Opinions Please. Can I/Should I........?

[DNKDUKE]

@stpug

I took a gravity last night per your instructions. It was/is 1.022

Here is the recipe information.
OG - 1.083
FG - 1.019
IBU - 33
29.79 SRM - what I have is as black as night

12# 2 row
1.25# Roasted Barley - I used 1.5#
1# Aromatic Malt
.5# Crystal 60
.5# Belgian Chocolate Malt
.25# Kiln Coffee Malt - I used .3#
.66 oz Columbus hops boiled for 90 min
WLP007 - I did a (2) gallon starter
64 oz maple syrup
I also added .3# of Vienna, only used 32 oz of syrup in secondary and substituted .75 oz of magnum pellet and .5 oz of magnum leaf
mashed with 1.45 qts per # grain of maple sapfor 75 min - beginning temp 153 degF - ending temp 143 degF
sparged with1.5 gallons of water added to 4 gallons of maple sap @ 185degF
boiled for 100 min - all hops @90 min - Irish moss @ 10 min - cooled to 66 degF and pitched WLP007
Pre boil gravity was 1.085 @ 8.5 gal
Primary erupted like Vesuvius for 5 days then calmed - total primary was 14 days
racked onto 32 oz of freshly made maple syrup which sat for another 14 days.
bottled with .33# of simplicity and we are where we are at now.
Now you know what I know.

 

[joshesmusica]

well you found the sickeningly sweet answer in the 1.022 fg. and you also learned not to take gravity readings after fermentation unless with a hydrometer.

at this point you could try to let it condition some and see if it helps. did you use a priming calculator when bottling? if so then i would say to give it time to carbonate fully (if it's not by the 3 week mark, it brings up the question of what temp you're conditioning at), and with a little more carbonation it should help a little. at this point though, there's not really much you can do to help out that residual sweetness, and that level of FG usually comes with the territory when brewing high abv beers.

 

[Gavin C]

Sounds like you have reached the alcohol tolerance of the yeast and added a bunch of simple sugar. The yeast cannot work ay more in the high alcohol environment.

Options

1: Dump it
2: Add another yeast strain to chew up the sugar making the beer dry and boosting the already whopping ABV higher still. A champagne yeast or something similar might be an idea. ($0.80 cost)
3: Drink as is

I know what I would do.

Your idea of pouring the bottles back into a FV is not a good one. There are a variety of reasons why, chief among them would be inevitable oxidation and resulting off flavor.

 

[Hello]

Something is off.

Your OG was 1.083 and your PRE-BOIL gravity was 1.085?
No way you boiled for 100 minutes OR you took a reading somewhere that was wrong.

That said, if your OG is definitely 1.083 and you only got down to 1.020 then that will give you the sweetness. I also would have increased hops to provide a bit more balance. 33 IBUs on a beer like that will be all but non-existant.

Also, I realize your original post said OG was 1.085, but you mentioned 1.083 below that.
I would dump it. I don't think pouring it back into a bucket to ferment more will do it any good after you oxidize the beer.

 

[stpug]

You're in a tight spot for sure, primarily because it's already bottled and it's low carbonation.

Option:
There's a good chance there are lots of simple sugars remaining because of the late addition maple syrup and simplicity priming sugar. This, at least, give you the possibility of carbing up with some champagne yeast (perhaps too much if the yeast can consume a lot of the sugars and create bottle bombs). Carbonic acid plus reduction of gravity points will certainly bring out a better balance but will it be enough? I don't know.

Option:
Since the batch is an experiment anyway then you could very carefully pour all bottles back into a bucket with another yeast strain to see if you can get it to attenuate some more. The chances are slim on this option, IMO.

Option:
You could use this as a blending batch for something like a black and tan - the problem being that you're blended beer will lose some carbonation qualities due to the low carbonation of this beer. It would probably be worth blending with a fairly carbonated, bitter, and dry pale beer to counter-balance the sticky mess you're working with.

