New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Frieds]

I know this has been mentioned in the past, particularly by @couchsending, but I’ve had really great results with mashing at 5.4 and then dropping to 5.1 with lactic acid in the BK (before hopping). No true side-by-sides for direct comparison, but the hop character seems to pop more without bringing accompanied bitterness. Definitely recommend it!

I re-listened to the craft beer and brewing podcast with Henry from Monkish again last week and he said that they aim for 5.0

 

[couchsending]

I’ve heard Dan Suarez say 5.0-5.2... Chad Yakobsen say 4.9-5.1 for every beer. Henry say 5.0... brew log for Pliny say 5.07... brew log for a pastry stout at HPB say 5.01 KO pH... Local 50,000 BBL brewery shoots for 5-5.1.

Personally I think especially for very hoppy beers and especially ones with large WP charges it does help with a better fermentation as the yeasties don’t need to work quite as hard to drop pH and get fermentation going. I’ve never bothered doing a side by side (yes I know Brulosophy has) to see how low pH gets when not adjusting at KO. We know hops increase pH. Recently heard on a podcast (can’t remember which) that they do contain alkalinity which I had never really thought about but clearly makes sense. If you’re adding a ton of hops you’re essentially adding more buffering capacity to your wort. In my book the lower the pH of the final beer the cleaner/crisper the flavors become. Especially when adding these huge DH additions which will again raise pH if you start with a lower value you might be better off??? I think there are studies that say certain chemical reactions occur with hops when pH is within a certain band... 4.2-4.4 I believe?

Most of my ferments with VT Ale recently have been bottoming out slightly below 4.1 then rising a bit at the very end then increasing with DH (haven’t measured a post DH in a while). Using the Bells yeast a bit too lately and that yeast never seems to get much below 4.4 or 4.35 for some reason??

 

[Dgallo]

mash 152°

4.2 gallons pre-boil
3.5 gallons post-boil

Based on your post boil volume I got a 1.050 at 70% efficiency or 1.054 at 75%. If you boiled to exactly 2.5 gallons then yes, you would have got a 1.070 at 70% efficiency or 1.075 at 75%.

 

[jturman35]

I am really interested in taking my beer to the next level. I’m basically building my water up from distilled and haven’t paid attention to any ph adjustments other than in my mash.

Do you guys who adjust your ph post boil feel it really made a huge impact? Seems like I got some learning to do!

 

[joncrook]

Based on your post boil volume I got a 1.050 at 70% efficiency or 1.054 at 75%. If you boiled to exactly 2.5 gallons then yes, you would have got a 1.070 at 70% efficiency or 1.075 at 75%.

Alright cool, thank you for clearing that up for me. I’m extremely new to brewing, so some of this stuff is a head scratcher, haha

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I am really interested in taking my beer to the next level. I’m basically building my water up from distilled and haven’t paid attention to any ph adjustments other than in my mash.

Do you guys who adjust your ph post boil feel it really made a huge impact? Seems like I got some learning to do!

I’ve been treating my mash with lactic Acid to target ph to be under 5.4, usually hit 5.35ish. I also make sure my sparge water is under 6.0 but haven’t treated post boil ph myself. I’m finding over the first 7 brews I’ve done, I’m only needing to add about 0.5-1.5ml for mash to hit that target so it’s seems to be a lot less than others are doing here.

 

[pmaster]

Just brewed this (original recipe) on Friday. Added dry hopped today. Can I hope to drink this in 7 days?

 

[SRJHops]

Just brewed this (original recipe) on Friday. Added dry hopped today. Can I hope to drink this in 7 days?

Patience, young padawan. Sure, in theory fermentation could be complete in 3-4 days, and you could give it a few days to clean up diacetyl and such, but what's the rush?

Most any beer really needs 10-14 days in the fermentor, IMHO. Plus this style usually needs some time to condition and settle down a bit.

Yeah, you could probably drink something in 7 days, but it will probably be pretty green and not the best expression of your beer.

