Need to go electric...

[wepeeler]

If you have no big expansion plans the most cost effective way would be to run a 240V, 20A circuit and use a 6-20R receptacle. The Grainfather would be a direct plug-in.

There have been suggestions to "future proof" by putting in a 30A or 50A 120/240V circuit and I'm not expressly against that. But, going from 12/2 wire to 10/3 or especially 6/3 for a 50A circuit will increase the wire cost by a pretty sizable amount.

I have no future plans to upgrade, at least where I am living now. I also took a look at SS Brewtech's Electric 1V: https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/ebrewing-1v-system?variant=16553330147399 Looks like a Male L6-30 plug (Looks like I'd need a 30amp GFCI)...I already have everything else SS, they're just very pricey overall. BUT, I love the idea of the Grainfather. Looks sick!

 

[whoaru99]

I have no future plans to upgrade, at least where I am living now. I also took a look at SS Brewtech's Electric 1V: https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/ebrewing-1v-system?variant=16553330147399 Looks like a Male L6-30 plug (Looks like I'd need a 30amp GFCI)...I already have everything else SS, they're just very pricey overall. BUT, I love the idea of the Grainfather. Looks sick!

Yeah, that requires a 30A circuit.

 

[doug293cz]

I have no future plans to upgrade, at least where I am living now. I also took a look at SS Brewtech's Electric 1V: https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/ebrewing-1v-system?variant=16553330147399 Looks like a Male L6-30 plug (Looks like I'd need a 30amp GFCI)...I already have everything else SS, they're just very pricey overall. BUT, I love the idea of the Grainfather. Looks sick!

Nevermind. The SS Brewtech page linked didn't say anything about there being two power input cords for the controller. What a silly design!

Only the element has an L6-30 (3-wire) plug on it. The controller has to have a four wire connection because it provides both 240V and 120V outputs.

Brew on

 

[whoaru99]

Only the element has an L6-30 plug on it. The controller has to have a four wire connection because it provides both 240V and 120V outputs.

Brew on

I didn't see the 1V system, but if it's based on the eController that has separate 240V (L6-30) and 120V (5-15) inputs.

 

[wepeeler]

Only the element has an L6-30 (3-wire) plug on it. The controller has to have a four wire connection because it provides both 240V and 120V outputs.

Brew on

I didn't see the 1V system, but if it's based on the eController that has separate 240V (L6-30) and 120V (5-15) inputs.

The main SS Brewtech plug is only 240V. The 2 accessory receptacles are 120V.

From Brulosophy: Extending from the bottom of the controller unit are a male L6-30 power cord that gets plugged into the 240v socket, a female L6-30 cord that receives the plug from the kettle, a standard 110v grounded plug, and a female 3.5 mm jack that connects to the temperature probe in the kettle.

 

[whoaru99]

Right, separate 240V and 120V inputs, like this:

 

[wepeeler]

I really appreciate everyone chiming in. Not sure if I'm more lost now on what I want to do, but I did learn a bit about electricity!

 

[doug293cz]

Link me to the hardware por favor

Spa panels appear to have gotten more expensive since I last looked at them. Here's one of the cheaper ones at HD. Note that it is quite large - 10.5" x 7.75" x 4". You can find cheaper ones on Amazon, e-Bay, etc., but many of these use European style "GFCI"s that do not meet US code requirements (US code requires a 5mA fault current trip level, but European ones only provide a 30mA fault current trip level.) The higher European trip levels can result in a significant, and potentially dangerous, shock.

Here's how to wire a spa panel for a four wire input and output. If you only have three wires, then the yellow wires (would actually be white in a 4-wire cable) are just left out. If you only have three wires, you won't have a red wire, so you use the white one for what's red in the diagram.

Different brands will have the connections in different places, and you need to be sure you know which is the ground bus bar (connected to the box) and the neutral bus bar (isolated from the box.)