Option:
You could brew a smaller batch of beer with the specific intentions of blending this beer with it in the primary fermenter. Brew the beer to be dry and with some extra bitterness using a high attenuating yeast (Belle Saison for example), and give yourself a couple extra gallons of space in the fermenter to add this beer to it. If you brew it very pale then you may aim for something like a brown saison. When primary is at it's peak then add almost half of your bottles to the fermenting batch, making sure to sterilize the lips of each bottle you add (a flame/lighter works great for this). The actively fermenting yeast will uptake any oxygen you add to the beer and the nature of Belle Saison will certainly attenuate a lot of your sugars in the bottled beer.

Being an experiment and relatively low cost of the last option (brown saison), I might opt for that choice. I think the resulting beer might actually work out well if you can keep contamination out of the fermenter which just means you need to be diligent when adding the bottled beer to the batch. Flame the lips of the bottles and don't but the entire bottle over the fermenter - just the lip.

 

[DNKDUKE]

well you found the sickeningly sweet answer in the 1.022 fg. and you also learned not to take gravity readings after fermentation unless with a hydrometer.

at this point you could try to let it condition some and see if it helps. did you use a priming calculator when bottling? if so then i would say to give it time to carbonate fully (if it's not by the 3 week mark, it brings up the question of what temp you're conditioning at), and with a little more carbonation it should help a little. at this point though, there's not really much you can do to help out that residual sweetness, and that level of FG usually comes with the territory when brewing high abv beers.

OK..............
now I need a lesson on what the gravity numbers mean. If the FG of the recipe is supposed to be ~1.019 and my FG is 1.022, that is .003 or 3 thousandths off. Knowing that the significant numbers are to the right of the decimal that's still not alot OR am I not looking at it correctly?

This beer as it stands right now, is carbed - not like id like it to be - but nonetheless carbed. Yes I used the candi syrup calculator. Right now the bottles are sitting in my bathroom as its the warmest room in the house ~70degF

 

[DNKDUKE]

Something is off.

Your OG was 1.083 and your PRE-BOIL gravity was 1.085?
No way you boiled for 100 minutes OR you took a reading somewhere that was wrong.

That said, if your OG is definitely 1.083 and you only got down to 1.020 then that will give you the sweetness. I also would have increased hops to provide a bit more balance. 33 IBUs on a beer like that will be all but non-existant.

Also, I realize your original post said OG was 1.085, but you mentioned 1.083 below that.
I would dump it. I don't think pouring it back into a bucket to ferment more will do it any good after you oxidize the beer.

1.083 was the recipe target - 1.085 is what I got. (did I mix up some of the nomenclature?)
I did increase the hops - from .66oz Columbus(recipe) to 1.25 oz of magnum

 

[DNKDUKE]

You're in a tight spot for sure, primarily because it's already bottled and it's low carbonation.

Option:
There's a good chance there are lots of simple sugars remaining because of the late addition maple syrup and simplicity priming sugar. This, at least, give you the possibility of carbing up with some champagne yeast (perhaps too much if the yeast can consume a lot of the sugars and create bottle bombs). Carbonic acid plus reduction of gravity points will certainly bring out a better balance but will it be enough? I don't know.

Option:
Since the batch is an experiment anyway then you could very carefully pour all bottles back into a bucket with another yeast strain to see if you can get it to attenuate some more. The chances are slim on this option, IMO.

Option:
You could use this as a blending batch for something like a black and tan - the problem being that you're blended beer will lose some carbonation qualities due to the low carbonation of this beer. It would probably be worth blending with a fairly carbonated, bitter, and dry pale beer to counter-balance the sticky mess you're working with.

