Opinions Please. Can I/Should I........?

[DNKDUKE]

OK.... All y'all to me, are the experts, so......let's say I'm still an impatient brewer and I pulled a beer out of primary and racked into secondary too early. When I secondaried, I racked on top of a quart of maple syrup and some yeast nutrient and made sure that I sucked out a little of the trub into secondary. When I did this, the gravity was 1.045 from an OG of 1.085. (I know, I know...:smack

Question: Since I don't know how much more yeast I added in the racking and am afraid that this won't reach a decent gravity, OR worse yet, not carbonate properly, can I/should I introduce more yeast (which I saved from primary) into the carboy at this time or just let it go?

It's sitting in a temp controlled fridge at 63deg F
Yeast is WLP007

 

[m00ps]

Let it sit for a while. Since you racked it so early, the yeast will be more active and there will be more in suspension. Theyll probably pick back up unless they cannot tolerate that high a gravity

Next time: just dump the maple syrup into the primary. Much easier and less risk of infection / oxidation

 

[wi_brewer]

I'd wait before doing anything. If the gravity was still 1.045 then it has a long way to go and there should be plenty of yeast in suspension.

 

[brewprint]

The yeast should compensate and reproduce itself as needed. There's not really a whole lot of reasons why that wouldn't happen. It just may take a little while longer.

If you're worried take it out of the fridge and place it in a 70 degree or so room.

 

[passedpawn]

Add more yeast. I'd do it right away. There's no reason not too. Get a starter going if possible, or just buy two or three vials. I'm concerned that by racking the beer to secondary you've introduced a bunch of O2 and bacteria (it's always present) and, with all that sugar still available, you risk problems.

I want to rant about secondaries and screwing with the beer before it's done, but I think you know all that already. Good luck.

 

[Psylocide]

How long was it in primary? A couple days?

 

[DNKDUKE]

How long was it in primary? A couple days?

14 days
I made a (2) gallon beer starter rather than a regular starter.
The WLP007 too off on this beer like a volcano for the first week. then all but stopped. I tried to rouse is with gentle stirring to no avail, so I secondaried. I have not touched it since (about 10 days)

 

[DNKDUKE]

Add more yeast. I'd do it right away. There's no reason not too. Get a starter going if possible, or just buy two or three vials. I'm concerned that by racking the beer to secondary you've introduced a bunch of O2 and bacteria (it's always present) and, with all that sugar still available, you risk problems.

I want to rant about secondaries and screwing with the beer before it's done, but I think you know all that already. Good luck.

I do..........

I have approx. (1) L of yeast saved. Can I just re-introduce the yeast or are you sticking with the 2-3 vial starter?

There are no visible signs of infection.

 

[DNKDUKE]

how long was it in primary? A couple days?

lol

 

[kombat]

Wait a sec ... it's been fermenting for 2 weeks, and it's only down to 1.045? That doesn't seem right. How are you measuring the gravity? Are you using a refractometer by any chance?

 

[Psylocide]

I haven't made a beer over 1.070, but I would think that it would have fermented out further than that in 14 days. I could be wrong though, I have no experience with that yeast or OG.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Wait a sec ... it's been fermenting for 2 weeks, and it's only down to 1.045? That doesn't seem right. How are you measuring the gravity? Are you using a refractometer by any chance?

(sheepishly)...yes...

 

[DNKDUKE]

(tongue-in-cheek) ...but I love my refractometer - it has a pretty blue line and I don't have to squink (popeye) to read it....

 

[Psylocide]

(tongue-in-cheek) ...but I love my refractometer - it has a pretty blue line and I don't have to squink (popeye) to read it....

Well, you need to do the conversion then... I think alcohol messes with the readout.

Unless you already know this.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/learn/resources/refractometer-calculator/

 

[PoppinCaps]

Beat me to it...

 

[DNKDUKE]

Well according to this calculator, it's done. 1.005

 

[Psylocide]

Problem solved then, eh?

 

[DNKDUKE]

I will take a gravity when I get home tonight and because I'm going to do that with a refracto meter, I will plug the number into the calculator.
Results forthcoming.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Problem solved then, eh?

Maybe, I'll see what the number looks like tonight.

:rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

passedpawn: I was heading toward your advice when I got this refractometer thing. If the gravity is not to my liking, I will be using your suggestion.

 

[passedpawn]

Maybe, I'll see what the number looks like tonight.

:rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

passedpawn: I was heading toward your advice when I got this refractometer thing. If the gravity is not to my liking, I will be using your suggestion.

I have a refractometer. I gave up getting it to read properly after fermentation. I'd cal it for one beer, the next beer it would be way off again. Hydrometer is the only way.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Ok.
The current gravity is 1.005.
So the next question is do I condition in the secondary and then bottle OR do I bottle now and let it sit for 4-6 weeks?

 

[Psylocide]

What kind of beer was this supposed to be?

That puts you at ~10.3% ABV @ 1.005 FG.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Maple sap and syrup porter.
That's about spot on for the recipe since it called for TWO quarts of syrup with an ABV closer to 11.5% and I only used 1 QT.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Know that I used the refractometer and plugged the number into the calculator.
Even after adding the qt of syrup, my refract. Number was 1.049. Only .005 higher than before I added the maple.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Yamo bottle but I'm gonna take my time. So if I don't get to it for another week or two that's OK.
I'm working on my patience............

 

[DNKDUKE]

UPDATE:
This has been sitting in bottles for 3 weeks and is just starting to carbonate - I opened a bottle last night. It is still sickeningly sweet so I honestly do not think any further carbonation or conditioning is going to help the flavor. (first needed opinion)

I am thinking about opening 3/4 of the bottles and dumping them in a sanitized carboy with the slurry that I saved from this beers primary. Has anyone ever tried/done this? Is this a viable option for a beer that I think I pulled out of fermentation too early?

 

[stpug]

UPDATE:
This has been sitting in bottles for 3 weeks and is just starting to carbonate - I opened a bottle last night. It is still sickeningly sweet so I honestly do not think any further carbonation or conditioning is going to help the flavor. (first needed opinion)

I am thinking about opening 3/4 of the bottles and dumping them in a sanitized carboy with the slurry that I saved from this beers primary. Has anyone ever tried/done this? Is this a viable option for a beer that I think I pulled out of fermentation too early?

How about opening one beer and getting a hydrometer reading on it? If there's much carbonation then you might want to first decarb the beer by warming it up a bit (80F should be good), and stirring until most of the carbonation has gone away, then cooling back down to 60F for the reading.

It's hard to believe that a 1.005 beer is sickeningly sweet and since you came up with that FG using a refract calculator then I think it's time for a second opinion (i.e. hydrometer).

Also, in regards to the recipe, what were your hop additions or expected IBUs?

 

[DNKDUKE]

How about opening one beer and getting a hydrometer reading on it?

Will this be accurate?
I will try this tonight.

 

[stpug]

Will this be accurate?
I will try this tonight.

Yes, as long as you remove most of the carbonation and get the beer to around 60F when taking the reading.

I have poured beer into a glass (or metal bowl), and then put that glass in a larger bowl of hot water to warm it up. Stirring every 5 minutes for about half an hour is usually sufficient to knock out most of the carbonation. Then put the glass in a bowl of ice water to cool it back down to 60F.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Yes, as long as you remove most of the carbonation and get the beer to around 60F when taking the reading.

I have poured beer into a glass (or metal bowl), and then put that glass in a larger bowl of hot water to warm it up. Stirring every 5 minutes for about half an hour is usually sufficient to knock out most of the carbonation. Then put the glass in a bowl of ice water to cool it back down to 60F.

I will do this.
Stay tuned.............

EDIT:
Where are you going solution wise, with this?

 

[DNKDUKE]

@stpug

I took a gravity last night per your instructions. It was/is 1.022

Here is the recipe information.
OG - 1.083
FG - 1.019
IBU - 33
29.79 SRM - what I have is as black as night

12# 2 row
1.25# Roasted Barley - I used 1.5#
1# Aromatic Malt
.5# Crystal 60
.5# Belgian Chocolate Malt
.25# Kiln Coffee Malt - I used .3#
.66 oz Columbus hops boiled for 90 min
WLP007 - I did a (2) gallon starter
64 oz maple syrup
I also added .3# of Vienna, only used 32 oz of syrup in secondary and substituted .75 oz of magnum pellet and .5 oz of magnum leaf
mashed with 1.45 qts per # grain of maple sapfor 75 min - beginning temp 153 degF - ending temp 143 degF
sparged with1.5 gallons of water added to 4 gallons of maple sap @ 185degF
boiled for 100 min - all hops @90 min - Irish moss @ 10 min - cooled to 66 degF and pitched WLP007
Pre boil gravity was 1.085 @ 8.5 gal
Primary erupted like Vesuvius for 5 days then calmed - total primary was 14 days
racked onto 32 oz of freshly made maple syrup which sat for another 14 days.
bottled with .33# of simplicity and we are where we are at now.
Now you know what I know.

