New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[VirginiaHops1]

I'm not saying you can't have stable haze from active fermentation dry hopping. But you seemed to imply a possiblereason his beer dropped clear was that he didn't do that and crashed his yeast first, e.g. there was no yeast present during dry hopping. This should not be detrimental to haze

 

[aaronm13]

I have been using 1.5 - 2 ounces per gallon in the dh for 5-gallon batches. But I keep seeing homebrew recipes from commercial brewers that recommend twice that

This is what always leaves doubt in my mind about Shellhammer's theory. Cloudwater from the UK who are on par with the likes of Other Half always put their dry hopping rates on their cans. Most of their DIPA's are hopped around 22g/L or around 2.9oz/ gallon if my math is correct.

Brewery's are in business to make money and if they could get the same results from using half the hops you better believe they would. I'd like to see this study applied to the likes or Citra or Mosaic for example which are more appropriate to this style.

 

[flintoid]

Can anyone explain what the heck is going on here. I've got two almost identical recipes, one stayed hazy till the end, the other is clearing up after just over a few weeks.

Batch one: stayed hazy till the keg kicked at least 5-6 weeks.
76% 2-row
10% White wheat
10% Oat malt
3% Honey malt
WP 4:2:2 Idaho 7, Citra, Mosaic, 20 min @ 190F and below.
DH: one "biotransform" at day 3, one at day 9 after soft crash: 1.5:1.5:.75 Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, both charges.
1st gen A38 Juice

Batch two: clearing up now and it's day 27.
80% 2-row
8% White wheat
8% Oat malt
4% Golden naked oats
WP 2:4 Idaho 7, Mosaic, 20 min @ 180F and below.
DH: one massive after soft crashing 2:4:6 Galaxy,Mosaic,Citra
2nd gen A38 Juice

What gives? Grain bills almost identical. My process and additions, pH, are pretty close. The only thing I can think of is it had to do something with the way the beers were dry hopped? Maybe the timing and even more hops = less hazy? Do subsequent generations of A38 become more flocculant? Cheers.

Did you jostle the 2nd batch during it's shelf-life? @Dgallo has reported this to crash out haze and I've experienced the exact same phenomena. I moved a keg of NEIPA that I've made about 6 times and it crashed clear after I hooked it up to my kegerator in my back yard after a day of sitting out there.

one of the ways I can keep stable haze is by canning my batch in the week after it's been fully carbonated. The haze then "remains stable" for months on end.

 

[Andre3000]

Did you jostle the 2nd batch during it's shelf-life? @Dgallo has reported this to crash out haze and I've experienced the exact same phenomena. I moved a keg of NEIPA that I've made about 6 times and it crashed clear after I hooked it up to my kegerator in my back yard after a day of sitting out there.

one of the ways I can keep stable haze is by canning my batch in the week after it's been fully carbonated. The haze then "remains stable" for months on end.

Actually, I shook carbed it... I don't remember what I did with the other one.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Whats your water profile for NEIPA? Sapwood Cellars seems to shoot for 150ppm CL: 100ppm SO4 (Janish book), my personal NEIPA on what I brewed last was targeting: Ca=100, Mg=18, Na=16, SO4=100, CL=200 (all in ppm units). I really liked this malty/viscous mouthfeel as it helps to come across as "juicy" to me. What are ya'll targeting? Seems to me that some here may prefer still higher SO4 to Chloride, or even (1:1) SO4 to Chloride ratios. Do you have a singular NEIPA profile or several depending on your sub-style of NEIPA? Does it make a difference if its a "regular" NEIPA or an oat cream (other half type) NEIPA?

I thought this post might do well in a different forum on water/beer science, but interested in water profiles ya'll been using specific to NEIPA style beers. Looking forward to some lively discussion lol.

