New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

Thinking ahead to a future brew and would like advice on hop combinations. Was at a beer festival 2 weeks ago and had some incredible Trillium and Other Half Triple IPAs and also a collaboration between the two and honestly its one of the smoothest beers I've ever tasted and zero alcohol for an 11% beer. So this has inspired me to brew a TIPA.

I brew on a Grainfather so that's going to be a challenge volume wise so will have to do a reiterated mash. Anyway, onto the hops. Trying to get a handle on combinations and amounts. Listening to that Hop Butcher podcast that was posted a while ago brought up something seriously interesting about basing hop volume on the hops total oil composition so I started looking at hop oil on hopslist.com and starts making sense.

Firstly I'm thinking of going for Mosaic, Simcoe and El Dorado. Has anyone used this combination before? Is it a good choice? Trying to use some different hops this time for a change, also have half a pound of Medusa and half pound of Ekuanot that I would like to use sometime so open to substitutes.

Back to my 3 choices going off the oil composition
Mosaic = 1-1.5ml/ 100g
Simcoe = 2-2.5ml/ 100g
El Dorado = 2.5 - 3.3ml/ 100g

So to get a nice balance I'm thinking a 3:2:1 Mosaic: Simcoe: El Dorado. As El Dorado has the highest oil composition I'm thinking this should be the lowest amount and Mosaic has the lowest oils so should use the most. Am I over thinking this and totally missing the point made in that podcaast? Still not comfortable creating my own recipes and when I do the hops are usually very unbalanced. Almost always go 1:1 and doesnt always work.

Never brewed a TIPA before so should I shoot for a higher IBU in this style? usually aim for 40-45 IBU in Beersmith when the ABV is around 6-8%. Sorry for the really long post by the way.

Absolutely you need to up ibus. I targeted 80 in my last triple and it drank like 30-40 ibus in a single.

Something that might help you is, I degassed the Dream Lab collaboration between OH and EQ and it finished 1.020 which was a non lactose triple from them at 10.5%. I targeted that fg by using some dextrose and hit 1.018. Seemed to work well

 

[aaronm13]

Absolutely you need to up ibus. I targeted 80 in my last triple and it drank like 30-40 ibus in a single.

Something that might help you is, I degassed the Dream Lab collaboration between OH and EQ and it finished 1.020 which was a non lactose triple from them at 10.5%. I targeted that fg by using some dextrose and hit 1.018. Seemed to work well

Thanks Dgallo, had a feeling IBUs would need to be upped. Still at the design stage, a bit of thought will go into this one. I usually aim for a finish of around 1.020 so that will work. Going to use Omega DIPA which shouldn't have any problem. What percentage of the grain bill would Dextrose be? Haven't used it before but will be using bit this weekend in a double NEIPA to get the grain bill down. Any thoughts on the hop combination, have you used those 3 together before?

 

[nebulabrewing]

My latest NEIPA.

5.9%
60IBU
White Labs London Fog Ale Yeast

Golden Promise
White Wheat
Flaked Oats
Honey Malt

Citra
Galaxy
Azacca

Starting to carb one week in. Discovered my inkbird calibration is off. Mashed low at 148. Tasting great thus far!

 

[SRJHops]

the 50% oat beer i just did (6.5 lbs 2 row, 4lbs oat malt, 2lbs flaked oats, .5lb GNO, 4.5G batch) has pretty great head retention, and very nice lacing (not shown). I'm thinking its the GNO. My previous NEIPA was wheat and oat malt (nothing flaked) and just didnt have the same effect. I read on beer and brewing that polyphenols also help alot. this beer as 7oz of Galaxy in the dry hop, and we all know how much poly Galaxy has, so I'm wondering if that played a factor. I had also mashed at 154, another point in the quote belowView attachment 670353

"The polyphenols in hops are actually critical to retaining foam bubbles, so go ahead and pile on the hops if it is appropriate to the style you are brewing. Brewing techniques also come into play. For example, choosing a higher mash temperature, such as something in the 154–158°F (68–70°C) range, will result in longer dextrin chains in the finished beer and lower attenuation during fermentation, which will enhance the head retention." https://beerandbrewing.com/ask-the-experts-improving-head-retention-for-your-beer/

GNO being the oats, right? (I think GNO is a crystal malt?) But yeah, seems like flaked oats cause a lot of trouble... I switched to malted oats and my beers have plenty of foam and never drop clear.

