Overly malty DIPA help

[thehopthief]

I recently brewed a double IPA with Amarillo, Citra and Mosaic hops. I was going for a very hop forward beer but with enough malt backbone to not be overwhelming. Unfortunately what I got was a very malt forward 9% beer with only a slight Mosaic aroma and trying to figure out why. Here's my grain bill. I ended up using some DME with 10 min left to bump the ABV as well.

Here's the hop list

I fermented in primary for 10 days, moved to secondary and dry hopped for 10 days. Bottled on day 20 and it was carbonated 2 weeks later and today is 3 weeks and moving rest to fridge.

Mashed at 149 for 75 min using BIAB method.

I'm thinking it has to do with my water profile

I think my sulfate to chloride should be higher for sure but this was my first attempt at all grain so I didn't modify the water. Any other thoughts?

 

[Sammy86]

Your late hop additions are not enough in my opinion. You need that 10 minute but you should also add a 5 minute and even a flameout addition to really get that aroma you're looking for. A hopstand at 180 degrees might not be a bad idea either.

 

[Yooper]

I recently brewed a double IPA with Amarillo, Citra and Mosaic hops. I was going for a very hop forward beer but with enough malt backbone to not be overwhelming. Unfortunately what I got was a very malt forward 9% beer with only a slight Mosaic aroma and trying to figure out why. Here's my grain bill. I ended up using some DME with 10 min left to bump the ABV as well. View attachment 695235
Here's the hop list
View attachment 695236

I fermented in primary for 10 days, moved to secondary and dry hopped for 10 days. Bottled on day 20 and it was carbonated 2 weeks later and today is 3 weeks and moving rest to fridge.

Mashed at 149 for 75 min using BIAB method.

I'm thinking it has to do with my water profile
View attachment 695240
I think my sulfate to chloride should be higher for sure but this was my first attempt at all grain so I didn't modify the water. Any other thoughts?

In addition to what Sammy said, you mash pH was probably higher than desired. You'll want to add more gypsum (calcium sulfate) and consider reducing the HCO3 if you need to to get a mash pH of 5.4 or so.

 

[thehopthief]

In addition to what Sammy said, you mash pH was probably higher than desired. You'll want to add more gypsum (calcium sulfate) and consider reducing the HCO3 if you need to to get a mash pH of 5.4 or so.

Thanks. My plan next beer is to add the following. I'm hoping this helps.

Any other thoughts? I do think I could've dry hopped more and added later in the fermenter which I'm probably over correcting in my next. Just don't want another only malt bomb.

 

[day_trippr]

Perhaps the OP could post a picture of a pour...

Cheers! (alliteration unintentional )

 

[thehopthief]

Perhaps the OP could post a picture of a pour...

Cheers! (alliteration unintentional )

Here's a pic. Just literally poured it now. Cold crashed for 2 days but no gelatin or anything so not super clear. Color is about what I expected. Maybe it just is not enough hops and modify the water profile.

 

[jrgtr42]

I'm not yet into the water profile thing -
but, IMO the grain bill looked pretty good - You said you added some DME - I presume it was light or extra light? Shouldn;t have done a lot. But next time, add in more base to bump it.
As far as the hops, Personally I'd cut back a bit on the bittering (60min) addition, maybe an oz of a relatively neutral bittering hop.
Dump the 30 min addition. maybe bring the 10min to 5, add a good charge for flameout / whirlpool.
IMO 10 days is too long for dry hop - just 2 or 3 should be plenty (unless that is 10 days into fermentation, in which case you should have a few days left?)

 

[day_trippr]

I don't see a big issue with the recipe.
I do see at least three golden opportunities for post-fermentation O2 damage, which would certainly explain the shift towards "malty" in spite of the hop bill.

Skip the secondary, don't do cold-crashes unless under tight O2-avoidance measures, and be wicked OC about bottling - if using a bucket be crazy careful when adding primer sugar not to stir in a bunch of air, and definitely want to CO2-purge bottles before filling and capping-on-foam...

Cheers!

 

[Iseneye]

That is a dark beer for 3% 20 crystal. I'd say cold side oxidation is likely source. You lose hop flavour and aroma and the malt becomes sweet.