 

[BBQB]

How many days do you guys ferment before dry hopping? I’m on day 5. It’s almost at fg. I was thinking about dry hopping today and kegging Sunday night

 

[Noob_Brewer]

How do you know its almost at FG? Are you measuring it directly with a TILT or regular hydrometer or are you using visual signs to think its almost done? I've been raising the temps slightly to 70-72 after ferm is done for any cleanup of off flavors. Its worked for me so far. I think its also going to depend on yeast you are using too. As for dry hopping, you will get different opinions for sure on this which is a good thing. Lots dry hop a few points before FG, but lots don't. I haven't dry hopped prior to terminal myself.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

How many days do you guys ferment before dry hopping? I’m on day 5. It’s almost at fg. I was thinking about dry hopping today and kegging Sunday night

Although it's somewhat yeast dependent, when I'm dry hopping after fermentation I'll usually wait until day 8-9 and pull a sample and see if it seems to be at terminal gravity based on my recipe's estimate. I'll usually also do a VDK test. If it seems good to go on both counts I'll begin cold crashing for a day or two then dry hop.

When I'm trying to do my dry hop at the tail end of fermentation I go by when the blow-off starts slowing down, although that's very unscientific. Usually I end up dry hopping around 60-72 hours.

 

[SRJHops]

How many days do you guys ferment before dry hopping? I’m on day 5. It’s almost at fg. I was thinking about dry hopping today and kegging Sunday night

I have a Tilt so I don't have to open the carboy. I am currently doing a small (warm) dry hop at 1.030 (with a target FG of 1.020) - so with about .010 left. I am also feeling good about a large (cold - 58 degrees) dh 2 days before bottling.

So, I would go ahead and at least do a small dh charge at 5 days, because you are probably pretty close to FG. Then perhaps a larger dh when you keg.

 

[stickyfinger]

I finally completed a test of dry hopping process.

I did a split batch - both fermented in kegs. Half was dry hopped on day 3 of fermentation and then allowed to spund and put into the keezer. The other batch was soft crashed around day 10 or 11 to 60F and then left 2 days before receiving the exact same dry hop but at 60F. Kept it there 3 days and then moved it to the keezer.

The two beers are definitely different. The soft crashed version has more of a raw hop flavor, like more out of the bag, with more of a kind of dank flavor. It also has a bit more aroma, mostly of the more dank variety. I think I'm going to try doing an active fermentation dry hop in addition to a soft crash dry hop for the next batch and see what that does. I think I like the dry hop character of both beers and would like to get them both into there. It was also using citra-mosaic in one beer, so it's just one data point. The beers are definitely different though.

One other thing that interests me is doing a soft crash and then letting the beer warm up to 68-70 before doing the dry hop.

 

[SRJHops]

Whats your water profile for NEIPA? Sapwood Cellars seems to shoot for 150ppm CL: 100ppm SO4 (Janish book), my personal NEIPA on what I brewed last was targeting: Ca=100, Mg=18, Na=16, SO4=100, CL=200 (all in ppm units). I really liked this malty/viscous mouthfeel as it helps to come across as "juicy" to me. What are ya'll targeting? Seems to me that some here may prefer still higher SO4 to Chloride, or even (1:1) SO4 to Chloride ratios. Do you have a singular NEIPA profile or several depending on your sub-style of NEIPA? Does it make a difference if its a "regular" NEIPA or an oat cream (other half type) NEIPA?

I thought this post might do well in a different forum on water/beer science, but interested in water profiles ya'll been using specific to NEIPA style beers. Looking forward to some lively discussion lol.

The 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate ratio recommended by Janish and others just wasn't doing it for me, so my latest was 3:1 (Chloride 150, Sulfate 50). Mouthfeel is a lot softer, so getting there.

I think I will keep pushing and see what 4:1 does, with Chloride at 200 and Sulfate at 50. My guess is that might be too soft for my taste, though I heard a podcast recently (can't recall which one) where a commercial brewer was targeting 6:1! (I don't think that could be achieved without using RO water, which is not what I do.)

Of course, some people don't really care that much about the soft mouthfeel, which is fine. Nothing wrong with a juicy IPA with a more trad mouthfeel. I've certainly had some NEIPA's that were too soft and certainly too sweet...

 

[cheesebach]

I finally completed a test of dry hopping process.

