Oxiclean...two years and no infections

[Rev2010]

but a faucet that is used often would likely have very low loads of bacteria that can cause problems.

Ever take your finger and rub the aerator screen under the faucet and find black mold on your finger? Want a more interesting experience, remove the aerator and separate out the plastic part with the screen. More than likely to find black mold in there on the vast majority of kitchen faucets. Not necessarily saying I think that presence is bad enough to cause infection - just stating the obvious that it often is there.


Rev.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Ever take your finger and rub the aerator screen under the faucet and find black mold on your finger? Want a more interesting experience, remove the aerator and separate out the plastic part with the screen. More than likely to find black mold in there on the vast majority of kitchen faucets. Not necessarily saying I think that presence is bad enough to cause infection - just stating the obvious that it often is there.


Rev.

I think that manganese mold is probably not a species that could survive in beer.

On a side note, I’ve had a thin ring of slime buildup in my auto syphon that came loose soaking in Oxyclean and then got soaked in sanitizer. I noticed the slime after I racked my wort into the fermentors and was pretty distressed. I suspect that the film in there was probably yeast from bottling, so I didn’t get a real infection when I used the syphon for wort, but now I take it apart as much as I can and pump a lot of cleaner and sanitizer through it. It’s those little things that don’t occur to you that get you I think.

 

[ncbrewer]

Charlie Talley had an interesting comment in this podcast:
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390da96899933961/bbr03-29-07.mp3?c_id=1452161&expiration=1502309332&hwt=0192dc634456fee5bb9035ebf1b67a2e

He said cleaning theoretically eliminates the need for sanitizing. Sanitizing is insurance.

I like the insurance.

 

[Druman07]

I use one step exclusively, which i believe is not marketed as a sanitizer, with very good results. I use oxi clean for all cleaning before using 1 step, and its very effective in cleaning plastic parts such as a hose that is all gunked up with krausen. One thing I am not sure about, what is the shelf life of One Step once it is mixed in water? Typically I mix it on brew day, and reserve some in a spray bottle, which i use a couple days later to spray my airlock after i remove the blow off tube. However, I wonder if the One Step is still effective after say 4 days.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I agree with the others. It's like driving without a seat belt. While it may never be a issue that doesn't mean it's good advise. Cheers

 

[kh54s10]

For me it was not the idea that Oxyclean works, rather the claim that one person not getting an infection for 2 years was "proof"
that others don't need anything else.

Then there was the mention of the cost of sanitizer. If you compare that to just Oxyclean it is far cheaper to sanitize. That is if you DON'T make 5 gallons each time to soak all your equipment. In the time that I used one bottle of Starsan at about $15, I have used at least 10 tubs of Oxyclean at about $7 - $9. If I didn't sanitize, I would have used quite a bit more Oxyclean.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

For me it was not the idea that Oxyclean works, rather the claim that one person not getting an infection for 2 years was "proof"
that others don't need anything else.
.

Yes 2 years is proof it works...what does it take to convince someone...5 years ...10 years...20 years

I ask you, Whats the threshold before you believes it works

 

[kh54s10]

Yes 2 years is proof it works...what does it take to convince someone...5 years ...10 years...20 years

I ask you, Whats the threshold before you believes it works

Maybe several thousand people saying the same thing. Also the lack of people posting that they, in fact, did get infections despite using Oxyclean with or without Starsan. It seem you made a blanket statement that the majority of the responses here dispute.

Added: Or something from the makers of Oxyclean stating that it can in fact be used as a sanitizer and that the item will still be sanitized after rinsing.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Maybe several thousand people saying the same thing.

What are several thousand people saying...that it doesnt work? I'd dispute that too. I used it and nothing else for two years....gunna tell me it doesn't get the job done...I dont think so.

I've gotten infections before using Oxiclean so clearly I must have air born bacteria and poor water as someone mentioned....yet somehow after using Oxiclean all that went away...I'd love to hear how that means it doesn't sanitize when I'm still using the same equipment that was infected without out issue

Several thousand people thought the world was flat...what happened there

 

[Blazinlow86]

What are several thousand people saying...that it doesnt work? I'd dispute that too. I used it and nothing else for two years....gunna tell me it doesn't get the job done...I dont think so.

