Nottingham slowed down, far from FG

[JayEff]

Hello!
I've been searching for this kind of question for a while and haven't found anything that was similar enough to calm my rising anxiety, so please forgive me if this is a question that popped up a lot already

I've been fermenting my 1.060 OG IPA with notty for 7 days at 59-60F. Temperature stayed stable the whole time, although 2 days ago I removed the swamp cooler which gradually rose the temperature by less than 2F.

The thing is that on day 5, the SG was still at 1.038, not even halfway to the projected FG of 1.014, and the bubbling has slowed down to a crawl. Yes, I'm aware that means little, could even be a leak, but that in combination with the still very high gravity, and the fact that I've heard that notty is an absolute beast, sometimes reaching near FG in only 2-3 days, got me very worried. Has anyone seen this behavior before? Should I just wait it out as it's clearly still working, or should I maybe move it to a warmer room?

Bit of background info: I didn't quite properly rehydrate notty, as I stirred it in, let it rest for 15 min, then pitched it all slightly too warm, at around 70F. It's a 3.2 gal batch, I used one package. I did aerate, but perhaps inadequately.

Thanks!

Edit: Perhaps I should mention it's pure extract, using 2 kg of extra light DME - in case that sounds like low yeast nutrients to you.

 

[triethylborane]

Wait a few weeks and make sure the fermentation temps stay within recommended range for Notty 57-70f, and periodically check gravity for data points before you decide to pitch more Notty. It ferments hard for a few days but certainly isn't finished after 5 in my experience. Unless there was something quite wrong with your procedure, doubtful, Notty should attenuate nicely around your target FG.

 

[brewbama]

What temp did you mash?

 

[kh54s10]

What temp did you mash?

He didn't, it was an extract batch.

I would wait at least another few days.

You are not using a refractometer to measure the gravity are you? If so you need to make a correction for the presence of alcohol.

I have used Nottingham a few times. I don't know how fast it really gets to FG because I have never taken a gravity reading in less than 14 days.

After the active portion of fermentation ends the gravity will still be dropping how long that takes is dependent on many things. Which one is slowing yours, if it is, is somewhat of a guess.

 

[JayEff]

I'm using a hydrometer, I made sure to take the temperature of the beer to the calibrated temperature before measuring and all that.

I'll continue to be patient, thanks for the confidence boost everyone. I know I should be relaxing, but I just had to ask.

I'll at least wait another week before I worry again

 

[ChelisHubby]

Give it a easy smooth stir and let it rise to 66 after 2 days there I will bet it has moved

 

[RM-MN]

The first 2-3 days is when the temperature control is critical. After that the yeast need/like it warmer. Warm your fermenter to the low 70's to encourage the yeast to finish up.

 

[JayEff]

The first 2-3 days is when the temperature control is critical. After that the yeast need/like it warmer. Warm your fermenter to the low 70's to encourage the yeast to finish up.

Thanks for your comment. The low 70s, indicating 70-73F? That's quite warm though I'm sure I can do 70 ambient if not higher. Should I raise the temperature slowly over the course of several days? I would achieve this by moving the fermenter now to a room at 65-68F ambient, then after a day or so to an even warmer room. Or should I go to the warmer room straight away?

I also thought that since there's sill a good 24 points of gravity left to go, the flavor profile might not yet be set and warming things up could result in off-flavors - this is more than half the expected points of gravity the yeast will eat after all! You still recommend I do this?

Edit: ooooh that's weird and a little scary. I just drew another gravity reading from the spigot and it was crystal clear, indicating there's little to no yeast left in suspension. I think I'll have to move it to a warmer place and swirl it a little as I go, to rouse the yeast. Gravity was ...still 1.038 2 days later. I'm going to move it.

 

[RM-MN]

I'd move the fermenter right to the warmer room. Without adding other heat it will take some time for the beer to get to that temp, essentially a slow ramp up.

Clear beer will still have a lot of yeast suspended in it. It's mostly that the trub settled. You probably don't have to swirl.

 

[JayEff]

Ok, I will try that, thank you - moving the container will certainly swirl it around a bunch either way. I hope I don't have to pitch more yeast - shipping cost for one package of yeast is completely out of proportion so my only option would be to make a starter from the US-05 I ordered for my next batch and use it for both this and the next - but that's a consideration for later, I'm sure it'll be fine.