I did a split batch - both fermented in kegs. Half was dry hopped on day 3 of fermentation and then allowed to spund and put into the keezer. The other batch was soft crashed around day 10 or 11 to 60F and then left 2 days before receiving the exact same dry hop but at 60F. Kept it there 3 days and then moved it to the keezer.

The two beers are definitely different. The soft crashed version has more of a raw hop flavor, like more out of the bag, with more of a kind of dank flavor. It also has a bit more aroma, mostly of the more dank variety. I think I'm going to try doing an active fermentation dry hop in addition to a soft crash dry hop for the next batch and see what that does. I think I like the dry hop character of both beers and would like to get them both into there. It was also using citra-mosaic in one beer, so it's just one data point. The beers are definitely different though.

One other thing that interests me is doing a soft crash and then letting the beer warm up to 68-70 before doing the dry hop.

Thanks for sharing! I did a very similar experiment around this time last year and my results sound very similar to yours. However, both beers were similar enough that it took some practice before I was able to tell them apart in a triangle test. For me, aroma was better in the soft crash post-fermentation beer, but I preferred the flavor of the active ferment dry hop beer. There was also a hint of hop burn in the active fermentation dry hop beer.

Since that experiment, the few NEIPAs I've made I have been using one active fermentation dry hop at around 48 hrs post pitch, and another after soft crash around 60F. Usually in a 1:2 ratio between active to post-ferm. This seems to be working well, giving stable haze and no hop burn that I can detect.

 

[wepeeler]

I'm not saying you can't have stable haze from active fermentation dry hopping. But you seemed to imply a possiblereason his beer dropped clear was that he didn't do that and crashed his yeast first, e.g. there was no yeast present during dry hopping. This should not be detrimental to haze

That's exactly what I'm implying. If you read the research, there is a correlation between fermentation dry hopping and haze stability (also shelf life). The reaction with the yeast creates the stable haze. Dropping the yeast first can lead to clearer beer. I'm not saying dry hopping during fermentation is the only way to create stable haze, but it's certainly a factor. I was just pointing out the differences in that guys two beers.

 

[wepeeler]

The 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate ratio recommended by Janish and others just wasn't doing it for me, so my latest was 3:1 (Chloride 150, Sulfate 50). Mouthfeel is a lot softer, so getting there.

I think I will keep pushing and see what 4:1 does, with Chloride at 200 and Sulfate at 50. My guess is that might be too soft for my taste, though I heard a podcast recently (can't recall which one) where a commercial brewer was targeting 6:1! (I don't think that could be achieved without using RO water, which is not what I do.)

Of course, some people don't really care that much about the soft mouthfeel, which is fine. Nothing wrong with a juicy IPA with a more trad mouthfeel. I've certainly had some NEIPA's that were too soft and certainly too sweet...

I too have gone to a 3:1 ratio. Basically around 280 ppm chloride and 90ish or so sulfate. It was much better than 2:1. I think a 3:1 with a decent amount of haze should be spot on for mouthfeel. I'll find out when I brew a new neipa recipe next week. Can't wait.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

That's exactly what I'm implying. If you read the research, there is a correlation between fermentation dry hopping and haze stability (also shelf life). The reaction with the yeast creates the stable haze. Dropping the yeast first can lead to clearer beer. I'm not saying dry hopping during fermentation is the only way to create stable haze, but it's certainly a factor. I was just pointing out the differences in that guys two beers.

Well I disagree with you then. Lots of highly regarded hazy makers dry hop after fermentation and crashing and have no trouble with stable haze. I myself have never had a heavily dry hopped after fermentation beer drop clear on me, except for the 2 times I massively overpitched onto full yeast cakes although even those didn't drop completely clear. The dry hopping technique wasn't the only difference between the 2 beers. He said a few posts later he shook carbed the clear one and wasn't sure what he did with the other one. It's also 2 different generations of yeasts.