That's very interesting - the part about mash temps. I don't think I've heard that before - that higher temps can help with head retention. I've been mashing around 156 and finishing at 1.020 or so. I figured it was the wheat malt, flaked barley, and carafoam that was doing the trick for the great head retention I am getting, but maybe it was really the mash temp?!

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks Dgallo, had a feeling IBUs would need to be upped. Still at the design stage, a bit of thought will go into this one. I usually aim for a finish of around 1.020 so that will work. Going to use Omega DIPA which shouldn't have any problem. What percentage of the grain bill would Dextrose be? Haven't used it before but will be using bit this weekend in a double NEIPA to get the grain bill down. Any thoughts on the hop combination, have you used those 3 together before?

I personally hate el dorado, so you m def bias towards it but I love simcoe mosaic combo. Simcoe is mosaic’s dad so they work very good together.

I don’t have my notes in front of me but if I remember correctly it was 23 lbs of grain and .75lbs of dextrose. My efficiency drops to close to 65% in big beers, so it was roughly 3%

 

[BeerFst]

GNO being the oats, right? (I think GNO is a crystal malt?) But yeah, seems like flaked oats cause a lot of trouble... I switched to malted oats and my beers have plenty of foam and never drop clear.

That's very interesting - the part about mash temps. I don't think I've heard that before - that higher temps can help with head retention. I've been mashing around 156 and finishing at 1.020 or so. I figured it was the wheat malt, flaked barley, and carafoam that was doing the trick for the great head retention I am getting, but maybe it was really the mash temp?!

GNO - Golden Naked Oats, so yeah. They are a crystal malt, but they don't taste that way, they arent super sweet, i dont really think they added any sweetness actually. I would be very wary of adding 8 oz of C10 or C15, definitely not Honey Malt. My previous batches have topped out at 4 oz of any one of those.

I also just checked the simpsons page, and they noted "It also helps produce a creamy, robust head". https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/sim-golden-naked-oats-25kg

Even before i switched to malted i never seemed to have a problem with beers dropping clear for whatever reason. previous batches were mostly white wheat malt driven though, which a smaller amount of flaked. That batch that was no flaked at all did get clearer over the 4 months i had it, but was still pretty hazy. (off topic, but it also got exposed to air due to a leaky post, and ended up oxidized but only in color, the aroma stayed pretty good and i never picked up the cardboard).

This particular beer stalled and also finished at 1.02 (1.015 target), and 5.5 ABV (6.3 target). I'd like to try this recipe a little bit bigger to get a body boost from the extra ABV (6.5+). I'd also be interested in doing a version with malted/flaked wheat in the same ratios. the carafoam is a source of dextrin which would be accomplishing the same thing as the higher mash. i only just picked up some carafoam to play with as i found it at one of my LHBS that i dont visit all that often.

 

[InspectorJon]

I don’t have my notes in front of me but if I remember correctly it was 23 lbs of grain and .75lbs of dextrose.

Dextrose is just corn sugar right? That would typically serve to lower final gravity.

 

[couchsending]

No foam problems here

GW Idaho Select
8% Carafoam
2% Honey
.5% Caraaroma

 

[BeerFst]

Dextrose is just corn sugar right? That would typically serve to lower final gravity.

Yea to the corn sugar sorta to the rest. It doesn’t really reduce fg but stops it from being higher. I think it’s better stated as increasing abv without adding fg, whereas adding more grain to do the same increase to og would also increase your fg.

the only way to consider it would decrease fg, is by targeting a certain og, say 1.060. If you did all grain to get there it would likely have a higher fg than if you replace a portion of that grain with dextrose

 

[Dgallo]

Dextrose is just corn sugar right? That would typically serve to lower final gravity.

Yes, it’s corn sugar. It doesn’t technically lower fg (though the increased alcohol created could lower your fg) but In high grainbills where efficiency drops, it allows you to raise the abv without raising your fg.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

That's very interesting - the part about mash temps. I don't think I've heard that before - that higher temps can help with head retention. I've been mashing around 156 and finishing at 1.020 or so. I figured it was the wheat malt, flaked barley, and carafoam that was doing the trick for the great head retention I am getting, but maybe it was really the mash temp?!