With your grain bill I wouldn't expect malty to be the descriptor.

 

[thehaze]

Your recipe lacks a lot of hops for a DIPA. And the colour of the beer - and even with a slight haze - looks very dark. It might just be the way the photo was taken, lack of proper natural light, etc. - but it has that murky, brownish, oxidation colour. The water profile posted will yield a very soft, watery beer, which will not help make your hops pop.

 

[couchsending]

The beer is oxidized and doesn’t have near enough hops. The maltiness and lack of hop aroma/flavor has nothing to do with your water profile.

hop flavor and aroma is the first thing to go when beer is exposed to even micro amounts of oxygen. It’s very hard to make great hoppy beer if you don’t have Co2 and aren’t kegging. The amount of o2 exposure you get is staggering without it. Even then it’s still a very tedious process to keep o2 out all throughout the process. If kegging and Co2 is not an option definitely don’t secondary.

Your hop Bill is very out of whack for what a modern IIPA should be. You need a lot more hops. Get rid of the Citra and Mosaic at 60. Use Magnum, Warrior, Nugget, Columbus for IBUs instead. Move that Citra/Mosaic additions to WP or flameout and probably double them. Most “modern” IIPAs on the commercial scale would have the equivalent of 10-12oz in the dry hop for your size batch, not 2oz. Not saying you should go that high but I’d do at least 6.

But again if you can’t keep oxygen away using a boat load of hops in a beer is a bit like lighting money on fire.

 

[thehopthief]

I don't see a big issue with the recipe.
I do see at least three golden opportunities for post-fermentation O2 damage, which would certainly explain the shift towards "malty" in spite of the hop bill.

Skip the secondary, don't do cold-crashes unless under tight O2-avoidance measures, and be wicked OC about bottling - if using a bucket be crazy careful when adding primer sugar not to stir in a bunch of air, and definitely want to CO2-purge bottles before filling and capping-on-foam...

Cheers!

I have starting kegging so hopefully will avoid the priming sugar influence and will consider skipping secondary although I thought it was there to help clear the beer. Also have not of cold crashing as chance to introduce oxygen. Is that a thing? I typically just cold crash in the fermenter will airlock still in place so I'd think the seal is valid and nothing can get in.

Thanks everyone for your replies!

 

[eric19312]

Agree with everything above except that it is hard to make a good hoppy DIPA without CO2 and kegging. Most of this has already been said but here are my suggestions:

• Fix the water profile with some gypsum...doesn't need to be perfect I'd try 2 tsp in a five gallon batch
• Since you are using tap water make sure to treat it with campden to remove any chlorine/chloramines
• Get some cheap bittering hops for your 60 minute additions
• Dry hop when airlock stops bubbling, dry hop in the primary fermentor, and for no more than about 7 days. I you could cold crash without introducing oxygen I'd say even shorter dry hop. The mylar balloon trick on this page might work for you without committing to a whole kegging adventure, http://brulosophy.com/2018/05/10/7-methods-for-reducing-cold-side-oxidation-when-brewing-beer/#:~:text=Following a period of cold,its way to the beer.
• Don't take samples. Just skip that whole checking on the beer. Every sample you take is adding oxygen and once the yeast is done fermenting that oxygen will not have anywhere to go except into the beer. Just leave it alone until you are ready to bottle.
• Bottle quickly. Don't rush it and make mistakes but don't do it after drinking a few home brews or turn it into a social event. Mimimize the time time beer is out of your primary fermentor and not in sealed bottles.
• Oxygen absorbing (not just barrier) caps can help. If you use them don't sanitize them or get them wet before bottling.

Good luck you absolutely can make excellent hoppy beer without kegs and closed transfers, but you have to be careful about it.


Edited to add...for OP I just read you have gotten into kegging. OK consider the above for other newbies.

 

[eric19312]

I have starting kegging so hopefully will avoid the priming sugar influence and will consider skipping secondary although I thought it was there to help clear the beer. Also have not of cold crashing as chance to introduce oxygen. Is that a thing? I typically just cold crash in the fermenter will airlock still in place so I'd think the seal is valid and nothing can get in.

Thanks everyone for your replies!