 

[RM-MN]

There is no rush to do anything other than warm the beer. Making the assumption that your next beer will be brewed soon and goes to completion normally and furthermore that your current beer doesn't finish in the meanwhile, you could bottle the next beer and dump this one onto the yeast cake of the later brewed beer. That would be much more yeast than you would get in a packet and should bring this one to completion quickly.

 

[JayEff]

There is no rush to do anything other than warm the beer. Making the assumption that your next beer will be brewed soon and goes to completion normally and furthermore that your current beer doesn't finish in the meanwhile, you could bottle the next beer and dump this one onto the yeast cake of the later brewed beer. That would be much more yeast than you would get in a packet and should bring this one to completion quickly.

True, fair point, though I'd be ... "overpitching", right?

Either way that would mean using my bottling bucket as a fermenter, which in turn kinda means buying another bucket... I wasn't planning to have two batches going at the same time.

I suppose I could rack the beer to a "secondary" (my bottling bucket - they're both the exact same though, both have a lid with an airlock hole and a spigot) and pitch us-05, cleaning the other bucket to use it as a bottling bucket, and use the us-05 slurry this process generates for my next batch. That's probably what I'll do, if, and only if, I don't see the gravity dropping over the next few days (maybe a week) at this higher temperature. Sound good?

 

[RM-MN]

True, fair point, though I'd be ... "overpitching", right?

Either way that would mean using my bottling bucket as a fermenter, which in turn kinda means buying another bucket... I wasn't planning to have two batches going at the same time.

I suppose I could rack the beer to a "secondary" (my bottling bucket - they're both the exact same though, both have a lid with an airlock hole and a spigot) and pitch us-05, cleaning the other bucket to use it as a bottling bucket, and use the us-05 slurry this process generates for my next batch. That's probably what I'll do, if, and only if, I don't see the gravity dropping over the next few days (maybe a week) at this higher temperature. Sound good?

Sooner or later you will likely want/need another fermenter bucket. They aren't real expensive and you already have the lid ready for one. https://www.morebeer.com/products/plastic-bucket-6-gallon.html

 

[JayEff]

I have two buckets which are basically exactly the same. I just use one for bottling. Both came with an airlock and a spigot. I can't order from that website since I'm in germany - the shipping costs would probably be insane - but I'd be paying around 13 euros for a 17l bucket at my online shop, with spigot and airlock, or less for an unmodified bucket. I'm already playing with the thought of getting another one

 

[RM-MN]

I have two buckets which are basically exactly the same. I just use one for bottling. Both came with an airlock and a spigot. I can't order from that website since I'm in germany - the shipping costs would probably be insane - but I'd be paying around 13 euros for a 17l bucket at my online shop, with spigot and airlock, or less for an unmodified bucket. I'm already playing with the thought of getting another one

Sorry, I didn't realize your were not in the US. In any case you will soon want another fermenter bucket. I now have 5 and sometimes have all of them in use. If not, buckets stack pretty well.:rockin:

 

[JayEff]

Well there is a bit of a limit of how much beer you can make in Germany. Anything past 200l a year and you're subject to taxes. With only one fermentation going at a time, I'm very unlikely to hit that limit, but with two .. ?

Anyways, what behavior should I expect, now that the beer is at 70+F? I'm not seeing more bubbling activity just yet, and I wonder if that's just CO2 dropping out of solution since it's warmer now...

 

[MaryB]

Think I am up to 6 fermenting buckets now... often have 4 at a time full!

 

[RM-MN]

Well there is a bit of a limit of how much beer you can make in Germany. Anything past 200l a year and you're subject to taxes. With only one fermentation going at a time, I'm very unlikely to hit that limit, but with two .. ?

Anyways, what behavior should I expect, now that the beer is at 70+F? I'm not seeing more bubbling activity just yet, and I wonder if that's just CO2 dropping out of solution since it's warmer now...

Here in the US we are limited to 100 US gallons per adult person and 200 per household. So far nobody has come by to check just how much I have brewed....