 

[joshesmusica]

well you found the sickeningly sweet answer in the 1.022 fg. and you also learned not to take gravity readings after fermentation unless with a hydrometer.

at this point you could try to let it condition some and see if it helps. did you use a priming calculator when bottling? if so then i would say to give it time to carbonate fully (if it's not by the 3 week mark, it brings up the question of what temp you're conditioning at), and with a little more carbonation it should help a little. at this point though, there's not really much you can do to help out that residual sweetness, and that level of FG usually comes with the territory when brewing high abv beers.

 

[Gavin C]

Sounds like you have reached the alcohol tolerance of the yeast and added a bunch of simple sugar. The yeast cannot work ay more in the high alcohol environment.

Options

1: Dump it
2: Add another yeast strain to chew up the sugar making the beer dry and boosting the already whopping ABV higher still. A champagne yeast or something similar might be an idea. ($0.80 cost)
3: Drink as is

I know what I would do.

Your idea of pouring the bottles back into a FV is not a good one. There are a variety of reasons why, chief among them would be inevitable oxidation and resulting off flavor.

 

[Hello]

Something is off.

Your OG was 1.083 and your PRE-BOIL gravity was 1.085?
No way you boiled for 100 minutes OR you took a reading somewhere that was wrong.

That said, if your OG is definitely 1.083 and you only got down to 1.020 then that will give you the sweetness. I also would have increased hops to provide a bit more balance. 33 IBUs on a beer like that will be all but non-existant.

Also, I realize your original post said OG was 1.085, but you mentioned 1.083 below that.
I would dump it. I don't think pouring it back into a bucket to ferment more will do it any good after you oxidize the beer.

 

[stpug]

You're in a tight spot for sure, primarily because it's already bottled and it's low carbonation.

Option:
There's a good chance there are lots of simple sugars remaining because of the late addition maple syrup and simplicity priming sugar. This, at least, give you the possibility of carbing up with some champagne yeast (perhaps too much if the yeast can consume a lot of the sugars and create bottle bombs). Carbonic acid plus reduction of gravity points will certainly bring out a better balance but will it be enough? I don't know.

Option:
Since the batch is an experiment anyway then you could very carefully pour all bottles back into a bucket with another yeast strain to see if you can get it to attenuate some more. The chances are slim on this option, IMO.

Option:
You could use this as a blending batch for something like a black and tan - the problem being that you're blended beer will lose some carbonation qualities due to the low carbonation of this beer. It would probably be worth blending with a fairly carbonated, bitter, and dry pale beer to counter-balance the sticky mess you're working with.

Option:
You could brew a smaller batch of beer with the specific intentions of blending this beer with it in the primary fermenter. Brew the beer to be dry and with some extra bitterness using a high attenuating yeast (Belle Saison for example), and give yourself a couple extra gallons of space in the fermenter to add this beer to it. If you brew it very pale then you may aim for something like a brown saison. When primary is at it's peak then add almost half of your bottles to the fermenting batch, making sure to sterilize the lips of each bottle you add (a flame/lighter works great for this). The actively fermenting yeast will uptake any oxygen you add to the beer and the nature of Belle Saison will certainly attenuate a lot of your sugars in the bottled beer.

Being an experiment and relatively low cost of the last option (brown saison), I might opt for that choice. I think the resulting beer might actually work out well if you can keep contamination out of the fermenter which just means you need to be diligent when adding the bottled beer to the batch. Flame the lips of the bottles and don't but the entire bottle over the fermenter - just the lip.

 

[DNKDUKE]

well you found the sickeningly sweet answer in the 1.022 fg. and you also learned not to take gravity readings after fermentation unless with a hydrometer.

at this point you could try to let it condition some and see if it helps. did you use a priming calculator when bottling? if so then i would say to give it time to carbonate fully (if it's not by the 3 week mark, it brings up the question of what temp you're conditioning at), and with a little more carbonation it should help a little. at this point though, there's not really much you can do to help out that residual sweetness, and that level of FG usually comes with the territory when brewing high abv beers.