If you are kegging you might as well learn do do closed transfers into properly purged kegs. Regarding the cold crashing I still suggest reading that site linked regarding cold crashing. When you are done fermenting most of the gas above your beer is CO2. Oxygen is slowly getting in there but not much yet. Then you open the fermentor and add dry hops, now there is quite a bit of Oxygen in the gas above the beer. But if the beer was recently done fermenting it still has a lot of CO2 dissolved in the beer and the hops will create nucleation sites and push a lot of gas out of the beer, once again reducing the O2 in the head space. But now if you cold crash the gas in the headspace will contract (think about taking a balloon outside on a winter day) create negative pressure in the headspace and pull atmospheric gas into the headspace. Now you have cold side oxygen exposure that is going to be be difficult to eliminate.

Also...You mentioned the priming sugar influence...that is actually the mechanism that explains why homebrewers have been able to make very good bottled beer for decades. Refermentation in the bottle does eliminate some if not all of the oxygen that got introduced racking into the bottling bucket or into the bottles.

 

[thehopthief]

If you are kegging you might as well learn do do closed transfers into properly purged kegs. Regarding the cold crashing I still suggest reading that site linked regarding cold crashing. When you are done fermenting most of the gas above your beer is CO2. Oxygen is slowly getting in there but not much yet. Then you open the fermentor and add dry hops, now there is quite a bit of Oxygen in the gas above the beer. But if the beer was recently done fermenting it still has a lot of CO2 dissolved in the beer and the hops will create nucleation sites and push a lot of gas out of the beer, once again reducing the O2 in the head space. But now if you cold crash the gas in the headspace will contract (think about taking a balloon outside on a winter day) create negative pressure in the headspace and pull atmospheric gas into the headspace. Now you have cold side oxygen exposure that is going to be be difficult to eliminate.

Also...You mentioned the priming sugar influence...that is actually the mechanism that explains why homebrewers have been able to make very good bottled beer for decades. Refermentation in the bottle does eliminate some if not all of the oxygen that got introduced racking into the bottling bucket or into the bottles.

Thanks for these replies and that link. I never thought about oxidation during cold crashing but that makes sense. Although for me even though oxygen is sucked in the volume of co2 will shrink but still be there and since it is heavier than o2 shouldn't it be what is sitting on top of the beer to protect it? Assuming of course there is some co2 present which I believe there typically is because you almost always get a few airlock bubbles moving from fermentation to cold crash. Maybe just because there's oxygen now present when transferring to keg/bottles you can get contaminated easier?

 

[eric19312]

Thanks for these replies and that link. I never thought about oxidation during cold crashing but that makes sense. Although for me even though oxygen is sucked in the volume of co2 will shrink but still be there and since it is heavier than o2 shouldn't it be what is sitting on top of the beer to protect it? Assuming of course there is some co2 present which I believe there typically is because you almost always get a few airlock bubbles moving from fermentation to cold crash. Maybe just because there's oxygen now present when transferring to keg/bottles you can get contaminated easier?

No the CO2 blanket theory really doesn't work. No need to start a new thread on that you can find plenty of them here in HBT and elsewhere on the internet. The bottom line is relatively small amount of cold side oxygen seems to be really damaging to beer stability. The aroma and flavor compounds we want to get out of hops (as opposed to the isomerized alpha acids that make the beer bitter) seem to especially suffer. It's why hops come in nitrogen flushed sealed oxygen barrier bags.

 

[norrismj]

You nbever mentioned the yeast you used as that can bring a malt forward style.

 

[thehopthief]

You nbever mentioned the yeast you used as that can bring a malt forward style.

I used white labs Cali ale WLP001 so I don't think so but you're right.

 

[norrismj]

Thanks, That yeast should bring out the hops more than malt. so not the culprit. A lot of good info on the other responses.

 

[Bobby_M]

Agree with everything said so far. Dry hops should be about 4-6 ounces but the biggest problem is oxygen. Dry hop just before fermentation is completed and get them in there quick and shut the lid right away. Work on full liquid then CO2 purging the keg and get that closed transfer going. Oxygen steals hops right out of your beer and judging by the color, it is way damaged already.