Yeast only produce CO2 (and in great amounts) during the initial part of the ferment. There may be no visible activity as they reduce the last of the sugars. http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

 

[JayEff]

The krausen falls, and yeast begin to settle out, or "flocculate". It is important to check the degree of attenuation at this point to confirm that the yeast has completed fermentation. Some strains of yeast will begin to flocculate out before terminal gravity has been reached, and need to be "roused" back into solution.

Well, I'm far off the terminal gravity and judging by the clarity of the beer, the yeast has flocculated already. This text, and some forum posts, are why I said I might need to swirl the fermenter to rouse the yeast...

While I am aware that the airlock activity doesn't serve as an indicator for active yeast, the clarity and the stagnated SG seems to indicate it. Had the SG been dropping over those 2 days, I wouldn't have been particularly worried.

Getting really warm in my place, beer's at 72-74F right now which is above the recommended range of Notty, so I'm gonna implement a swamp cooler. Don't know if it'll help much... I really hope I see a noticeable drop in SG over the next few days, but I'm not sure if I should leave the beer where it is right now, because it's quite a bit too warm...

What could have happened here anyways, did the yeast perhaps go dormant because it was too cold and it was already stressed from not quite appropriate pitching?

 

[scb44]

My 2 cents... Relax.... Let it warm into 70s, the flavor is set already and the warmth helps yeast finish... Continue to do the right things... It will finish in the next 2 weeks... You are good... Prediction: great beer!!

 

[JayEff]

My 2 cents... Relax.... Let it warm into 70s, the flavor is set already

Thanks for the encouraging words You say the flavor is already set, but considering I'm at an apparent attenuation of under 40%, this surprises me a little. The amount of sugar processed has no meaning for the point in time when the flavor profile is set?

 

[JayEff]

Alright, it's been sitting upwards of 75F for 3 days now, and I measured the gravity again: 1.035, a 3 point drop, presuming all my measurements were precise. Well, if it keeps dropping at 1 point a day it'll be in primary for over 4 weeks total, another 3 weeks from now. Should I be worried about it sitting on the trub at that point, what with potential off-flavors? If I did a secondary, I'd have a head space of around 5-6 liters: got a 17l bucket and it's a 12l batch, not accounting for trub loss. Probably quite an oxidization problem at that point.

My previous question still stands: What could've happened that caused a normally beastly yeast to be so extremely slow, was that my rather tiny rehydration/pitching misshap, or not enough aeration (even though danstar claims aeration isn't even necessary), or the fact that I let it sit at 59F for too long?

 

[RM-MN]

I've left a batch on the trub for 9 weeks and it was one of the better beers. I will mention that there is a chance that you could have autolysis but then you could be hit by a car too. I'm not sure but I think being hit by the car would be more likely. Moving it to secondary won't help it and it could hurt, either from oxidation or from infection from too much headspace.

I'm betting on the cool ferment causing the slow ferment.

 

[JayEff]

I'm betting on the cool ferment causing the slow ferment.

Thank you for your response! I've got two follow up questions:
One, how would you describe off-flavor from autolysis? I'd like to know what to look for, and to familiarize myself with off-flavors that appear in my beers (but only if they appear against my best efforts ).
And two, do I understand it right, that I was supposed to keep notty at 59-60F for only 3 days tops, then warmed it to the low 70s?

 

[kh54s10]

Thank you for your response! I've got two follow up questions:
One, how would you describe off-flavor from autolysis? I'd like to know what to look for, and to familiarize myself with off-flavors that appear in my beers (but only if they appear against my best efforts ).
And two, do I understand it right, that I was supposed to keep notty at 59-60F for only 3 days tops, then warmed it to the low 70s?

I am not sure the flavor of autolysis, but you don't have to worry about that. It is very unlikely that you will encounter it unless you leave a beer on the yeast for a very long time. Like a year or so.

I don't ramp up my temperatures unless I don't have the FG that I am looking for after 2 weeks in primary. I have only had to warm a beer once to get it to finish in 93 batches. I ferment Notty at about 64 degrees for 2 weeks.