Having initially learned my homebrewing the old school European (German) way, I always do a step mash with rests at 144-145, then 161-162 and mashout at 172. And head retention has always been the least of my concerns, on any beer I brewed so far, with any grain bill.
Some time ago I played with the idea of giving up my step-mashing routine in favor of a more straightforward single infusion, yet the more I read about this, the more I become convinced that step mashing may indeed benefit head retention in a very significant way.

 

[beervoid]

Having initially learned my homebrewing the old school European (German) way, I always do a step mash with rests at 144-145, then 161-162 and mashout at 172. And head retention has always been the least of my concerns, on any beer I brewed so far, with any grain bill.
Some time ago I played with the idea of giving up my step-mashing routine in favor of a more straightforward single infusion, yet the more I read about this, the more I become convinced that step mashing may indeed benefit head retention in a very significant way.

I do single infusion and have great head retention. I think PH control and the proper grainbill is the main thing. Yeast also has an effect.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I do single infusion and have great head retention. I think PH control and the proper grainbill is the main thing. Yeast also has an effect.

I did not mean to say that it is not possible to have good head retention with single infusion. But I was always kind of surprised to read about seemingly quite many homebrewers/brewers trying all kinds of tricks to imporve it. I never had any problems with head retention, even for my initial attempts where my pH control was all but ideal. I also did not use any carafoam, flaked grains or other high protein grains in most of my beers. So I have come to believe that my step mashing routine might be a major contributor to head retention for my specific way of doing things. But as usual in brewing, there are so many factors that can affect the outcome...

 

[aaronm13]

I personally hate el dorado, so you m def bias towards it but I love simcoe mosaic combo. Simcoe is mosaic’s dad so they work very good together.

I don’t have my notes in front of me but if I remember correctly it was 23 lbs of grain and .75lbs of dextrose. My efficiency drops to close to 65% in big beers, so it was roughly 3%

Just checked my recipe there and the dextrose is 7% of the grain bill, does that seem too high?

El Dorado seems like one of those hops, i really like it. Good to know Mosaic and Simcose work well, what ratio would you use both? Heavier on the mosaic or a 50/50 split?

 

[Dgallo]

Just checked my recipe there and the dextrose is 7% of the grain bill, does that seem too high?

So you brew 2.5 gallon batches? If so then I would drop it 0.3lbs then.

El Dorado seems like one of those hops, i really like it. Good to know Mosaic and Simcose work well, what ratio would you use both? Heavier on the mosaic or a 50/50 split?

I want it to come off a little fruitier so I do a 2:1 ratio mosaic to simcoe. 1 to 1 will def work but will pull more earth/dank/pine notes out of both hops. If that’s the profile you like then it will be great

 

[aaronm13]

So you brew 2.5 gallon batches? If so then I would drop it 0.3lbs then.


I want it to come off a little fruitier so I do a 2:1 ratio mosaic to simcoe. 1 to 1 will def work but will pull more earth/dank/pine notes out of both hops. If that’s the profile you like then it will be great

I try and get around 5.5-6 galons into the fermenter so I can try and get a full serving keg so what would you think the appropriate dextrose amount would be?

I definitely want to be on the fruiter side so will go more Mosaic for sure.

 

[couchsending]

I did not mean to say that it is not possible to have good head retention with single infusion. But I was always kind of surprised to read about seemingly quite many homebrewers/brewers trying all kinds of tricks to imporve it. I never had any problems with head retention, even for my initial attempts where my pH control was all but ideal. I also did not use any carafoam, flaked grains or other high protein grains in most of my beers. So I have come to believe that my step mashing routine might be a major contributor to head retention for my specific way of doing things. But as usual in brewing, there are so many factors that can affect the outcome...

Step mashing is key.. and proper cellaring techniques.. grain bill is probably the third most important.. trying to think if I’ve ever read anything about pH when it comes to head. I can’t think of anything. Oh and properly cleaned glassware!