Option:
You could brew a smaller batch of beer YOU MEAN LIKE A GALLON? with the specific intentions of blending this beer with it in the primary fermenter. Brew the beer to be dry and with some extra bitterness using a high attenuating yeast (Belle Saison for example), and give yourself a couple extra gallons of space in the fermenter to add this beer to it. If you brew it very pale then you may aim for something like a brown saison. When primary is at it's peak then add almost half of your bottles to the fermenting batch, making sure to sterilize the lips of each bottle you add (a flame/lighter works great for this). The actively fermenting yeast will uptake any oxygen you add to the beer and the nature of Belle Saison will certainly attenuate a lot of your sugars in the bottled beer.

Being an experiment and relatively low cost of the last option (brown saison), I might opt for that choice. I think the resulting beer might actually work out well if you can keep contamination out of the fermenter which just means you need to be diligent when adding the bottled beer to the batch. Flame the lips of the bottles and don't but the entire bottle over the fermenter - just the lip.

There is another option - cook with it.......

I have the grain milled and everything except the Belle Saison yeast ready to brew a SMaSH this weekend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.......can you smell the smoke?

 

[DNKDUKE]

I have listened to all of you for over a year on this site and truly respect all y'alls opinion.
I am grateful for everyone's input - i just wanted to say that.

So I have another question...are you saying that this yeast (WLP007) was not a good choice even with a (2) gallon starter?

 

[stpug]

There is another option - cook with it.......

I have the grain milled and everything except the Belle Saison yeast ready to brew a SMaSH this weekend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.......can you smell the smoke?

Cooking with it would work too.

I was thinking more along the lines of about half batch (assuming 5 gallons is typical) then brew a 3 gallon batch and add 2 gallons worth of the bottled beer at the appropriate time.

I have listened to all of you for over a year on this site and truly respect all y'alls opinion.
I am grateful for everyone's input - i just wanted to say that.

So I have another question...are you saying that this yeast (WLP007) was not a good choice even with a (2) gallon starter?

I see nothing wrong with that yeast and the 2 gallon starter was good. I think the main issue you ran into was very low BU:GU ratio, slight underattenuation, unusual brewing adjuncts, and large proportion of complex sugars that the yeast couldn't deal with. All things that can be resolved for a future attempt IMO.

 

[sablesurfer]

I am thinking about opening 3/4 of the bottles and dumping them in a sanitized carboy with the slurry that I saved from this beers primary. Has anyone ever tried/done this? Is this a viable option for a beer that I think I pulled out of fermentation too early?

The standard answer to pouring into a bucket is way too much oxidization will happen. Best responses are either to put one of those carb tabs or add yeast to each bottle and recap.

 

[DNKDUKE]

I see nothing wrong with that yeast and the 2 gallon starter was good. I think the main issue you ran into was very low BU:GU ratio, slight underattenuation, unusual brewing adjuncts, and large proportion of complex sugars that the yeast couldn't deal with. All things that can be resolved for a future attempt IMO.

BU:GU ratio? spell this for me please.

 

[stpug]

BU:GU ratio? spell this for me please.

Bittering Unit to Gravity Unit ratio. It's a way of "visualizing" the balance between the bitterness and sweetness (i.e. gravity) of the beer prior to brewing it.

For example:
1.085 OG
33 IBU

33:85 (33/85) = 0.39

American Wheat Beers have a general range of: 0.38-0.45
American Pale Ales: 0.67-0.83
American IPAs: 0.71-1.00

You can see that you fall at the bottom end of a "wheat beer" for example (I'm sure there are several more styles that also fall in this range but generally not high gravity beers). In other words, the balance you were aiming for with your recipe put your bitterness balance at about that level. That's fairly low for many styles and could explain why the level of bittering you imparted to your beer didn't quite balance the sweetness.

Now, that's not the whole picture, obviously. Going one step further is to consider the finishing gravity of the beer. Once you've visualized the amount of bittering balance you will be obtaining in your beer you need to estimate the amount of excess residual sweetness obtained from your attenuation level. In this regard, you ended up with more residual sweetness than expected both due to attenuation and complex sugars. This added to the excessive sweetness.