 

[JayEff]

I don't ramp up my temperatures unless I don't have the FG that I am looking for after 2 weeks in primary. I have only had to warm a beer once to get it to finish in 93 batches. I ferment Notty at about 64 degrees for 2 weeks.

I will heed this advice and not start worrying next time, unless I'm not at FG after 2 weeks. It's looking like that's what's going to happen as this beer has been sitting for 12 days now and at least as of yesterday it's not close to FG at all.

My notty has been sitting at 75F for a few days now, which is out of its optimal fermentation temp range. I understand that, when the temperature is too low, the yeast won't ferment much at all, but what if it's too warm, by a couple degrees, will that harm the yeast, or is that just to prevent off-flavors? Those, as I was advised multiple times, are set after the first 2-3 days and I won't have to worry about it anymore (right?).

 

[RM-MN]

I will heed this advice and not start worrying next time, unless I'm not at FG after 2 weeks. It's looking like that's what's going to happen as this beer has been sitting for 12 days now and at least as of yesterday it's not close to FG at all.

My notty has been sitting at 75F for a few days now, which is out of its optimal fermentation temp range. I understand that, when the temperature is too low, the yeast won't ferment much at all, but what if it's too warm, by a couple degrees, will that harm the yeast, or is that just to prevent off-flavors? Those, as I was advised multiple times, are set after the first 2-3 days and I won't have to worry about it anymore (right?).

You'd have to get the temperature up over 100 to do serious harm to the yeast. The optimal range for the yeast is really important from the time it is pitched until the ferment slows down. Yours has definitely slowed down.:rockin:

 

[JayEff]

You'd have to get the temperature up over 100 to do serious harm to the yeast. The optimal range for the yeast is really important from the time it is pitched until the ferment slows down. Yours has definitely slowed down.:rockin:

That was exactly my assumption and question! Thanks! Alright then, finally time to relax and let it go its way

 

[Novims]

I've left a batch on the trub for 9 weeks and it was one of the better beers. I will mention that there is a chance that you could have autolysis but then you could be hit by a car too. I'm not sure but I think being hit by the car would be more likely. Moving it to secondary won't help it and it could hurt, either from oxidation or from infection from too much headspace.

I'm betting on the cool ferment causing the slow ferment.

Ha ha ha! Nice one. I've never been hit by a car, so...

 

[Novims]

I've left a batch on the trub for 9 weeks and it was one of the better beers. I will mention that there is a chance that you could have autolysis but then you could be hit by a car too. I'm not sure but I think being hit by the car would be more likely. Moving it to secondary won't help it and it could hurt, either from oxidation or from infection from too much headspace.

I'm betting on the cool ferment causing the slow ferment.

Ha ha ha! Being hit by a car... Nice one!

 

[JayEff]

Now, 4 days later, the SG ist still at 1.035 - no change over 4 days at 75F. I think the yeast is busted... is there anything I could do to wake it up, or will I have to pitch my US-05? If I do so, should I chill it down again, or is the flavor profile set, regardless of repitching or no? I plan on ordering another couple of items from the online shop so I could also order more yeast.

 

[JayEff]

Brew day: 5/20, OG 1.060
5/26: 1.038
5/28: 1.038
5/31: 1.035
6/03: 1.035
6/07: 1.034
6/10: 1.034
Is it fair enough to start worrying now? :/ In words, that's 4 points of gravity in almost 2 weeks.
Do you still recommend that I just let it sit? Because I will if you do - and I'll order another fermenter and brew another beer while I wait for this one
I will also order some yeast nutrient and use that on every brew from now on, hoping that will prevent this, and raise the temperature much sooner than this time... But I still really want to save this batch. Certainly I can't package now with that much sugar left to go. I could raise the ABV to a decent level with dextrose, but I'd expect bottle bombs because of all the sugar that's still left... any advice?

 

[scb44]

JF,

I feel for your stall... it is unexpected and not good.

Please make sure your FG is an accurate reading from a known good calibrated hydrometer or other measuring device.