The 160-162 step is the step that’s optimum for producing the proteins that will aid in head retention. It can also help in palate fullness. It’s also the optimum temp for Alpha.

I will generally step most beers at 145/162/170. Sometimes I’ll change the temps a few degrees or change the amount of time at the lowest step.

There is an interesting article with KC Bier in the latest CB&B where they talk about adding a 126 step to a beer which they did point out with today’s malts shouldn’t be needed but it did result in the best head on any beer they’ve ever made.... Tried it in a Helles earlier this week.

The malt I’ve found to make the biggest difference in head retention is Chit malt. I don’t think Carafoam really does much.. wheat is somewhere in between.

What goes on in the fermenter is also key. Keeping as much trub out of the fermenter as possible. Keeping fermentation under control. Getting the yeast out of the beer or the beer off the yeast as soon as possible. Conditioning times/temps and how you chose to get there. These all have an impact on foam.

 

[Dgallo]

I try and get around 5.5-6 galons into the fermenter so I can try and get a full serving keg so what would you think the appropriate dextrose amount would be?

Sorry, I think I’m confused then. If 0.75lbs of dextrose would be 7% of your grainbill, that means your grainbill is just around 10.5 lbs. If this is a 5 gallon batch, how is this making a triple IPA. I think I may have miss read one of your previous posts

 

[isomerization]

No foam problems here

GW Idaho Select
8% Carafoam
2% Honey
.5% Caraaroma

View attachment 670400

Is this from a single pull on the tap or a slow pour style ala Bierstadt
Lagerhaus?

 

[Dgallo]

Is this from a single pull on the tap or a slow pour style ala Bierstadt
Lagerhaus?

Def has to be a slow pour. Def looks good. If you’ve ever been to Suarez, they slow pour all their beers before serving it to you. Def the best commercial foam I’ve seen

 

[isomerization]

Sorry, I think I’m confused then. If 0.75lbs of dextrose would be 7% of your grainbill, that means your grainbill is just around 10.5 lbs. If this is a 5 gallon batch, how is this making a triple IPA. I think I may have miss read one of your previous posts

I don’t think he ever specified the lbs if dextrose, looks like the 0.75 lb was on your recipe?

Def has to be a slow pour. Def looks good. If you’ve ever been to Suarez, they slow pour all their beers before serving it to you. Def the best commercial foam I’ve seen

I figured, but always good to confirm. I can do this with my single infusion beers as well (at least I think I can, going to confirm that tonight lol).

 

[ttuato]

Step mashing is key.. and proper cellaring techniques.. grain bill is probably the third most important.. trying to think if I’ve ever read anything about pH when it comes to head. I can’t think of anything. Oh and properly cleaned glassware!

The 160-162 step is the step that’s optimum for producing the proteins that will aid in head retention. It can also help in palate fullness. It’s also the optimum temp for Alpha.

I will generally step most beers at 145/162/170. Sometimes I’ll change the temps a few degrees or change the amount of time at the lowest step.

There is an interesting article with KC Bier in the latest CB&B where they talk about adding a 126 step to a beer which they did point out with today’s malts shouldn’t be needed but it did result in the best head on any beer they’ve ever made.... Tried it in a Helles earlier this week.

The malt I’ve found to make the biggest difference in head retention is Chit malt. I don’t think Carafoam really does much.. wheat is somewhere in between.

What goes on in the fermenter is also key. Keeping as much trub out of the fermenter as possible. Keeping fermentation under control. Getting the yeast out of the beer or the beer off the yeast as soon as possible. Conditioning times/temps and how you chose to get there. These all have an impact on foam.

• I agree with step mashing impact on foam - in fact it was @couchsending that opened my eyes to that technique about a year & half ago.
• Clean glassware - yep that too
• Clear wort to fermenter - yep that too, but going to extreme measures to eliminate trub... meh. Some is good for the yeast. I let about a pint go through - no appreciable difference in foam
• Chit malt, flaked barley, carahell - all are comparable in my experience to enhancing foam, but do not appear to be "additive" or "synergistic" in my experience. Use either and get a substantial improvement but using all three at same time does not make the foam any better - you will hit a threshold. (All my recipes have one or the other in them now)
• Proper pressure in beer & proper draft line length
• Getting the beer of the yeast - I humbly disagree with this notion. I have been brewing for almost five years and have never pulled beer off the yeast / dropped the yeast cake. By doing ALL of the above however, I can make every IPA/Pilsner I brew look like the slow pour head that @couchsending posted above (looks awesome BTW).