 

[jturman35]

My last batch went 16days in the conical.

 

[Oldskewl]

so I brewed this today. And on paper I should be in the 7% abv range, right ? My OG was only 1.048.

Anybody have any suggestions ? I also threw in my whirlpool hops loose instead of in a muslin bag this time. I’m just stumped. It’s like my fourth NEIPA I’ve brewed and it’s like I’m always at 1.048

Looks like you started with too much water. How are you calculating your water volumes? I do BIAB and usually start with approximately 8 gal pre mash on a grain bill that size for a 5 gal batch. Pre boil is then approximately 7 gal and post boil approximately 5.5 gal. Hope this helps. Every system is different. You need to figure out yours.

 

[isomerization]

Patience, young padawan. Sure, in theory fermentation could be complete in 3-4 days, and you could give it a few days to clean up diacetyl and such, but what's the rush?

Most any beer really needs 10-14 days in the fermentor, IMHO. Plus this style usually needs some time to condition and settle down a bit.

Yeah, you could probably drink something in 7 days, but it will probably be pretty green and not the best expression of your beer.

Clean up phase is a myth. Happens during active fermentation. Yeast that aren’t metabolically active aren’t cleaning up your mess!

10-14 days is close enough not to quibble, but if you aren’t doing something to the beer like dry hopping or a quick cold crash then move forward with packaging.

Looking at my Tilt data, even with my IPAs I am packaging by day 10-12 (with soft crash on day 6). I do reasonable sized starters (1-2 L), so it’s not like I’m pitching Herculean amounts of yeast.

 

[Dgallo]

Clean up phase is a myth. Happens during active fermentation. Yeast that aren’t metabolically active aren’t cleaning up your mess!.

I would have to respectfuly disagree. I’ve personally experienced some vdk at fg but 4 days later and no change in gravity but no more vdk even with a force test.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Final gravity plays one of the biggest roles in building recipes, and how those recipes are perceived by the drinker. Most people have had that prototypical cloying hazy that finished at 1020 and has zero boil additions. However if it's a layered approach that we are taking with the hops, all of a sudden your 40 ibu boil addition isn't percieved nearly as bitter with all that residual sugar finishing at 1020.
With that being said I prefer a higher mash temp 154-156f mainly to enhance body/mouthfeel, as the residual sugar sweetness is heavily offset by my boil additions/dh/water chem etc.

@Loud Brewing so from this last post - I've targeted 154-155 for mash temps on my last two brews (instead of the 152 I targeted with my first several brews) in order to build a better and relatively more full/juicy mouthfeel. Both of these home-brews are in fermenters right now getting ready to dry hop but the hydrometer readings on both at end of fermentation hit 1.014 (my previous beers targeting 152 mash temp all hit 1.010-1.011 like clockwork). One of these new ones used Voss Kviek and the other A24 Dry Hop....by gosh! the mouthfeel on these two are amazingly better imo. They have a more fuller/juicier mouthfeel that Ive been looking for but not overly sweet. A perfect balance for my personal preference. Can't wait to taste the final products on both of these. Thanks!

 

[pmaster]

I guess I can be a bit more patient then. Since it'll be my first time kegging I was looking forward to drinking carbonated neipa's faster!

Patience, young padawan. Sure, in theory fermentation could be complete in 3-4 days, and you could give it a few days to clean up diacetyl and such, but what's the rush?

Most any beer really needs 10-14 days in the fermentor, IMHO. Plus this style usually needs some time to condition and settle down a bit.

Yeah, you could probably drink something in 7 days, but it will probably be pretty green and not the best expression of your beer.

 

[isomerization]

I would have to respectfuly disagree. I’ve personally experienced some vdk at fg but 4 days later and no change in gravity but no more vdk even with a force test.

Something that’s happened to you once (and I’m assuming this was taste only, not a lab test), doesn’t really compel me to believe there is a “clean-up” phase.