If it is what you say it is... taste it... if it is still sweet and delicious and not sour and gross... then let us agree at this time that your recipe and the style you are aiming at are in grave jeopardy and let us now shoot for beer... anything beyond drinkable beer will be a bonus... if you are good with this... then:

- go buy 1 or 2 packets of US-05 (I would pitch 2 with no hesitation)
- direct pitch this 1 or 2 packets in the beer by sprinkling gently on top of your partially fermented wort
- seal the fermenter, install the airlock, store at 65-75 degree F
- wait 2 weeks - if it is not close to your finishing gravity then decide if you will keg, bottle condition or pitch - I keg, so bottle bomb risk is a memory - if it is close to your hoped for FG - bottle it up

Anyways - I wish you luck - I have been a hobby extract brewer on and off (more off) for 30 years and more than 100+ batches - I have never had a stall... so with decent technique and luck this almost never happens - if it happened to you, throw it away with the pride of the experience and brew on - you will consistently brew awesome drinkable full bodied beer of any alcohol strength at a fraction of the cost of what you buy commercially (counting ingredients only, not your time) so if this batch is a loss, no worries, by having this hobby/obsession you will have a lifetime supply of as much excellent beer as you want...

Good luck and good brew!!!

BTW - RDWHAHB - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=RDWHAHB

 

[JayEff]

JF,

I feel for your stall... it is unexpected and not good.

Please make sure your FG is an accurate reading from a known good calibrated hydrometer or other measuring device.

Heh, sure isn't good, no.

I just accidentally smashed my hydrometer when I made a sugar wash to take the gravity of. But in pure water it definitely showed 1.000 so I assume my readings were correct. Gonna be ordering a new one, and while I'm at it, some more yeast.

If it is what you say it is... taste it... if it is still sweet and delicious and not sour and gross... then let us agree at this time that your recipe and the style you are aiming at are in grave jeopardy and let us now shoot for beer... anything beyond drinkable beer will be a bonus... if you are good with this... then:

- go buy 1 or 2 packets of US-05 (I would pitch 2 with no hesitation)
- direct pitch this 1 or 2 packets in the beer by sprinkling gently on top of your partially fermented wort
- seal the fermenter, install the airlock, store at 65-75 degree F
- wait 2 weeks - if it is not close to your finishing gravity then decide if you will keg, bottle condition or pitch - I keg, so bottle bomb risk is a memory - if it is close to your hoped for FG - bottle it up

I've been tasting my gravity measuring samples and I always liked them, they tasted like beer, not sweet though. Never noticed an off-smell in the airlock or the samples, so I think I'm still save from infection.

I will do what you say - why do you say to sprinkle it on the beer directly, not rehydrate? And why US-05, not nottingham, which I started with?

Anyways - I wish you luck - I have been a hobby extract brewer on and off (more off) for 30 years and more than 100+ batches - I have never had a stall... so with decent technique and luck this almost never happens - if it happened to you, throw it away with the pride of the experience and brew on - you will consistently brew awesome drinkable full bodied beer of any alcohol strength at a fraction of the cost of what you buy commercially (counting ingredients only, not your time) so if this batch is a loss, no worries, by having this hobby/obsession you will have a lifetime supply of as much excellent beer as you want...

Good luck and good brew!!!

Thanks for the good luck, and thanks for the response!

To be fair, hop forward homebrewed extract beers are a lot more expensive for me than normal commercial beer here, but compared to foreign beers in a restaurant, still half the cost, and obviously more tasty

 

[JayEff]

Got my new yeast today but after searching the forum a little for repitching, people say simply repitching almost never works, which makes sense to me because you're pitching into beer, not wort, there's alcohol present.

Instead I read it would be smarter to brew a beer and once that's done fermenting and transferred, rack this beer on the yeast cake of the finished beer.

A question regarding this: Does this require the use of a secondary? When a beer is finished, the yeast typically flocculates and goes dormant, but when racking to secondary, you do so just as the initial fermentation slows down, so the yeast cake that gets left behind would be fresher. Or can I let my beer finish to the point where I can bottle it, and then rack the stuck one onto the cake?

Truth be told I'd rather pitch two packages of US-05 as was suggested to get this done, but if it really rarely works, I'd be wasting money...

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Got my new yeast today but after searching the forum a little for repitching, people say simply repitching almost never works, which makes sense to me because you're pitching into beer, not wort, there's alcohol present.