• Fermentation control - I have done this from day one and have never tested, so I cannot speak to this
  
• Yeast selection - absolutely makes a difference but it is subtle in my experience. I have noticed differences in bubble size / lacing depending on the yeast.
• Polyphenols - possibly, not enough science here

The one anecdotal point I will share is if you want to brew a NEIPA that has the best foam in a NEIPA you have ever seen - brew a NEIPA using all of the above. Then use ALL Galaxy in a 1.25oz/gal dryhop (yes that much) and Kveiking yeast from Imperial Organic. The foam literally feels like shaving cream and is 2-3fingers after 15-20mins in the glass

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Getting the beer of the yeast - I humbly disagree with this notion. I have been brewing for almost five years and have never pulled beer off the yeast / dropped the yeast cake. By doing ALL of the above however, I can make every IPA/Pilsner I brew look like the slow pour head that @couchsending posted above (looks awesome BTW).

Going to humbly disagree with this too. I routinely leave my beers for a minimum 3-4, but more often 6, weeks in primary on the yeast and that does not affect head retention in a negative way, at least for me. But I have no real terms of comparison here, other than anectodal.

I had once a Doppelbock showing a bit less head retention compared to my usual, that I left for ca. 2.5 months in primary on the yeast. But that beer was also borderline undercarbed, so it's difficult to tell whether it was the long time on the yeast, or the lower carbonation (probably the second).

Does bottle conditioning (or generally, natural carbonation) also affect foam/head retention?
I am still a bottler and was wondering now about that aspect, too.

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t think he ever specified the lbs if dextrose, looks like the 0.75 lb was on your recipe?

Yeah for some reason I thought he said he just plugged that amount into his recipe and it was 7%. My bad @aaronm13 I read to quick.

 

[aaronm13]

Sorry, I think I’m confused then. If 0.75lbs of dextrose would be 7% of your grainbill, that means your grainbill is just around 10.5 lbs. If this is a 5 gallon batch, how is this making a triple IPA. I think I may have miss read one of your previous posts

You might be mixing me up with another poster, you do help a lot of people on here. I just mentioned that the amount of dextrose was 7% of the grain bill, not the actual amounts of it. To get me a TIPA of 11.4% my grain bill is 23.32lbs. 7.5% is dextrose @ 1.74lbs. I think I might scale this back to around the 3-4% mark.

 

[exit8]

No foam problems here

GW Idaho Select
8% Carafoam
2% Honey
.5% Caraaroma

Spunded?

 

[Dgallo]

You might be mixing me up with another poster, you do help a lot of people on here. I just mentioned that the amount of dextrose was 7% of the grain bill, not the actual amounts of it. To get me a TIPA of 11.4% my grain bill is 23.32lbs. 7.5% is dextrose @ 1.74lbs. I think I might scale this back to around the 3-4% mark.

My bad brother. I probably wouldn’t go over a lb personally but yours is also a whole percent higher than mine was so it might help it’s drinkability

 

[couchsending]

Spunded?

yes actually... not to full Co2 levels but close enough.

I think natural carb does help certain characteristics of foam as well.

 

[BeerFst]

The one anecdotal point I will share is if you want to brew a NEIPA that has the best foam in a NEIPA you have ever seen - brew a NEIPA using all of the above. Then use ALL Galaxy in a 1.25oz/gal dryhop (yes that much) and Kveiking yeast from Imperial Organic. The foam literally feels like shaving cream and is 2-3fingers after 15-20mins in the glass

My experience agrees with this, 7oz in 4 gallons definitely meets this threshold. see post #11339

 

[aaronm13]

My bad brother. I probably wouldn’t go over a lb personally but yours is also a whole percent higher than mine was so it might help it’s drinkability

I'm going to dial it back alright, 7% does seem a bit on the high side. Thanks for all your help on this. Doing an 8% one this weekend with Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy so I'll experiment with a bit of dextrose on this one to see how it goes.