
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11thStBrewing

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I'll try the magnets again, thanks. I have the red sous vide ones.

Also got a new and bigger chest freezer. Finally have enough room for more activities. Fermenting and serving in kegs for now. Going very well.

I used gelatin for the first time the other on that smash beer and it was almost perfectly clear in 24 hours. I was very surprised.
 
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11thStBrewing

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Just curious how the color looked. Oxidized beer is typically dull and darker than non oxidized beer
Unfortunately, I don't have a pic. I took a hydrometer reading 2 days after dry hopping and it had that ngarly brownish hue. It tasted okay then, though.

Looked similar to this that I saved from an overbuilt starter like 3 months ago. Was spinning on a stir plate for 24 hours.
 

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Unicorn_Platypus

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Reposting this response about my process with dry hopping in an all rounder I posted on a fermzilla Facebook page as I think it's relevant

"I prefer dry hopping at the end of active fermentation to scrub any oxygen. I even add a little bit 15g of Dextrose & 5g of ascorbic acid to ensure oxygen is scrubbed. Then I start raising the temp to 68 or 70 degrees to encourage fermentation to complete and ensure that yeast is active. I then set my spunding valve to 25 PSI to let it start naturally carbonating (note I do not begin thebdry hop or ferment under pressure until at it is at least 2/3 fermented per a hydrometer reading). I am also very careful not to introduce oxygen at dry hop. I keep positive pressure of 3 PSI by attaching my CO2 tank gas line to the liquid in on the floating dip tube (remember to purge the line of any air before doing so). I unscrew the gas post on the fermzilla lid and dry hop through that tiny opening. To add the dry hops in such a small opening I fashioned a funnel using a 16oz pet bottle (I trimed off enough area around the cap until it fits snuggly around the lip of the gas port on the lid)

I then only leave it on dry hops for 8 hours or so which is plenty of time for extraction. I also gently agitate the all rounder a few times during that time to encourage extraction. For the last three hours I don't agitate and let everything settle.

I then do a closed xfer to a fully purged keg using my co2 tank & spunding valve. I use a flotit dip tube with DFI screen in the fermenter to ensure hop matter is not pulled into the keg. The manufacturer does not recommend doing this before cold crashing, but I have done it without any issues on numerous batches including ones with 14oz of dry hops. If there is any kind of minor clog, I simply burst CO2 back through the liquid in to clear it from the filter . This has only happened to me once, but the xfer was still successful.

In the receiving keg I have a Clear Beer Draught System floating dip tube (no filter). After xfer I set my spunding valve to the desired PSI for final carbonation volume roughly 35 PSI and let fermentation complete in the keg per hydrometer reading. This generally takes 2 to 3 days. Transfering to the receiving keg during active fermentation further scrubs and residual oxygen that may be in that receiving keg after xfer.

Once carbonated I stick in the keezer at 35 degrees F and let condition for at least a week until the beer is bright.

I monitor the PSI as it cold crashes and if needed I hook it up to the CO2 tank to add any additional carbonation

I also recommend using cut gas diptubes in the keg to ensure you can purge the remaining sanitizer that cannot be removed via the floating diptube alone. I also recommend using saniclean in the keg over starsan since its non foaming. This will minimize any disolved oxygen introduced by the sanitizer. Also remember to fill the keg to the tippy top with saniclean before the purge."
 
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11thStBrewing

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I wanted to update this thread. I brewed another hoppy beer and it got wrecked by oxidation again. Even before the oxidation it severely lacked hop flavor and aroma. Decent hopstand and 30 minute addition.

I’m fermenting and serving in kegs for now. 3g batches or so. Dry hopping at the tail end of fermentation. What I did when I dry hopped this time is I pulled the PRV with gas attached so there’s some positive pressure and removed the lid. 12psi. I check for leaks every time I put the lid back on.