Had this been in a fermenter you could have pretty easily balanced things out with a hop tea to up the bitterness to a level that better matched the sweetness. The problem is they're already bottled, thus the need to look for another solution.

 

[joshesmusica]

Bittering Unit to Gravity Unit ratio. It's a way of "visualizing" the balance between the bitterness and sweetness (i.e. gravity) of the beer prior to brewing it.

For example:
1.085 OG
33 IBU

33:85 (33/85) = 0.39

American Wheat Beers have a general range of: 0.38-0.45
American Pale Ales: 0.67-0.83
American IPAs: 0.71-1.00

You can see that you fall at the bottom end of a "wheat beer" for example (I'm sure there are several more styles that also fall in this range but generally not high gravity beers). In other words, the balance you were aiming for with your recipe put your bitterness balance at about that level. That's fairly low for many styles and could explain why the level of bittering you imparted to your beer didn't quite balance the sweetness.

Now, that's not the whole picture, obviously. Going one step further is to consider the finishing gravity of the beer. Once you've visualized the amount of bittering balance you will be obtaining in your beer you need to estimate the amount of excess residual sweetness obtained from your attenuation level. In this regard, you ended up with more residual sweetness than expected both due to attenuation and complex sugars. This added to the excessive sweetness.

Had this been in a fermenter you could have pretty easily balanced things out with a hop tea to up the bitterness to a level that better matched the sweetness. The problem is they're already bottled, thus the need to look for another solution.

but what happens if i have the exact same bu:gu ratio in two beers, but one ends up at 1.020, and the other ends up at 1.010? as you stated it's going to mess with the ratio. that's why i like this formula:

http://www.madalchemist.com/relative_bitterness.html

and the chart that goes with it:
http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_corrected.html

 

[stpug]

Now, that's not the whole picture, obviously. Going one step further is to consider the finishing gravity of the beer. Once you've visualized the amount of bittering balance you will be obtaining in your beer you need to estimate the amount of excess residual sweetness obtained from your attenuation level.

but what happens if i have the exact same bu:gu ratio in two beers, but one ends up at 1.020, and the other ends up at 1.010?

I alluded to this in my original post, but never really fleshed it out in full detail. I would expect the lower FG beer will be perceived as more bitter than the higher FG beer. This is why you need to have an idea of where your FG will end up so you can adjust the ratio up or down for your intended beer. Then, of course, there are the situations where things just don't go your way and you end up with a higher (or lower) FG than anticipated. In the case of a higher FG, you can boil up a hop tea to help balance things. In the case of a lower FG (i.e. too bitter) beer you can attempt to sweeten it up using various methods.

 

[joshesmusica]

I alluded to this in my original post, but never really fleshed it out in full detail. I would expect the lower FG beer will be perceived as more bitter than the higher FG beer. This is why you need to have an idea of where your FG will end up so you can adjust the ratio up or down for your intended beer. Then, of course, there are the situations where things just don't go your way and you end up with a higher (or lower) FG than anticipated. In the case of a higher FG, you can boil up a hop tea to help balance things. In the case of a lower FG (i.e. too bitter) beer you can attempt to sweeten it up using various methods.

yeah, sorry, had a couple by now and clicked reply before i was finished fleshing out my comment haha. now it's edited.

 

[DNKDUKE]

You can see that you fall at the bottom end of a "wheat beer" for example (I'm sure there are several more styles that also fall in this range but generally not high gravity beers). In other words, the balance you were aiming for with your recipe put your bitterness balance at about that level. That's fairly low for many styles and could explain why the level of bittering you imparted to your beer didn't quite balance the sweetness.

BUT..........My IBUs were not 33. I changed from 2/3 of an ounce of Columbus to 1.25 ounces of Magnum. According to Brewers friend calculations my attained IBUs were/are 52.23. That would put my BU:GU ratio at 61.4. Below the low end of the Pale Ale area.