OK..............
now I need a lesson on what the gravity numbers mean. If the FG of the recipe is supposed to be ~1.019 and my FG is 1.022, that is .003 or 3 thousandths off. Knowing that the significant numbers are to the right of the decimal that's still not alot OR am I not looking at it correctly?

This beer as it stands right now, is carbed - not like id like it to be - but nonetheless carbed. Yes I used the candi syrup calculator. Right now the bottles are sitting in my bathroom as its the warmest room in the house ~70degF

 

[DNKDUKE]

Something is off.

Your OG was 1.083 and your PRE-BOIL gravity was 1.085?
No way you boiled for 100 minutes OR you took a reading somewhere that was wrong.

That said, if your OG is definitely 1.083 and you only got down to 1.020 then that will give you the sweetness. I also would have increased hops to provide a bit more balance. 33 IBUs on a beer like that will be all but non-existant.

Also, I realize your original post said OG was 1.085, but you mentioned 1.083 below that.
I would dump it. I don't think pouring it back into a bucket to ferment more will do it any good after you oxidize the beer.

1.083 was the recipe target - 1.085 is what I got. (did I mix up some of the nomenclature?)
I did increase the hops - from .66oz Columbus(recipe) to 1.25 oz of magnum

 

[DNKDUKE]

You're in a tight spot for sure, primarily because it's already bottled and it's low carbonation.

Option:
There's a good chance there are lots of simple sugars remaining because of the late addition maple syrup and simplicity priming sugar. This, at least, give you the possibility of carbing up with some champagne yeast (perhaps too much if the yeast can consume a lot of the sugars and create bottle bombs). Carbonic acid plus reduction of gravity points will certainly bring out a better balance but will it be enough? I don't know.

Option:
Since the batch is an experiment anyway then you could very carefully pour all bottles back into a bucket with another yeast strain to see if you can get it to attenuate some more. The chances are slim on this option, IMO.

Option:
You could use this as a blending batch for something like a black and tan - the problem being that you're blended beer will lose some carbonation qualities due to the low carbonation of this beer. It would probably be worth blending with a fairly carbonated, bitter, and dry pale beer to counter-balance the sticky mess you're working with.

Option:
You could brew a smaller batch of beer YOU MEAN LIKE A GALLON? with the specific intentions of blending this beer with it in the primary fermenter. Brew the beer to be dry and with some extra bitterness using a high attenuating yeast (Belle Saison for example), and give yourself a couple extra gallons of space in the fermenter to add this beer to it. If you brew it very pale then you may aim for something like a brown saison. When primary is at it's peak then add almost half of your bottles to the fermenting batch, making sure to sterilize the lips of each bottle you add (a flame/lighter works great for this). The actively fermenting yeast will uptake any oxygen you add to the beer and the nature of Belle Saison will certainly attenuate a lot of your sugars in the bottled beer.

Being an experiment and relatively low cost of the last option (brown saison), I might opt for that choice. I think the resulting beer might actually work out well if you can keep contamination out of the fermenter which just means you need to be diligent when adding the bottled beer to the batch. Flame the lips of the bottles and don't but the entire bottle over the fermenter - just the lip.

There is another option - cook with it.......

I have the grain milled and everything except the Belle Saison yeast ready to brew a SMaSH this weekend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.......can you smell the smoke?

 

[DNKDUKE]

I have listened to all of you for over a year on this site and truly respect all y'alls opinion.
I am grateful for everyone's input - i just wanted to say that.

So I have another question...are you saying that this yeast (WLP007) was not a good choice even with a (2) gallon starter?

 

[stpug]

There is another option - cook with it.......

I have the grain milled and everything except the Belle Saison yeast ready to brew a SMaSH this weekend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.......can you smell the smoke?

Cooking with it would work too.

I was thinking more along the lines of about half batch (assuming 5 gallons is typical) then brew a 3 gallon batch and add 2 gallons worth of the bottled beer at the appropriate time.

I have listened to all of you for over a year on this site and truly respect all y'alls opinion.
I am grateful for everyone's input - i just wanted to say that.

So I have another question...are you saying that this yeast (WLP007) was not a good choice even with a (2) gallon starter?

I see nothing wrong with that yeast and the 2 gallon starter was good. I think the main issue you ran into was very low BU:GU ratio, slight underattenuation, unusual brewing adjuncts, and large proportion of complex sugars that the yeast couldn't deal with. All things that can be resolved for a future attempt IMO.