I've gotten infections before using Oxiclean so clearly I must have air born bacteria and poor water as someone mentioned....yet somehow after using Oxiclean all that went away...I'd love to hear how that means it doesn't sanitize when I'm still using the same equipment that was infected without out issue

Several thousand people thought the world was flat...what happened there

This really isn't that hard to understand. Rinsing something after its been sanitized with something that is not sanitary *could* cause a infection and defeats the point of sanitizing it in the first place. That's it. Don't overthink it. In your case it hasn't. cheers

 

[grampamark]

Correlation does not equal causation. Just sayin'...

 

[hopjuice_71]

Wow, from the perspective of a microbiologist, this is one of the stranger threads I have read in a while. Yeah, Oxiclean will definitely clean and sanitize your stuff. Coincidentally, dish soap, hand soap, and Mr Clean (etc etc), are also a really good sanitizers. All need to be rinsed though.. ..thoroughly. And if you rinse with water having a high bacterial load, bad things MAY happen. Clean water, though, likely all will be well. It is not really rocket science, and I'm surprised there is such a great debate. JohnnyR seems to have clean water, which is awesome. I have pretty clean water and could MAYBE get away with rinsing with it. However, ALL water has some level of bacteria in it. It is just that pathogens must be below detectable levels. It doesn't mean that there are not microbes in there that MAY gain a foothold in fresh wort. Sanitizing with a no-rinse sanitizer, like star-san, is simply cheap insurance and good advice.

 

[brewgar]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/krausen-or-something-else.628013/

It could happen to you.

 

[shoengine]

Thanks for sharing your experience with oxyclean. It also does a great job removing the smells from laundry that has sat too long in the washer.

 

[shoengine]

This really isn't that hard to understand. Rinsing something after its been sanitized with something that is not sanitary *could* cause a infection and defeats the point of sanitizing it in the first place. That's it. Don't overthink it. In your case it hasn't. cheers

That is really the takeaway. Oxyclean may function as an antibacterial, but you are relying on your final rinse to be free of bacteria and virii. This is why extract brewers and partial mashers typically can get away with topping up.

Personally, I try to brew as if I was bound by food service ordinances.

 

[Soulshine2]

I was cleaning out my kegerator and had no bleach so I looked up using Oxiclean to kill mold...its been sitting awhile. I came across the link below

Theres been debate since day one whether or not Oxiclean is a sanitizer. I'm not a scientist but what I do know is I haven't used Star San or any other product to clean my entire setup(except beer lines) in over 2 years and havent gotten a single infection. And thats everything, nasty fermenters, old kegs, auto siphon, airlocks...everything.

THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect, whatever you want to call it,your entire setup.

Use it with confidence

Heres a link that breaks it down a bit....disregard the diapers unless thats your thing

https://parentingpatch.com/oxygen-bleach-disinfect-cloth-diapers/

oxi-clean is not a sanitizer . Star San is . neither are disinfectants.

 

[Soulshine2]

I agree that a lot of folks seem to think there is only one way to do things which is bogus.
I don't think anyone should be telling you that you HAVE to use certain methods as there are different ways to accomplish everything safely and effectively.

Officially Oxyclean is considered a cleaner and Starsan a sanatizer. Oxy is great for soaking your equipment to clean things and get the gunk off (and im sure it limits microbes to safe levels as well).

The problem lies when a person doesn't have access to sanitary water for rinsing, in this case boiled water or a no-rinse sanitizer should be used. I use Star San anyways as the final rinse because it has worked for me with no infections so far and I won't take any chances.
If your water is safe to rinse with then that is great and Oxy may very well be the only product you will need.

I will say this.. commercial breweries use lots and lots of sanitizer, my local microbrewery uses peroxide solution (I think) and lots of very hot water to wash things down with.

well said and i agree with your method...Oxi -clean the heavy stuff and a star san rinse.