You can put a 50A GFCI downstream from a service panel breaker with no issues. The 50A GFCI will still trip at 5mA fault current, and the circuit wiring is protected by the 30A breaker in the service panel.

Brew on

 

[Brewer Mike]

So there goes my Hellfire burner in the garage...

They're saying you can't have open flame devices in your home? Wow! I can understand on a wooden deck, but no fireplace or gas appliances?

 

[Willy]

Thanks. I actually like that idea. I'm assuming slots 21 and 23 would work? My dad has done some electrical work, and I'm sure YouTube could help guide me through the easy stuff. What would be an appropriate GFCI? The adapter would be from the new garage outlet to the Grainfather plug?

View attachment 847489

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

I needed a sub panel because I have no vacant slots. Not a big expense relative to the whole job. Got two Nema 6-30 outlets, one outside, one in the garage.

 

[Bobby_M]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

Not really. It's 100% that it will work. Every other position is the same phase so that double pole breakers are able to be installed anywhere in the panel and have them work.

 

[mac_1103]

They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

I'm not an electrician, but I'd guess that the chances are closer to 100%. 2 & 4 have a two pole breaker. 18 & 20 have a two pole breaker. How would anybody ever install a two pole breaker if the phases don't alternate?

 

[Broken Crow]

Romex is solid conductor wire, and it is best practice to wire control panels with stranded conductor wire, especially if you are using crimp connections on wire ends (which is also best practice.)

Brew on

The moment I read that, I thought; "OH duh!! I know that!...or at least I used to know that...it's because ______ ..?" .."Damn! It's gone...Dead Zone." This sort of thing happens a lot; I'm fixing or building something following procedures I've done a million times before and I suddenly realize I have no idea why I'm doing it the way I'm doing it. For those that don't know; I suffered a brain injury in 2014 and I lost quite a lot. It's really bugging me that I can't remember the 'why' in this case and I thought I'd PM you to ask, but since you are the Authority on DIY electrical builds on a site which is used by many folk who 'do something because they read it on the interwebs' without a clue, it occurred to me that sharing safety advice is more important than my embarrassment, so...
Why is stranded chosen over solid-core?

 

[whoaru99]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

If the panel accepts a dual pole breaker (not to be confused with a single pole tandem breaker) at that position then it will be 100% correct.

Adjacent slots like that facilitate dual pole breakers expressly for the purpose of having the two poles on L1 and L2 in the panel.

See staggered bus contacts for both legs (L1 and L2) in a panel. There isn't really any way to screw it up if using dual pole breakers (represented by red outlines) even if you sneak single pole breaker in the stack (orange outline). It just works by design where the panel accepts dual pole breakers.

Note the example below accepts both thick and thin breakers. I've illustrated with thick breakers. Same applies though, if the panel accepts a dual pole breaker at any given position(s), it will be tapped into L1 and L2.

(Pedantic point follows: despite phase being often used, it's really not a matter of out of phase in this case. It is just single phase so there isn't anything to be out of phase with).

 

[Willy]

I'm not an electrician, but I'd guess that the chances are closer to 100%. 2 & 4 have a two pole breaker. 18 & 20 have a two pole breaker. How would anybody ever install a two pole breaker if the phases don't alternate?

Arranged for dual pole - it should already be properly wired, two 120v , out of phase.

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick (it'll blow the breaker fuses or perhaps just one, that is attached to the whatever).

Still think it is a good idea to at least understand how it works (and yeah... Use an electrician )

 

[mac_1103]

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is it?

 

[Willy]

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is it?

Not the same thing, correct. However, assume someone did the panel incorrectly... An electrician always removed that faceplate and checks. Just to be sure.

And yeah, they must be out of phase. It should be wired that way at the panel. But you still check by removing the plate and also with a pocket gauge to further confirm.

 

[whoaru99]

And, to further continue my pedantic ways, LOL, the ubiqutious 240V split phase distribution is not two 120V legs out of phase combining to make 240V.