Why is one of the recommendations for diacetyl removal to krausen? We all know there is plenty of yeast still in suspension even once beer is removed from the yeast cake. Shouldn’t these remaining yeast be able to handle the diacetyl removal?

I did a reasonable amount of literature searching to try and find something more conclusive, but couldn’t find what I was looking for. If anyone has a scientific article to share, I’m happy to revise my position!

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Clean up phase is a myth. Happens during active fermentation. Yeast that aren’t metabolically active aren’t cleaning up your mess!

We all know there is plenty of yeast still in suspension even once beer is removed from the yeast cake. Shouldn’t these remaining yeast be able to handle the diacetyl removal?

OK, because Im totally new to homebrewing, Ill respond simply because I don't know any better and wish to really learn a better answer to this question: "why do we need time for yeast to clean up". There is plenty of online information favoring the "diacetyl rest" but most all references I find are simply from online magazines such as BYO etc. For example: https://byo.com/article/brewing-science-controlling-diacetyl/

So here are my questions/comments/inquiries: HOW do yeast actually "clean up" diacetyl? Is this really known? From what Ive read, yeast produce the precursor to diacetyl, acetolactate, that "leaks out" from the yeast during active fermentation. The online readings Ive found then promote the "diacetyl rest" which means for 2-3 days after terminal gravity is reached the yeast will "scrub" or "clean-up" the diacetyl it produced. How? The reason why I ask "how" is because if the yeast ingest the diacetyl than that implies the yeast do need to be metabolically active to properly clean up the diacetyl. If this is true then Im not sure that the second quote from @isomerization is possible because it would appear that based on @isomerization first quote, yeast are only metabolically active during active fermentation. The two quotes seem contradictory to me. However, if yeast has the capacity to "clean-up" diacetyl simply by physically binding to it, then it would be possible that as long as yeast are in suspension that it can clean up diacetyl even after active fermentation and even if yeast isn't metabolically active. Then when the cold crash comes, it all drops out. Again, Im showing my lack of knowledge here lol. So my total noob question still remains: how does yeast "clean up" diacetyl?

@isomerization my comments here are by no means trying to be combative at all, but I am trying to understand these processes better myself especially if they could potentially influence my processes in the quest to make awesome sauce beer. Why do you think this is a myth? Is this simply a case of "old school" brewers spreading the good word on their processes? I really don't have a dog in the fight whether its a myth or not, but would rather base my decisions on science but unaware of any science behind it either way.

FWIW, I have subscribed to the diacetyl rest period to let the yeast "clean up" by waiting 2ish days before soft crashing simply because I'm: 1) paranoid of getting an off flavored beer 2) Im patient and not in a rush anyways so its "no harm no foul" for me and 3) because Ive only brewed 7 batches ever! lol.

Anyways, this is a good convo and hopefully I'll learn something either way. If diacetyl rest isn't necessary, then Id be happy to save 2-3 days.

 

[InspectorJon]

OK, because Im totally new to homebrewing, Ill respond simply because I don't know any better and wish to really learn a better answer to this question: "why do we need time for yeast to clean up". If diacetyl rest isn't necessary, then Id be happy to save 2-3 days.

There is an entire forum section on Fermentation and Yeast with lots of scientific thinking yeast "experts". That might be a better place to ask this question.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

There is an entire forum section on Fermentation and Yeast with lots of scientific thinking yeast "experts". That might be a better place to ask this question.

Yes, after reading through @isomerization and @Dgallo s comments on the "clean up" phase that yeast do after fermentation is done, I did look there as well and while lots do recommend the diacetyl rest (there are lots of threads on this topic there in that forum - and searching is endless with over 105 results) and Ive yet to find exact answers to my questions existing in those threads. I did find though that most appear to favor it in those threads. Most of those threads were not about "should I do the diacetyl rest" but "when should I do it". I only responded here based on the convos before my post. If you are aware of a thread over there that goes into the logistics and science though please either post here or just pm me the link as searching in that forum (or any in HBT) is sometimes difficult without spending hours on end going through all the results. Cheers!