 

[HTH1975]

You’re ALL wrong

I just use PAA (peracetic acid) - nothing will survive a fight with that stuff.

For soiling I use PBW, then rinse with boiling water.

Before brewing, it’s a rinse with PAA.

 

[505-Brewer]

Chlorine dioxide is also a great no rinse sanitizer.

Hey man if it works for you don’t change it. I used one step for a year w no issues. Ive used bleach in ancient history and the only issues I had there was not rinsing it enough.

Most municipal water is quite clean and if your pitching a healthy culture you’ll out compete any bugs. Only issue i see you might have could be with shelf life. Curious are you bottle conditioning or kegging your beers? If your bottle conditioning and can keep them a long time without issue that would suggest any bug count is very low indeed.

Its amazing people could even ever make beer before star san
LMAO.

This is a fun thread.

 

[NeverDie]

I want to thank the OP for his post, because at least it does add new information. It has made me interested in trying one-step, which seems to work on the same principle, but is a no rinse. I mean, can we all agree that having a cleanser that might *also* help sanitize (because of the peroxide) is a good bonus if you don't wash it off? And if you want to do Star San or some other sanitizer afterward, then it's like a double hit of sanitizing from two different angles. i.e. possibly more thorough with no extra work.

 

[Soulshine2]

You’re ALL wrong

I just use PAA (peracetic acid) - nothing will survive a fight with that stuff.

For soiling I use PBW, then rinse with boiling water.

Before brewing, it’s a rinse with PAA.

never put boiling water in a glass carboy.

 

[wilserbrewer]

My takeaway from this thread, it is likely better to clean well with a cleaner sanitizer and rinse with clean tap water, vs perhaps not cleaning as well and using a no rinse sanitizer such as star san? I think it is possible that sometimes people rely on power of Starsan and might neglect the cleaning chore.

If you are the type that actually cleans very well, and uses a no rinse sanitizer, well then you have surely done your due diligence and are likely more thorough than some here.

For all those that may shortcut the cleaning process occasionally, perhaps Johnny’s point is of value.

I’m guilty of sometimes just rinsing kegs well, sanitizing w/ star San and refilling, with a more thorough cleaning occasionally. In reading kegging
threads on HBT, I’m certainly not the only one shortcutting when it comes to religiously cleaning kegs every fill.

Perhaps in this scenario, an oxi clean soak and tap water rinse would be more effective than a rinse w water and star San treatment.

It really comes down to the nasty bugs in your tap water, and your comfort level in eliminating a step in the process.

If your gonna choose one, clean well or sanitize well....your probably better off cleaning well.

 

[mongoose33]

I was cleaning out my kegerator and had no bleach so I looked up using Oxiclean to kill mold...its been sitting awhile. I came across the link below

Theres been debate since day one whether or not Oxiclean is a sanitizer. I'm not a scientist but what I do know is I haven't used Star San or any other product to clean my entire setup(except beer lines) in over 2 years and havent gotten a single infection. And thats everything, nasty fermenters, old kegs, auto siphon, airlocks...everything.

THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect, whatever you want to call it,your entire setup.

Use it with confidence

Heres a link that breaks it down a bit....disregard the diapers unless thats your thing

https://parentingpatch.com/oxygen-bleach-disinfect-cloth-diapers/

I'm a scientist. One of the things good scientists know is that there are always multiple possible explanations for a result, and our job as scientists is to eliminate those explanations that aren't responsible for a result, leaving the one that is.

"THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect"

I think that's a tremendous disservice to new brewers including anyone looking for different ways to clean. Here's why:

There are many reasons why it appears to work for you. As a scientist, let me list a number of them:

1. You do get occasional infections, you just aren't aware of it or can't taste the result. Sure this isn't the case? How do you know? Maybe they're mild infections and you're confusing them with normal krausen.

2. Your specific situation is different than others', i.e., your setup is different, your equipment is different. Would you be able to say--with certainty--that this works in all setups, all circumstances, at all times? With certainty? No, you cannot, because you haven't tested it in all those different setups.

3. How about the temperature of the water used? How much contact time? Recirculating or not? Does it work the same regardless?