So I'm not trying to argue a point but only giving facts and especially trying to learn from all of this great information.
Ive gotta say stpug, that your solution is the closest to what I wanted to hear and isn't that what life, for many of us is - getting a solution we like........not that @HELLO, @joshesmusica, and any of the others havent given good information - they have. But if I'm going to dump beer, then I have no beer - If I'm going to open every bottle and put a smidgeon of yeast in them, I believe I'm still going to get lousy beer because I've done this and it hasn't worked for me - so I still have no beer.
I understand the oxidation problem - but - it's kinda like a "wet paint" sign on a park bench. Sometimes you just gotta go and touch the bench.(anyone who'd like to use that quote..it'll cost ya $10) :cross:

 

[Hello]

BUT..........My IBUs were not 33. I changed from 2/3 of an ounce of Columbus to 1.25 ounces of Magnum. According to Brewers friend calculations my attained IBUs were/are 52.23. That would put my BU:GU ratio at 61.4. Below the low end of the Pale Ale area.

So I'm not trying to argue a point but only giving facts and especially trying to learn from all of this great information.
Ive gotta say stpug, that your solution is the closest to what I wanted to hear and isn't that what life, for many of us is - getting a solution we like........not that @HELLO, @joshesmusica, and any of the others havent given good information - they have. But if I'm going to dump beer, then I have no beer - If I'm going to open every bottle and put a smidgeon of yeast in them, I believe I'm still going to get lousy beer because I've done this and it hasn't worked for me - so I still have no beer.
I understand the oxidation problem - but - it's kinda like a "wet paint" sign on a park bench. Sometimes you just gotta go and touch the bench.(anyone who'd like to use that quote..it'll cost ya $10) :cross:

I looked at the IBUs of the recipe you posted. It was assumed that was your recipe that you followed. In that case, you just have a beer that sounds rather undrinkable. You could try to make something out of it or cook with it.

 

[DNKDUKE]

I looked at the IBUs of the recipe you posted. It was assumed that was your recipe that you followed. In that case, you just have a beer that sounds rather undrinkable. You could try to make something out of it or cook with it.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[DNKDUKE]

So.
I have decided to try to save this beer. Knowing full well that I may have totally wasted not only 3-6 hours of my life but all the ingredients as well, this is what's going on in this learning experience.

I took @stpug 's advice and made a SMaSH last night - well really a D-MaSH here is the recipe for those who care.

10# of American 2 row
.75# of crystal 60
2 oz of cascade leaf at 45min
2 oz of cascade leaf at 20 min
belle saison yeast.

Simple batch sparge with1.4 qt/lb + the sparge - total of 7.5 gal.
dough in at 165F
rest at 154F for 60 min
collected approx 6.25 gallon of wort
boiled for 60 min
chilled to 68 deg
re-hydrated yeast with 80 deg h2o and pitched on top of 3 gallon of wort. (the rest I racked to a second carboy and pitched safale 05 on top)
temp control at 68F overnight - increased temp to 70F this morning. I may increase again after work to 73 - 74F.
waiting for high krausen and then will CAREFULLY open 2.5 gallons of impatiently made beer in bottles sanitize/flame the tops of the bottles and gently pour this down the side of the carboy.
I have low expectations for this learning experience. I will count this as successful if I offer this to a friend/ beer snob, they take a sip, and tell me it's just OK.

 

[DNKDUKE]

ah ha ha ha ha ha ha........

 

[Takuie]

Im interested to see how it turns out. Worse case, you have a couple of gallons of beer to cook/marinade with. Would be a great marinade for ribs or chicken...just sayin.

I'm interested to see how it turns out. I'm kind of an against the grain type of person so pouring it back in and mixing with another beer definately goes with my methodology style.

 

[DNKDUKE]

I'm kind of an against the grain type of person so pouring it back in and mixing with another beer definately goes with my methodology style.

If you don't ask the question "may I" or "can I", the answer is always a resounding NO. If you're not willing to take risks and go "against the grain" (ha, I kill me), then you'll get the same result as everyone else got.
This is a hobby.
Hobbies are supposed to be fun.