 

[Hannabrew]

Personally I think Iso and DGallo are both right, it's merely semantics. Clean up phase simply means letting fermentation actually finish. Just because gravity doesn't change by our measurements doesn't mean there isn't some level of fermentation happening and the tail end of it is where much of the cleanup is done. I've definitely been burned by crashing beer too early even though the readings hadn't moved in a couple days.

Your taste buds are your best tool for determining when fermentation is complete (well, that plus a FFT)

 

[isomerization]

@Noob_Brewer I found this paper, written by @suregork (maybe he can chime in) on diacetyl in beer:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.84

It seems the mechanism’s for the how part are not totally understood.

“The process of diacetyl reduction by yeast is not as well understood as the process of formation, but is dependent on factors such as physiological condition, cell membrane composition, temperature and pH. The process of diacetyl removal is typically rate‐limited by the reaction rate for the spontaneous decarboxylation of α‐acetolactate to diacetyl.”

Regarding the two quotes, my question was saying the same thing, why isn’t diacetyl cleaned up?

Finally, my understanding of a diacetyl rest is that you bump the temp up while fermentation is still going (say 3/4 of the way to completion), not after activity has stopped.

 

[Hannabrew]

I am really interested in taking my beer to the next level. I’m basically building my water up from distilled and haven’t paid attention to any ph adjustments other than in my mash.

Do you guys who adjust your ph post boil feel it really made a huge impact? Seems like I got some learning to do!

A KO ph drop will help with the following

1) Lowers chance of contamination
2) Shorter lag time
3) Reduces astringency in WP and DH additions
4) Lower final pH which usually equals crisper finish

Calculating them can be challenging however. In my experience I start with a mL or 2 of 85% phosphoric around the 10 minute mark and measure and adjust until I hit 5.1 (coming from 5.4-5.5 in the boil).

 

[Frieds]

This is my latest attempt. I’m in love with the colour. This is also the first hazy I’ve made without Citra that I’ve actually been completely happy with.

 

[jturman35]

A KO ph drop will help with the following

1) Lowers chance of contamination
2) Shorter lag time
3) Reduces astringency in WP and DH additions
4) Lower final pH which usually equals crisper finish

Calculating them can be challenging however. In my experience I start with a mL or 2 of 85% phosphoric around the 10 minute mark and measure and adjust until I hit 5.1 (coming from 5.4-5.5 in the boil).

Thanks! I’m going to give this a whirl on the next batch.

 

[rmeskill]

Just cold-crashed mine brewed from the recipe in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-165#post-8299060
Shuffled the hops around a bit, though-went with Amarillo/Citra in the boil, then Mosaic/Nelson Sauvin in the whirlpool and first dry hop then all Mosaic in the final dry hop. Just had an extra 100g/3oz of Nelson Sauvin and thought it might be an interesting addition. So far it has given it a bit of that pineapple sharpness/astringency, but I'll bottle today and see how it pans out and check back.

 

[beervoid]

@Noob_Brewer I found this paper, written by @suregork (maybe he can chime in) on diacetyl in beer:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.84

It seems the mechanism’s for the how part are not totally understood.

“The process of diacetyl reduction by yeast is not as well understood as the process of formation, but is dependent on factors such as physiological condition, cell membrane composition, temperature and pH. The process of diacetyl removal is typically rate‐limited by the reaction rate for the spontaneous decarboxylation of α‐acetolactate to diacetyl.”

Regarding the two quotes, my question was saying the same thing, why isn’t diacetyl cleaned up?

Finally, my understanding of a diacetyl rest is that you bump the temp up while fermentation is still going (say 3/4 of the way to completion), not after activity has stopped.

Ales def clean their diacetyl up fast at high temps but if hop creep occurs and you dont give your beer ample time you can run into diacetyl problems.