Interesting anecdote. I actually went to Janish's brewery Sapwood Cellars recently and had some beers. He's the guy whose blog you quoted a few posts ago on early fermentation dry hopping/haze stability and I know they do it there because I've heard him say it in interviews. Their beer is really good, but one that threw me off a little bit was Pillowfort. It's one of their most popular hazy ones but the pint I got was pretty clear. Much clearer than the picture on their website. You can even see from the pictures on untappd the further back you scroll the hazier it gets. Interesting hmmm

https://untappd.com/b/sapwood-cellars-pillowfort/3000142/photos

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I too have gone to a 3:1 ratio. Basically around 280 ppm chloride and 90ish or so sulfate. It was much better than 2:1. I think a 3:1 with a decent amount of haze should be spot on for mouthfeel. I'll find out when I brew a new neipa recipe next week. Can't wait.

Very interesting and why I posed this question. Thank you @wepeeler and @SRJHops on posting both your ratios AND the actual ppms because I do think the ppms are more informative than ratios alone. After all a 3:1 ratio could mean 150ppm CL: 50ppm SO4 OR 270ppm CL: 90ppm SO4. I can always convert the ppms of each into a ratio but seeing the ratio alone could potentially be meaningless if both ppms are low. @wepeeler - in your experience/sensory testing, why was the 280/90 ratio better than 2:1? was your 2:1 the 200:100 Ive seem to understand as a "standard" for NEIPAs? My second brew was 200:100 and I did like it a lot from the hydro sample which was prior to dry hopping and it was definitely more viscous/malty/fuller bodied than my first brew where I blew it and forgot the mash salts all together! On that first brew I did remember the boil salts but according to beer smith, based on my "boil only" salt addition my water was: Ca=22.4, Mg=4.6, Na=26.0, SO4=37.1, CL= 39.1 and beer smith qualified this as a "balanced" water profile. So I have two beers with identical grain bills and 2/3 of the hops are also identical. My first beer is good though it is certainly very hoppy with more pronounced bitterness compared to the second brew from what I can tell. FWIW, I actually like detectable bitterness in my NEIPAs to balance out the "juiciness" so the beer isn't one dimensional.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Well I disagree with you then. Lots of highly regarded hazy makers dry hop after fermentation and crashing and have no trouble with stable haze. I myself have never had a heavily dry hopped after fermentation beer drop clear on me, except for the 2 times I massively overpitched onto full yeast cakes although even those didn't drop completely clear. The dry hopping technique wasn't the only difference between the 2 beers. He said a few posts later he shook carbed the clear one and wasn't sure what he did with the other one. It's also 2 different generations of yeasts.

Interesting anecdote. I actually went to Janish's brewery Sapwood Cellars recently and had some beers. He's the guy whose blog you quoted a few posts ago on early fermentation dry hopping/haze stability and I know they do it there because I've heard him say it in interviews. Their beer is really good, but one that threw me off a little bit was Pillowfort. It's one of their most popular hazy ones but the pint I got was pretty clear. Much clearer than the picture on their website. You can even see from the pictures on untappd the further back you scroll the hazier it gets. Interesting hmmm

https://untappd.com/b/sapwood-cellars-pillowfort/3000142/photos

I haven't had pillowfort or any sapwood cellars beers yet, but after looking at the untapped link and comparing new vs old pictures myself, I can only speculate that perhaps Janish subscribed to the "Make IPA Clear Again" thread here on HBT after his first batch was released lol

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks for sharing! I did a very similar experiment around this time last year and my results sound very similar to yours. However, both beers were similar enough that it took some practice before I was able to tell them apart in a triangle test. For me, aroma was better in the soft crash post-fermentation beer, but I preferred the flavor of the active ferment dry hop beer. There was also a hint of hop burn in the active fermentation dry hop beer.

Since that experiment, the few NEIPAs I've made I have been using one active fermentation dry hop at around 48 hrs post pitch, and another after soft crash around 60F. Usually in a 1:2 ratio between active to post-ferm. This seems to be working well, giving stable haze and no hop burn that I can detect.

i was thinking of doing the exact same thing, 1/3 of hops during fermentation and 2/3 after soft crash. cool.