4. You may be leaving behind a film that is producing off-flavors, but you may or may not be able to detect them. That isn't the same as an infection, which is the only claim you're making, but it's a flaw that would show the method to be poor. Further, can you guarantee that others won't be able to perceive any off-flavors resulting from this approach? No.

5. This is a damning criticism: I've never read of any professional brewery using your "guaranteed" method as a cleaning process. One has to wonder why. If it's so good--so guaranteed--you'd think this would have swept the brewing industry at some point. Sounds a lot easier. So why hasn't it become standard operating procedure?

I'm all for offering up ideas, and certainly anyone who wants to try this, go right ahead. But when you offer a "guarantee" when you really have no idea whether it does universally work, I'm afraid you do a disservice to those who are new at this and presume you really do know enough to offer such a "guarantee."

You don't.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

5. This is a damning criticism: I've never read of any professional brewery using your "guaranteed" method as a cleaning process. One has to wonder why. If it's so good--so guaranteed--you'd think this would have swept the brewing industry at some point. Sounds a lot easier. So why hasn't it become standard operating procedure?

I'm all for offering up ideas, and certainly anyone who wants to try this, go right ahead. But when you offer a "guarantee" when you really have no idea whether it does universally work, I'm afraid you do a disservice to those who are new at this and presume you really do know enough to offer such a "guarantee."

You don't.

Point taken. A few things. First its been said the only thing guaranteed in this world is death and taxes....yet the word gets used quite a bit in the English language....so take it for what its worth. Two years infection free is enough of a guarantee for me. To say a batch is possibly infected and I cant pick up on it and somebody else can is a stretch...a big one. I've been doing this long enough to know what infected off taste is.

Secondly as far as damning criticism I've read numerous times on this site from people working at microbreweries that us homebrewers put WAY more emphasis on sanitation then they do. I've read one person just washes out there equipment with a hose and start all over again using NO sanitation. Thats not my words thats their words. The response was: "Its good practice for our new brewers to use proper sanitation practices"....So quite possibly theres way to much emphasis on sanitation to begin with and its "just good practice"

As far as Massive breweries like BMC are they cleaning their monstrous equipment with Star San? I have no idea. I would bet not.

 

[passedpawn]

Point taken. A few things. First its been said the only thing guaranteed in this world is death and taxes....yet the word gets used quite a bit in the English language....so take it for what its worth. Two years infection free is enough of a guarantee for me. To say a batch is possibly infected and I cant pick up on it and somebody else can is a stretch...a big one. I've been doing this long enough to know what infected off taste is.

Secondly as far as damning criticism I've read numerous times on this site from people working at microbreweries that us homebrewers put WAY more emphasis on sanitation then they do. I've read one person just washes out there equipment with a hose and start all over again using NO sanitation. Thats not my words thats their words. The response was: "Its good practice for our new brewers to use proper sanitation practices"....So quite possibly theres way to much emphasis on sanitation to begin with and its "just good practice"

As far as Massive breweries like BMC are they cleaning their monstrous equipment with Star San? I have no idea. I would bet not.

Uh, I'm not sure what pro brewer you were talking to, but I know some and they all use peracetic acid, and a lot of it. It's the same kind of sanatizer as starsan (acid). I'd guess that it's used at BMC breweries.

 

[passedpawn]

Uh, I'm not sure what pro brewer you were talking to, but I know some and they all use peracetic acid, and a lot of it. It's the same kind of sanatizer as starsan (acid). I'd guess that it's used at BMC breweries.

Woops. Peracetic acid is actually a strong biological oxidizer, similar to oxyclean (sodium percarbonate). I stand corrected (by me ).

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Woops. Peracetic acid is actually a strong biological oxidizer, similar to oxyclean (sodium percarbonate). I stand corrected (by me ).