 

[Hannabrew]

This is my latest attempt. I’m in love with the colour. This is also the first hazy I’ve made without Citra that I’ve actually been completely happy with. View attachment 670332

That is a nice color. Needs some head though!

What's the grist?

 

[Frieds]

That is a nice color. Needs some head though!

What's the grist?

 

[SRJHops]

That is a nice color. Needs some head though!

What's the grist?

For some reason this style often seems to kill foam/head retention -- is it the oats? I can't tell you how many commercial versions I've had that had zero head retention. It costs more to add some carafoam, flaked barley, or (more?) wheat malt. But it's certainly possible to have some great head retention with this style.

Looks like that recipe had carafoam and wheat malt, so my bet is on the large amount of oats. Maybe dial that down and/or add some flaked barley?

 

[BeerFst]

For some reason this style often seems to kill foam/head retention -- is it the oats? I can't tell you how many commercial versions I've had that had zero head retention. It costs more to add some carafoam, flaked barley, or (more?) wheat malt. But it's certainly possible to have some great head retention with this style.

Looks like that recipe had carafoam and wheat malt, so my bet is on the large amount of oats. Maybe dial that down and/or add some flaked barley?

the 50% oat beer i just did (6.5 lbs 2 row, 4lbs oat malt, 2lbs flaked oats, .5lb GNO, 4.5G batch) has pretty great head retention, and very nice lacing (not shown). I'm thinking its the GNO. My previous NEIPA was wheat and oat malt (nothing flaked) and just didnt have the same effect. I read on beer and brewing that polyphenols also help alot. this beer as 7oz of Galaxy in the dry hop, and we all know how much poly Galaxy has, so I'm wondering if that played a factor. I had also mashed at 154, another point in the quote below

"The polyphenols in hops are actually critical to retaining foam bubbles, so go ahead and pile on the hops if it is appropriate to the style you are brewing. Brewing techniques also come into play. For example, choosing a higher mash temperature, such as something in the 154–158°F (68–70°C) range, will result in longer dextrin chains in the finished beer and lower attenuation during fermentation, which will enhance the head retention." https://beerandbrewing.com/ask-the-experts-improving-head-retention-for-your-beer/

 

[aaronm13]

Thinking ahead to a future brew and would like advice on hop combinations. Was at a beer festival 2 weeks ago and had some incredible Trillium and Other Half Triple IPAs and also a collaboration between the two and honestly its one of the smoothest beers I've ever tasted and zero alcohol for an 11% beer. So this has inspired me to brew a TIPA.

I brew on a Grainfather so that's going to be a challenge volume wise so will have to do a reiterated mash. Anyway, onto the hops. Trying to get a handle on combinations and amounts. Listening to that Hop Butcher podcast that was posted a while ago brought up something seriously interesting about basing hop volume on the hops total oil composition so I started looking at hop oil on hopslist.com and starts making sense.

Firstly I'm thinking of going for Mosaic, Simcoe and El Dorado. Has anyone used this combination before? Is it a good choice? Trying to use some different hops this time for a change, also have half a pound of Medusa and half pound of Ekuanot that I would like to use sometime so open to substitutes.

Back to my 3 choices going off the oil composition
Mosaic = 1-1.5ml/ 100g
Simcoe = 2-2.5ml/ 100g
El Dorado = 2.5 - 3.3ml/ 100g

So to get a nice balance I'm thinking a 3:2:1 Mosaic: Simcoe: El Dorado. As El Dorado has the highest oil composition I'm thinking this should be the lowest amount and Mosaic has the lowest oils so should use the most. Am I over thinking this and totally missing the point made in that podcaast? Still not comfortable creating my own recipes and when I do the hops are usually very unbalanced. Almost always go 1:1 and doesnt always work.

Never brewed a TIPA before so should I shoot for a higher IBU in this style? usually aim for 40-45 IBU in Beersmith when the ABV is around 6-8%. Sorry for the really long post by the way.