That does not mean that you shouldn't listen to others with more experience than you - you should - but, on a more serious note.....I have regretted decisions I have made to not pursue opportunities in my life because I listened to a (so called) expert.
Sometimes when you see a "WET PAINT" sign, you gotta go against all popular opinion and touch the thing to see if the paint is indeed still wet.

 

[DNKDUKE]

The latest...

I have ramped the temp over the last 2-3 days. This is now sitting since last night at 80degF and is softly chugging away. The krausen is not large - it is actually very soft looking - like the nice thick head on a perfectly carbonated belgian.

So I'm back to questions...
I WILL leave this alone for as long as it takes to reach FG.

Should this stay at 80deg or should I at some point start to bring the temp back down?

 

[stpug]

I would guess that at 80F you should get to a reasonable final gravity within a week. I would say leaving it at elevated temperatures for a week after adding your bottles should suffice, but you'd want to get a sample to confirm gravity and taste. If the result falls within the realm of expectations then there should be no reason to keep at the elevated temperatures.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Krausen has fallen. :rockin:
Still bublin'. :rockin:
Will take gravity reading very soon.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Took a sample last night. gravity read 1.012.
Tasted exactly the opposite of the cloyingly sweetness that it was - actually did not taste infected...there's no visible infection in the carboy; not a cardboard taste.....whatever. No sweetness, no malt taste, not a hops bitterness...
Turned the temp down from 80degF to 64degF this morning. It'll take awhile for it to get there.
I'm going to let it sit....
Now I'm ready to consider dumping it.
Ah, to bottle or not to bottle. That is the question.

All y'all, please chime in.

 

[stpug]

I would suggest bottling.

As I understand it: It's fairly well attenuated [good]. It is not excessively sweet [good], nor is it too bitter [meh but fixable]. The malt character is subdued [US 2row does that but still good]. It does not seem infected [good] and does not seem oxidized [good]. This sounds like a beer worth bottling and (hopefully) drinking.

 

[DNKDUKE]

I would suggest bottling.

As I understand it: It's fairly well attenuated [good]. It is not excessively sweet [good], nor is it too bitter [meh but fixable]. The malt character is subdued [US 2row does that but still good]. It does not seem infected [good] and does not seem oxidized [good]. This sounds like a beer worth bottling and (hopefully) drinking.

It's not that it's not excessively sweet - it's that it's not sweet at all.

My next question is: what will bottling do to the flavor? I will use Simplicity to carbonate.

 

[stpug]

It's not that it's not excessively sweet - it's that it's not sweet at all.

My next question is: what will bottling do to the flavor? I will use Simplicity to carbonate.

Sweetness is somewhat dependent on mood and what you've been eating/drinking recently. Sometimes a dry beer can taste lightly sweet and vice-versa. Grab a handful of potato chips, pretzels, or the like and drink some of the beer along them. Then grab a handful of cereal and drink along side that - the perception of the same beer will change. I guess I'm just trying to say that perception changes depending on various circumstances.

Bottling will add the carbonation. Carbonation does several things for a beer's overall character. It adds mouthfeel which makes the perception a little bigger, fuller, and/or richer. It adds carbonic acid which enhances a "crisp" character to the beer. It creates the foam of a beer which visually makes the beer more appealing. The foam helps volatilize some of the aromatics of the beer (i.e. push them out into the aroma) so they are better perceived through smell. Smells/aromatics greatly enhance taste so with more smells comes more taste/flavor. Carbonation can change the character of a beer significantly, or it can be subtle, BUT it WILL change.

As for bottling with Simplicity, why not go simple with just some plain table sugar or the traditional dextrose. Table sugar and dextrose are well established in their carbonating features and I cannot say the same about simplicity. I would suspect that simplicity would work fine and normal, but I would still suggest the traditional homebrewers method of dextrose or table sugar.