It sounds like your pro brewers are essentially using Oxiclean....So there ya go. Pretty much sums up the whole thread. Its works for me for years and works for Pro brewers so I dont see where the argument comes from

It works on the homebrew level proven by me
It works on the pro level proven by you
And you'd assume it works on the The most massive breweries on the planet....sounds pretty conclusive....it works

 

[Qhrumphf]

Uh, I'm not sure what pro brewer you were talking to, but I know some and they all use peracetic acid, and a lot of it. It's the same kind of sanatizer as starsan (acid). I'd guess that it's used at BMC breweries.

There are some rubbish pros out there so it wouldn't surprise me.

Worthwhile pros are beyond fastidious. Once peracitic is cycled everything stays under pressure or otherwise sealed. Never even exposed to air (or at minimum positive CO2 flow for things like dry hopping). On the hot side, hit it with a hose and you're fine. Cold side is another world. If I saw a brewer just hose out a fermenter, that's it, they'd be fired on the spot.

Pros CIP with caustic to clean and peracetic acid to sanitize.

Loose parts, clamps, gaskets get soaking cleans (usually caustic but PBW or oxy would work and safer, but caustic is much easier to rinse), and when being used soaked in sanitizer and ferrules hit with it before connections. Some pros use StarSan here. I prefer iodophor. Peracitic acid works too. And then I like a spray bottle of 70% isopropyl immediately before connecting parts together.

 

[mongoose33]

Point taken. A few things. First its been said the only thing guaranteed in this world is death and taxes....yet the word gets used quite a bit in the English language....so take it for what its worth. Two years infection free is enough of a guarantee for me. To say a batch is possibly infected and I cant pick up on it and somebody else can is a stretch...a big one. I've been doing this long enough to know what infected off taste is.

Secondly as far as damning criticism I've read numerous times on this site from people working at microbreweries that us homebrewers put WAY more emphasis on sanitation then they do. I've read one person just washes out there equipment with a hose and start all over again using NO sanitation. Thats not my words thats their words. The response was: "Its good practice for our new brewers to use proper sanitation practices"....So quite possibly theres way to much emphasis on sanitation to begin with and its "just good practice"

As far as Massive breweries like BMC are they cleaning their monstrous equipment with Star San? I have no idea. I would bet not.

Well, I'm sure there are all sorts of different practices out there. All I'm saying is that if the approach you're using was demonstrably better, wouldn't they all be using it? And yes, to be fair, there's a certain amount of inertia in what people do and how receptive they are to change, but if it sped things up and cost less, I think they'd be all over it. It makes me wonder why not, and possibly it's simply related to the cost of dumping very large batches.

I've read of breweries using an acid wash that's much more aggressive than Star-San as we use it. So there are differences. I think I've read that the big boys do something like that. I'd think the bigger the batch, the more one would want to ensure things went right, given the money at risk. But who knows?

The beauty of home brewing is that people can do what they want. Your approach appears to work for you, and if you're happy with it, no reason to change.

I think, also, we need to be careful in looking at any one instance of something, the person saying that it's been fine for them, and assuming that it's actually working. It's like people saying that one doesn't need to concern oneself with water, because they don't do anything to it and it works fine.

Well, maybe. Maybe they happen to have perfect water for the styles they're brewing. Maybe their beer is actually not that good, but they don't know it (see related note below). We have to take everything we read online with a large grain of salt.

[related note: I'm a member of a homebrew group. People bring beer all the time that's....bad. We have competitions, and I judge for them from time to time. I can't believe people would ever enter some of that stuff. I wonder what's wrong with their water, ferm temp control, mash, whatever--and why they can't tell something's wrong. I don't look much to those people for ideas related to brewing better beer. ]

 

[Qhrumphf]

It sounds like your pro brewers are essentially using Oxiclean....So there ya go. Pretty much sums up the whole thread. Its works for me for years and works for Pro brewers so I dont see where the argument comes from

It works on the homebrew level proven by me
It works on the pro level proven by you
And you'd assume it works on the The most massive breweries on the planet....sounds pretty conclusive....it works

Peracetic acid is no-rinse. Oxyclean is not. They are not the same, they just have a similar kill agent. Anything that exposed to water on the pro level (unless heat pasteurizing with it) would be getting resanitized.

(Responsible) pros would *never* sani with oxyclean.

I'm calling this a troll thread.