Dumped hops in and put the lid back on with the PRV up still. I then let the gas run for probably 3-4 minutes before twisting the PRV to seal it up. Total waste of co2. I added a bit of pressure after this.

The sample 3 days later had no bright hop aroma / flavor at all, really, but didn’t taste like oxidation. Just like booboo beer.

The appearance, mouthfeel and bitterness were exactly what I was going for, though.

5 days after I dry hopped I cold crashed and tried it again. Again no bright hop flavor/aroma even at room temp. Didn’t seem oxidized then.

I tried keg hopping using the same method with gas as I did before. 1.5 weeks in the keg and it’s trashed. Not sure what wrecked it exactly, but it has that oxidized aftertaste for sure and it got darker. I don’t see how people use bottling buckets and all that and make drinkable hoppy beer.

I’m not sure why I didn’t use magnets this time, but I’m going to try that with the next dry hopped beer. Few weeks away or so. Will update again. I might record my whole process so I can hopefully get some help.

Little bummed, but happy I get to brew more. :p
 

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Unicorn_Platypus

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I wanted to update this thread. I brewed another hoppy beer and it got wrecked by oxidation again. Even before the oxidation it severely lacked hop flavor and aroma. Decent hopstand and 30 minute addition.

I’m fermenting and serving in kegs for now. 3g batches or so. Dry hopping at the tail end of fermentation. What I did when I dry hopped this time is I pulled the PRV with gas attached so there’s some positive pressure and removed the lid. 12psi. I check for leaks every time I put the lid back on.

Dumped hops in and put the lid back on with the PRV up still. I then let the gas run for probably 3-4 minutes before twisting the PRV to seal it up. Total waste of co2. I added a bit of pressure after this.

The sample 3 days later had no bright hop aroma / flavor at all, really, but didn’t taste like oxidation. Just like booboo beer.

The appearance, mouthfeel and bitterness were exactly what I was going for, though.

5 days after I dry hopped I cold crashed and tried it again. Again no bright hop flavor/aroma even at room temp. Didn’t seem oxidized then.

I tried keg hopping using the same method with gas as I did before. 1.5 weeks in the keg and it’s trashed. Not sure what wrecked it exactly, but it has that oxidized aftertaste for sure and it got darker. I don’t see how people use bottling buckets and all that and make drinkable hoppy beer.

I’m not sure why I didn’t use magnets this time, but I’m going to try that with the next dry hopped beer. Few weeks away or so. Will update again. I might record my whole process so I can hopefully get some help.

Little bummed, but happy I get to brew more. :p
Do the hops you are using smell fresh? Could be old hops rather than process issues
 
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11thStBrewing

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These in particular do, but I’m going to try some new ones I got from YVH. Not even 1 bag I bought from MB was vacuum sealed, but I did that right away and put them in the freezer. The bag of Idaho 7 smells like straight up garlic and onions. El dorado smells like nothing.

Is there a reliable way to test hops? I tried dosing bud light and it was ngarly.

The only hoppy beer I’ve made that had bright aroma and flavor used some mosaic from NB.
 

Unicorn_Platypus

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If they smell like onion & garlic it means they were late harvest and you got stuck with a bad lot. Toss them & ask for a refund. I've had some issues with YVH in the past where they send me hops from a bunk lot. Usually their stuff is fine, but this happens to me 1/8 times with them. Their hops are so cheaply priced though that I generally just write it off and suck it up. I always order a few different varieties at a time, sniff em all and if its a bad lot I don't use em and sub with something else.

Morebeer I generally find more consistent in terms of quality vs. YVH. Morebeer doesn't vacuum seal there bags, but they are nitrogen flushed which IMO is even better than the vaccum seal. However, morebeer never labels their hops with the year. Conceptually I find this problematic, but usually all their hops pass the smell test. Morebeer's customer service is also excellent and if I ever get a bad bag they always refund me no questions asked.