 

[wepeeler]

Well I disagree with you then. Lots of highly regarded hazy makers dry hop after fermentation and crashing and have no trouble with stable haze. I myself have never had a heavily dry hopped after fermentation beer drop clear on me, except for the 2 times I massively overpitched onto full yeast cakes although even those didn't drop completely clear. The dry hopping technique wasn't the only difference between the 2 beers. He said a few posts later he shook carbed the clear one and wasn't sure what he did with the other one. It's also 2 different generations of yeasts.

Interesting anecdote. I actually went to Janish's brewery Sapwood Cellars recently and had some beers. He's the guy whose blog you quoted a few posts ago on early fermentation dry hopping/haze stability and I know they do it there because I've heard him say it in interviews. Their beer is really good, but one that threw me off a little bit was Pillowfort. It's one of their most popular hazy ones but the pint I got was pretty clear. Much clearer than the picture on their website. You can even see from the pictures on untappd the further back you scroll the hazier it gets. Interesting hmmm

https://untappd.com/b/sapwood-cellars-pillowfort/3000142/photos

I'm not sure why you disagree that dry hopping during fermentation is a factor of creating stable haze and shelf life. I've provided evidence and scientific findings on exactly that. I've read Scott Janish's book as well, which he wrote after reading 1000's of research papers. I also stated that it's not the only factor in adding haze. Just as there are many variables that can drop a beer clear ie temps, length of conditioning, yeast, hops, dry hops, malt etc. You get the idea. Dry hopping during active fermentation is not the only way to create stable haze, but it's certainly a factor. I'm glad you got to try Sapwood Cellars beer. The only way to find out why Pillowfort is dropping clear is to ask Scott. Commercial craft brewers constantly tweak their beers, with varying results. Maybe you had a pint from the bottom of the keg (which is clearer than when first tapped)? Maybe he tweaked it to not be hazy? I have no information on that beer or his process for that beer.

I was only trying to point out a difference I saw in that poster's beer. The largest difference was that he DH during fermentation in the first beer and soft crashed the second before DH. He did use a second generation yeast, which could make a difference, but that would mean the yeast evolved somewhat. Or his pitch rate was different. Or perhaps even his temps were off a little. I'm not claiming to know it all about haze creation/stability. Only trying to relay what I've been researching myself for the past 3 1/2 years! I'm not shooting in the dark here, I've provided research! (And from my on personal brewing experiences.)

Very interesting and why I posed this question. Thank you @wepeeler and @SRJHops on posting both your ratios AND the actual ppms because I do think the ppms are more informative than ratios alone. After all a 3:1 ratio could mean 150ppm CL: 50ppm SO4 OR 270ppm CL: 90ppm SO4. I can always convert the ppms of each into a ratio but seeing the ratio alone could potentially be meaningless if both ppms are low. @wepeeler - in your experience/sensory testing, why was the 280/90 ratio better than 2:1? was your 2:1 the 200:100 Ive seem to understand as a "standard" for NEIPAs? My second brew was 200:100 and I did like it a lot from the hydro sample which was prior to dry hopping and it was definitely more viscous/malty/fuller bodied than my first brew where I blew it and forgot the mash salts all together! On that first brew I did remember the boil salts but according to beer smith, based on my "boil only" salt addition my water was: Ca=22.4, Mg=4.6, Na=26.0, SO4=37.1, CL= 39.1 and beer smith qualified this as a "balanced" water profile. So I have two beers with identical grain bills and 2/3 of the hops are also identical. My first beer is good though it is certainly very hoppy with more pronounced bitterness compared to the second brew from what I can tell. FWIW, I actually like detectable bitterness in my NEIPAs to balance out the "juiciness" so the beer isn't one dimensional.

I find the 3:1 ratio (and 280ppm:90ish ppm) gives a fuller mouthfeel. For a super hoppy neipa, I find adding more cl actually accentuates the malt character, but adds body. Or at least it did in my beer. I upped the IBUs as well, so I was hoping for a softer bitterness. Seemed to work. I also find a longer, cooler whirlpool adds to mouthfeel. Of course, YMMV.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I'm not sure why you disagree that dry hopping during fermentation is a factor of creating stable haze and shelf life. I've provided evidence and scientific findings on exactly that.

