Ok to skip rapid chill after boil?

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Gazint

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Was wondering if it would be ok to skip the rapid chill (wort chiller) after boil and put the hot wort into a fermentation chamber (set to ferment temperature) overnight with a yeast starter in a separate beaker. Then the next day, add the yeast starter and let ferment.
 

Dgallo

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The longer it takes to get from 150*f to pitching temps, the greater your risk of infection. As the beer cools in your fermentation chamber the head space in the fv will continue to contract and pull more and more outside air in, again increasing infection risk.

Always better to cool as fast as you can unless you are purposely coolshiping for a spontaneous fermentation
 

Golddiggie

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Hop utilization will be VERY different if you do. IMO/IME, if you have a wort chiller, use it. Never mind how a HOT fermenter will really tax the cooling engine in a fermentation chamber. It's far different maintaining a 65-75F temperature while fermenting compared with dropping something from 190F to 65-70F.

As mentioned above, cooling fast has more positive aspects than not doing so. If you're struggling to get to pitch temperature, work on that. If you have cool (below 55-60F) ground water, then there are ways to get your beer chilled pretty damned fast. My water, in the summer, doesn't go above 55F. With that, I chill my wort from ~195F (post whirlpool rest) to 65-70F in about 5-6 minutes (for 7.5-8 gallons going into fermenter). I seal my [stainless] fermenter at that point until I'm ready to pitch the yeast. Usually that's shortly after that point. Then it gets sealed up again to ferment away.

If you have a stainless fermenter, you'll create a vacuum by having hot wort chill in it without any way to release it. That can be dangerous. It's far different than going from fermenting temperature (sub 75F) to cold crash (around 35F) in a fermenter.
 

odie

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I think the infection angle is a net "wash".

Putting a lid on a hot kettle seals it pretty good. Minimal air will get sucked in but it will take a long time to cool.

An immersion wort chiller will drop it to 100' in 10-15 minutes but the kettle is open and exposed during that time. This is where I'm at.

Better option would be a counter flow chiller. it will drop it fast while allowing the kettle lid to stay on. But I'm leery of effectively cleaning the inside and I already have an IC.

And as stated, hop use at flame out will have different results if you chill or don't chill.
 

Golddiggie

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I use a plate chiller (from Duda Diesel) that's 12" wide and 40 plates. Chills damned fast.
I have a wort strainer between it and the pump so the chiller doesn't get plugged up with hop matter.
To clean, I simply run water through it, first, in both directions. Follow that by running PBW through it (again, both directions) and then a clear water rinse. This cleans the chiller very well. I then sanitize either by running Starsan through it (usually when I'm sanitizing my fermenter) or run hot (195F) wort through it before I send the chill water flowing and throttle back the wort flow from the chiller. This still gets me below 70F in less than 6 minutes from the start of the chill cycle. The kettle is not open during this time and the fermenter is also sealed up (closed transfer). I chilled about 13-1/2 gallons (for a 12 gallon batch) in the spring in about 9 minutes.
With this setup, ease of use, and how FAST it chills, I can't see ever doing a different chill method. Add to that how the yeast can be pitched as soon as I have the fermenter in position and it's a complete slam dunk.
 

odie

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I strain my wort but the kettle gotta sit an hour or two before straining or my strainer gets clogged. Mine is about 200 micron.

I have a brand new plate chiller (heat exchanger) for biodiesel. I'm outta the diesel biz for now and it's just sitting in a box. But I don't see how to keep the kettle trub out until the kettle settles a while.
 

doug293cz

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It is important to cool down below about 170°F as quickly as possible. DMS is formed from SMM at temps above about 170°F, but DMS boils at about 100°F. Thus the DMS formed during the boil dissipates rather rapidly (more rapidly than it forms.) Dissipation of DMS depends on steam removal during boiling, and having an open vessel when cooling from boiling to ~170°F. If you put wort into a sealed container at a temp above 170°F, then you are at risk for leaving DMS in the beer - depending on how much SMM was left in the beer at the end of the boil.

The half life of SMM in boiling wort is about 30 - 40 minutes, depending on wort pH. 60 minutes is two half lives, if half life is 30 minutes, and 90 minutes is three half lives. Thus you would have about 25% of the original SMM still in the wort after a 60 minute boil, and about 12-13% after a 90 minute boil. There would be more SMM at end of boil if the half life is longer than 30 minutes. Depending on the starting level of SMM in your malt, you could have enough SMM to form objectionable amounts of DMS, if the wort is cooled in a sealed vessel from boiling to ~170°F.

Brew on :mug:
 

Golddiggie

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I strain my wort but the kettle gotta sit an hour or two before straining or my strainer gets clogged. Mine is about 200 micron.

I have a brand new plate chiller (heat exchanger) for biodiesel. I'm outta the diesel biz for now and it's just sitting in a box. But I don't see how to keep the kettle trub out until the kettle settles a while.
This is the strainer I'm using, with the included screen(s).

Works really well for me. Captures enough matter to get nothing stuck in the chiller but doesn't get plugged up to prevent wort flow. I typically dump a couple ounces of matter out of it while cleaning it up. I'd rather have it caught there than in my plate chiller.