Rather, it's just the opposite. It's 240V with two 120V legs derived from a 240V center tapped transformer. 240V is had without using the "neutral" (the transformer CT) necessary to get 120V.

 

[Bobby_M]

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick (it'll blow the breaker fuses or perhaps just one, that is attached to the whatever).

It's a valid point if OP was asking about trying to make 240 volts from two 120v outlets (of unknown breaker origin). The chance of picking outlets that were L1 and L2 is arbitrary. He specifically called out breaker slot positions and they were vertically adjacent and that's why there was a 100% chance of it working.

I'm just clarifying to you why people didn't get your point.

By the way, if you hook up a 240v device to L1 and L1, it won't blow a breaker or do anything. The voltage supplied will be 0V and no current will flow.

 

[mashdar]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

I needed a sub panel because I have no vacant slots. Not a big expense relative to the whole job. Got two Nema 6-30 outlets, one outside, one in the garage.

The phasing for a single phase panel goes A B A B A B. Adjacent spaces are always opposite phases.

(edit: Was that a joke?)

 

[whoaru99]

Paradoxical, perhaps. Alluding to two phases, A and B, in a single phase panel.

 

[mashdar]

Paradoxical, perhaps. Alluding to two phases, A and B, in a single phase panel.

Depends on what you call zero. Personally, I'm happy using earth.

You want to really get some people upset? Start talking about two-phase power.

edit:
Novice: 1 phase, 2 phase, 3 phase. No big deal.
Journeyman: There is no such thing as 2-phase!
Master: Well, actually...

 

[whoaru99]

Depends on what you call zero. Personally, I'm happy using earth.

You want to really get some people upset? Start talking about two-phase power.

edit:
Novice: 1 phase, 2 phase, 3 phase. No big deal.
Journeyman: There is no such thing as 2-phase!
Master: Well, actually...

That's why I sorta why I bring it up as not really phases. There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power. But, the split phase system of topic ain't that.

 

[mashdar]

That's why I sorta why I bring it up as not really phases. There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power. But, the split phase system of topic ain't that.

Industry nomenclature is A phase, B phase, C phase. But if you really want to get pedantic, there are 2 phases available in 240/120 systems, and six phases available in 208Y120 systems ; )

edit: to elaborate:
AN: 0 degrees
AB: 60 degrees
BN: 120 degrees
BC: 180 degrees
CN: 240 degrees
CA: 300 degrees

 

[mac_1103]

There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power.

According to the always reliable Wikipedia, Center City Philadelphia and Hartford, CT still have active two phase power distribution systems.

 

[whoaru99]

Industry nomenclature is A phase, B phase, C phase. But if you really want to get pedantic, there are 2 phases available in 240/120 systems, and six phases available in 208Y120 systems ; )

edit: to elaborate:
AN: 0 degrees
AB: 60 degrees
BN: 120 degrees
BC: 180 degrees
CN: 240 degrees
CA: 300 degrees

I do not agree there are two phases in a 240V split phase system but I will no longer belabor the point.

 

[whoaru99]

Double post removed

 

[mashdar]

No, there are not two phases in a 240V split phase system. It's a single phase center-tapped.

This is getting super off topic! But if you have a center reference, you can derive 0 degrees (A phase) and 180 degrees (B phase). This is not as useful as having "two-phase" or three phase power, as you can't use it to guarantee rotation direction, but from a math/engineering perspective, there are two phasors available.

That we call it "single phase" is just jargon built up over the years. I imagine it has to do with windings in early 1900s generating equipment, but that's just a guess.

I absolutely agree that you'd never call 240/120 a "two phase" system, but thats a linguistic distinction more than a technical one : )

 

[whoaru99]

I absolutely agree that you'd never call 240/120 a "two phase" system, but thats a linguistic distinction more than a technical one

Sucked back in. There is nothing two phase about it. Zero, zilch, nada.

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-10/single-phase-power-systems/