In terms of how to test if hops are good just smell em. Take a pellet (let it warm up first if right out of the freezer) and break it up in your hand. If it smells cheezy or unappealing do not use them. If they look brownish this can also be an indicator, but trust your nose. If it smells like an aroma you would want in your beer then they are good to go. If they smell like something you wouldn't want then toss em
 

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I'm with @Jim R in doubting that oxygen caused dramatic effects after only 2 days. But maybe your palate is much more sensitive than mine. The anti oxygen ideas here are worthwhile anyway of course.

It's an odd situation:. Bad ingredients would likely make bad beer on day one - still bad on day 3. A head scratcher.
 

Unicorn_Platypus

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Try using 1g of ascorbic acid plus 2g of dextrose at dry hopping per gallon of beer.

The dextrose will help ensure the yeast scavenges the oxygen and the ascorbic acid will act as an antioxidant.

Keeping positive pressure with CO2 when opening the lid is a good idea. 12 psi is excessive though. 2-3 psi is plenty for this step.

After sealing the lid you then want to purge the headspace. This is where you want to use a higher PSI. When purging the headspace DO NOT leave the PRV open. Rather, you should pressurize to 30 psi (via gas post as you don't want to blow out the floating diptube connection) , wait 30 seconds for gases to mix, then release pressure. Repeat this process 5 times.

Also, just want to double check. Are you ALWAYS purging all of your gas lines before connecting them at ALL stages? For example if you are serving your beer and connecting to a brand new gas line hasn't first been purged then you are essentially blowing oxygen from the line directly into your beer at serving.

I keep a few extra plastic carbonation caps on hand. Whenever I hook up a new line to the co2 tank and to a keg, I first hook up the ball lock QD to the carb cap and blow CO2 through it at 10 to 12pis for a few seconds. Then I disconnect the carb cap while keeping the line pressurized.

I also highly recommend using eva barrier tubing and duotight fittings which offer great oxygen barrier permeability. Kegland also has new ball lock duotight QDs that are super convenient.
 
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11thStBrewing

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Try using 1g of ascorbic acid plus 2g of dextrose at dry hopping per gallon of beer.

The dextrose will help ensure the yeast scavenges the oxygen and the ascorbic acid will act as an antioxidant.

Keeping positive pressure with CO2 when opening the lid is a good idea. 12 psi is excessive though. 2-3 psi is plenty for this step.

After sealing the lid you then want to purge the headspace. This is where you want to use a higher PSI. When purging the headspace DO NOT leave the PRV open. Rather, you should pressurize to 30 psi (via gas post as you don't want to blow out the floating diptube connection) , wait 30 seconds for gases to mix, then release pressure. Repeat this process 5 times.

Also, just want to double check. Are you ALWAYS purging all of your gas lines before connecting them at ALL stages? For example if you are serving your beer and connecting to a brand new gas line hasn't first been purged then you are essentially blowing oxygen from the line directly into your beer at serving.

I keep a few extra plastic carbonation caps on hand. Whenever I hook up a new line to the co2 tank and to a keg, I first hook up the ball lock QD to the carb cap and blow CO2 through it at 10 to 12pis for a few seconds. Then I disconnect the carb cap while keeping the line pressurized.

I also highly recommend using eva barrier tubing and duotight fittings which offer great oxygen barrier permeability. Kegland also has new ball lock duotight QDs that are super convenient.
Thanks for all of the info.

I used absorbic acid on the non hoppy beer before this and just forgot this time. Haven’t tried dextrose. I’m dry hopping right after high krausen, but surely it’s still worth it. Will try next time. It’s crazy that I see people only open the lid during active fermentation then simply drop the dry hops in and it turns out okay.

I forgot to mention that I did try the gas on the out, but I think it was at 12psi and I had to fish out the line. Somehow that one didn’t get oxidized. Will try low pressure later on if I forget to use magnets.
Will also purge it normally without the PRV open from now on with 30psi.

I use Eva barrier on gas and liquid. The line I hook up has been purged with co2. That’s a good call.
 
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