I do a 10 minute whirlpool, then 10 minute rest. After that the wort must flow into fermenter (through strainer and chiller).
 

hotbeer

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You don't have to get too fancy or expensive to chill wort quickly.

If you have a second immersion chiller or even just a coil of copper pipe, put it in a bucket or ice chest full of water and ice, maybe some rock salt too, and you can cool that summer time tap water down real quick before it goes into the chiller in the beer.
 

RM-MN

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The longer it takes to get from 150*f to pitching temps, the greater your risk of infection.
Sure does. Except that it doesn't happen.

It is important to cool down below about 170°F as quickly as possible. DMS is formed from SMM at temps above about 170°F, but DMS boils at about 100°F. Thus the DMS formed during the boil dissipates rather rapidly (more rapidly than it forms.)
Yes, for sure you need to chill quickly to avoid DMS. Except that you don't.

no chill...
Those of us who use "no chill" don't get infected beer nor do we get detectable amounts of DMS.

Now for the real reason for faster chilling. Hops. Hop oils do two things, they isomerize to create bitterness, and they evaporate. If you plan a 60 minute boil, almost all the possible isomerization will happen and a long cool down won't matter. However, late addition hops do isomerize until the temperature falls below about 170F. and the hop oils that give us the flavors and aromas continue to evaporate. I have no data that shows just where the cutoff temp might be for that. I do know that I really enjoy the aroma of a good APA or IPA which is caused by the hop oils. I can notice that aroma even from beer that is chilled.

Look at your recipe. No late hops and a 60 minute boil? No chill works just fine. Got a hop addition at 30 minutes or later in the boil? Better chill as quickly as you can to preserve the oils that give the flavor and aroma. Whirlpool hops? Let them sit for the length of time you want for the lighter oils to evaporate, then chill to keep the rest.
 

jtratcliff

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Those of us who use "no chill" don't get infected beer nor do we get detectable amounts of DMS.

Now for the real reason for faster chilling. Hops.
Yup, pretty much the same conclusion as the Xbmt and coincides w/ my own no-chill results.


I get passable APA's with no-chill... But I do adjust the hop schedule to to try to compensate.
I've never tried a no-chill IPA...

I have no issues no-chilling other styles that don't call for late hop additions.
 

oakbarn

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We use a Duda Diesel Plate Chiller. It does the job and we have never had any issues with cleaning or infections. We "end" the Brew Day with the "pitch". I have done the no chill when just brewing by myself, but like "sex", I prefer to brew with others!
 

ThreeSheetz

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One can still make good beer if you skip the cold crash. I've been tinkering with that for a few years. My brew kettle is capable of being sealed and so I have turned the heat off, sealed the brew kettle and the next morning reheated to pitching temperature, pitched my yeast and carried on with the process effectively making a two day process out of it. It's sort of nice to not have one massive work day. I will say this though. It will change the taste of the beer. I began noticing a certain taste I couldn't put my finger on. Including when I brewed my favorite standbys. When I went back to a cold crash that taste disappeared. I don't know what's causing that "taste" I just know after returning to the cold crash technique that taste is gone.
I'm simply relaying my personal brewing experience so your milage may vary.
 

doug293cz

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One can still make good beer if you skip the cold crash. I've been tinkering with that for a few years. My brew kettle is capable of being sealed and so I have turned the heat off, sealed the brew kettle and the next morning reheated to pitching temperature, pitched my yeast and carried on with the process effectively making a two day process out of it. It's sort of nice to not have one massive work day. I will say this though. It will change the taste of the beer. I began noticing a certain taste I couldn't put my finger on. Including when I brewed my favorite standbys. When I went back to a cold crash that taste disappeared. I don't know what's causing that "taste" I just know after returning to the cold crash technique that taste is gone.
I'm simply relaying my personal brewing experience so your milage may vary.
Can you describe the "off" taste?

Brew on :mug:
 

ThreeSheetz

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As far as describing the added taste...not really... I'm not good at that kind of thing but it did NOT ruin the beer. As I said it was still good beer and nobody ever complained about the tase of my homebrew. *I* knew it was different and wanted to understand why I was getting that additional taste. As I said, your milage may vary. You shouldn't be put off by my comments because it was still good beer. In fact, go for it. Part of the beauty of this hobby, it trying new things.
 

madscientist451

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When its below 40f outside, I brew in the evening and set the kettle out on the porch to chill overnight. I dump to the fermenter in the morning and pitch the yeast. When its warm out at night, I use my wort chiller.
 

Barbarossa

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I personally would not risk it. I did have to dump a batch in the beginning. That's what drives me to not take risk with sanitation.

There's many corners that can be cut. In the end, it's about reducing the risk. Many will tell you that they took the risk and nothing happened.

If you are ready to take it, go for it. You can still reevaluate your decision after you dump your first batch.

The beauty of a community like we have here, as well as the knowledge we get from past brewers, is that we can learn from other people's mistakes. But no one is stopping you to just plow through and make them all by yourself.
 
OP
G

Gazint

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Sure does. Except that it doesn't happen.