Instead I read it would be smarter to brew a beer and once that's done fermenting and transferred, rack this beer on the yeast cake of the finished beer.

A question regarding this: Does this require the use of a secondary? When a beer is finished, the yeast typically flocculates and goes dormant, but when racking to secondary, you do so just as the initial fermentation slows down, so the yeast cake that gets left behind would be fresher. Or can I let my beer finish to the point where I can bottle it, and then rack the stuck one onto the cake?

Truth be told I'd rather pitch two packages of US-05 as was suggested to get this done, but if it really rarely works, I'd be wasting money...

Sorry to hear you are having these troubles, and very surprised it is happening with Nottingham!! It is normally an uncaged beast.. I am of the opinion that repitching dry yeast straight into the "beer" that you have now is unlikely to help. I tried it as well in an extract RIS and it didn't help. Nottingham is a strong yeast strain, so if your yeast didnt get damaged coming to you or in your handling, I suspect the lack of nutrition in the extract is the likely culprit. Pitching dry yeast will likely not work. Hydrating and pitching will improve your chances, but it is still a hostile environment for yeast that is not acclimated to alcohol.. racking this stalled beer onto a yeast cake is your best option, IMO. The cell count will be high and the yeast will be tolerant of the alcohol already developed.

I would brew another batch, probably using Nottingham (or US-O5 which is very similiar), then when it is finished, rack the beer off of that yeast cake and bottle. Then rack your stalled "beer" onto the cake, agitating some (not aggressively like you normally would) to add oxygen for the yeast to get going again, and dont be afraid to add yeast energizer and yeast nutrient.. I definitely would. I use Nottingham often.. I ferment at 62/65/68, 5 or 7 days each, for a total of 15 or 21 days in primary.. I think this is your best shot to complete this beer.

If you are racking beer primary to secondary, you may wish to abandon that. I did it 2 times in the beginning, and gave up on it.. I really found no benefit in it. 60 batches later and Im still doing complete fermentations in primary.

 

[JayEff]

Nope, not doing a secondary, that's why I asked if it's necessary when reusing a yeast cake. I do have yeast nutrient. Why should I need to oxigenate the beer? I thought oxigen is only needed for reproduction, and since I'd already have a huge cell count I should be fine, right? I figured agitating would be mostly for getting yeast into suspension. Although naturally there would be oxigen present either way since I'd be racking into a fermenter that doesn't have a co2 blanket anymore...

I'll definitely be using yeast nutrient from now on. It's definitely cheap enough to be worth it. I will do just that, brewing my citra pale ale now and using its yeast cake. Was planning on us-05 for that. This is an unrelated question but, what would be the temperature schedule for that yeast? I have unfortunately very little control over my temps but would at least like to know what my goal is.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Nope, not doing a secondary, that's why I asked if it's necessary when reusing a yeast cake. I do have yeast nutrient. Why should I need to oxigenate the beer? I thought oxigen is only needed for reproduction, and since I'd already have a huge cell count I should be fine, right? I figured agitating would be mostly for getting yeast into suspension. Although naturally there would be oxigen present either way since I'd be racking into a fermenter that doesn't have a co2 blanket anymore...

I'll definitely be using yeast nutrient from now on. It's definitely cheap enough to be worth it. I will do just that, brewing my citra pale ale now and using its yeast cake. Was planning on us-05 for that. This is an unrelated question but, what would be the temperature schedule for that yeast? I have unfortunately very little control over my temps but would at least like to know what my goal is.

The yeast will need to go through all phases of its cycle, however less so because the cell count will be very high. Hence, the need for oxygen. You might find this interesting, its from the fermentis site. Good recommendations for ferm temps.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1498013469.635668.jpg

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SafAle-US-053.pdf

 

[JayEff]

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SafAle-US-053.pdf

Thanks! Wow, my homebrewing online store is completely wrong on this one, it says: fermentation temperature: 12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 15-22°C (59-71.6°F)

So since Safale recommends 18-28°C, I presume the right approach would be starting low, 18°C for 2-3 days, then moving to a warmer place, perhaps 22-24°C?

Say, when I rack my stuck beer onto a yeast cake, since it'll be going through all its phases, should I start with a low temperature?