Yes, for sure you need to chill quickly to avoid DMS. Except that you don't.



Those of us who use "no chill" don't get infected beer nor do we get detectable amounts of DMS.

Now for the real reason for faster chilling. Hops. Hop oils do two things, they isomerize to create bitterness, and they evaporate. If you plan a 60 minute boil, almost all the possible isomerization will happen and a long cool down won't matter. However, late addition hops do isomerize until the temperature falls below about 170F. and the hop oils that give us the flavors and aromas continue to evaporate. I have no data that shows just where the cutoff temp might be for that. I do know that I really enjoy the aroma of a good APA or IPA which is caused by the hop oils. I can notice that aroma even from beer that is chilled.

Look at your recipe. No late hops and a 60 minute boil? No chill works just fine. Got a hop addition at 30 minutes or later in the boil? Better chill as quickly as you can to preserve the oils that give the flavor and aroma. Whirlpool hops? Let them sit for the length of time you want for the lighter oils to evaporate, then chill to keep the rest.
What about doing a combination? I have a homemade counterflow chiller. Can I chill to 170 degrees F (seems to be the magic number for the hop oils) then dump it all into a sanitized cube and let cool overnight to pitching temp? Or how about using a hop bag (spider) for late additions? The hops can be taken out before the hot wort is added to the cube and left to cool overnight.
I've also read someone posted that "20 minute additions simply get tossed into the cube when I’m racking into it at the end of the boil."
What are your thoughts?
 

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CaptMogul

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I have been no chilling this year. Cut the heat and put two dowels under the bk lid and let it it sit. Its hot here now so I start heating the HLT about 5 am, about 80 outside and mash in around 6am. done with boil around 9:30 Around 5 pm its cooled to 90f and into the fermenter it goes in cooler set @ 75f till morning when I pitch S 05 or Kevik I leave out and pitch @ 90f. Number 14 tomorrow doing this. So far no problems
Ed B
 

RM-MN

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When its below 40f outside, I brew in the evening and set the kettle out on the porch to chill overnight. I dump to the fermenter in the morning and pitch the yeast. When its warm out at night, I use my wort chiller.
Don't do that when it is 40 below outside. You get a solid chunk of wort and a broken kettle.
 

oakbarn

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If you do not rapidly chill, you may not get a "cold break" that requires rapid chilling. You are also in the best infection temperature range for a longer time if you overnight chill. When we brew (several of us), the Brew Day is over when we pitch. We normally toast the "end".

Unfortunately, that starts the "Clean Day" for the one who has the physical equipment, but we have made most "cleaning" to be done while we are brewing so that just leaves the Brew Kettle and "cold side" to clean on my own.
 

CaptMogul

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To each his own opinion. From what I have read, early to mid 20th century brewers did not have garden hoses or access to ice machines to chill anything. Some brewers, even in USA today use open fermentation. Having also read, not chilling " MAY " lead to infection not WILL.
Just my opinion and with my disability it sure lightens my brew session. I will continue until it doesnt work, and then you are all welcome to the " WE TOLD YOU SO"
 

Drewch

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No chill is a pretty well established brewing technique at this point. (Here's a Brewer's Friend article from 12 years ago: Australian NO CHILL Brewing Technique TESTED | Brewer's Friend (brewersfriend.com).)

I haven't used my wort chiller in about year. No infections yet. I do all my additions into a spider to control the length of contact with hops, spices, etc.; the wort goes into the fermenter at pasteurization temperatures; and I cover the airlock fitting with several layers of sanitizer-soaked filter (e.g., paper towel) to allow the pressure to equalize. If I brew in the morning, I pitch the yeast at bedtime. If I brew in the evening, I pitch when I wake up the next day.
 

Twinkeelfool

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I think it might be close to a decade since I’ve chilled. Hoppy beers can require a few tweaks but it works fine. I generally let the temp drop to 80c then add hops to the cube, fill it and seal. Non hoppy beers I stir, let it sit for 10 mins then fill the cube. I have also filled the cube straight after the boil has stopped when pressed for time with no issue with regards to clarity etc. And the botulism, you get used to it, it’s no big deal 🤣
 

Dland

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What about doing a combination? I have a homemade counterflow chiller. Can I chill to 170 degrees F (seems to be the magic number for the hop oils) then dump it all into a sanitized cube and let cool overnight to pitching temp? Or how about using a hop bag (spider) for late additions?
What are your thoughts?
I usually chill to around 160-170 w immersion chiller in BK, do a hop step by sending wort though spider in vessel that is my mash tun (w grist cleaned out, of course). After the hop step, I chill to pitching temp w plate cooler as wort is pumped to fermentor in cellar.. The second cooling could be skipped by some I guess.

One thing about no chill, in some temps you might not get down to optimum pitching temp without temp controlled fermentation, especially w lagers. Getting pitch temp right to add to yeast cake would also take more effort, or at least timing.

While I'm sure that some don't experience DMS from slow cooling, it does happen to some people w some beers. But if temp is lowered to 170F, you have pretty much passed the temp zone when most DMS is produced during cooling (above 180F), or so I have read.
 

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