We're going in circles so we might as well stop, in fact this is my last point on the topic but to try one more time to make my point clear, I disagree that not doing it will have a negative effect on haze stability. Lots of hazy beers are produced without a fermentation dry hop. And it's pretty clear from the pictures that his beer dropped clear. All the descriptions of it and picture on their website promote a hazy juicy beer. Research papers are great, but also is real life data/results.

 

[danszabrew]

Not sure if this has been covered in here but what types of fermenters are you guys using?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I'm not sure why you disagree that dry hopping during fermentation is a factor of creating stable haze and shelf life. I've provided evidence and scientific findings on exactly that. I've read Scott Janish's book as well, which he wrote after reading 1000's of research papers. I also stated that it's not the only factor in adding haze. Just as there are many variables that can drop a beer clear ie temps, length of conditioning, yeast, hops, dry hops, malt etc. You get the idea. Dry hopping during active fermentation is not the only way to create stable haze, but it's certainly a factor. I'm glad you got to try Sapwood Cellars beer. The only way to find out why Pillowfort is dropping clear is to ask Scott. Commercial craft brewers constantly tweak their beers, with varying results. Maybe you had a pint from the bottom of the keg (which is clearer than when first tapped)? Maybe he tweaked it to not be hazy? I have no information on that beer or his process for that beer.

I was only trying to point out a difference I saw in that poster's beer. The largest difference was that he DH during fermentation in the first beer and soft crashed the second before DH. He did use a second generation yeast, which could make a difference, but that would mean the yeast evolved somewhat. Or his pitch rate was different. Or perhaps even his temps were off a little. I'm not claiming to know it all about haze creation/stability. Only trying to relay what I've been researching myself for the past 3 1/2 years! I'm not shooting in the dark here, I've provided research! (And from my on personal brewing experiences.)



I find the 3:1 ratio (and 280ppm:90ish ppm) gives a fuller mouthfeel. For a super hoppy neipa, I find adding more cl actually accentuates the malt character, but adds body. Or at least it did in my beer. I upped the IBUs as well, so I was hoping for a softer bitterness. Seemed to work. I also find a longer, cooler whirlpool adds to mouthfeel. Of course, YMMV.

Totally agree with the higher CL brings out the maltiness which I really like but also don't want to drown out the hop flavors and bitterness but I see you are upping the IBUs to compensate. Makes total sense to me. I love the juicy soft mouthfeel NEIPA but I appreciate those juicy characteristics more when they are contrasted with some smooth bitterness in the background. I liken it to sweet and sour, need a bit of the contrast for overall balance and a more complete beer experience IMO. That was eye opening for me when I finally got the chance to try treehouse for the first time in august 2018. The beers all had a great soft pillowy mouthfeel and were definitely juicy, but all their core beers had a pronounced smooth bitterness in the background which I loved. Then I looked up some of their beers, I think doppelgänger has an IBU close to 90 but you'd never know if when drinking it. Loved that beer as well as SAP more than (gulp)....julius! lol

 

[yungguanyu]

what's the current thinking on late dry hopping and avoiding hop creep?

I've been bitten by diacetyl pretty bad before and since then i've only been doing a big single dry hop during fermentation. I'm keen to try some post fermentation dry hopping again (i can purge my vessel before i dry hop, so not a fully closed dry hop, but not the worst).

Are people doing a soft crash, or dry hopping warm to try and clean it any issues up, not worrying about it... or something else?

 

[stickyfinger]

what's the current thinking on late dry hopping and avoiding hop creep?

I've been bitten by diacetyl pretty bad before and since then i've only been doing a big single dry hop during fermentation. I'm keen to try some post fermentation dry hopping again (i can purge my vessel before i dry hop, so not a fully closed dry hop, but not the worst).

Are people doing a soft crash, or dry hopping warm to try and clean it any issues up, not worrying about it... or something else?

I had some very serious diacetyl problems in the past. The remedy for me was to avoid oxygen ingress between the warm fermentation temps and the cold kegging temps. So, if you are soft or cold crashing, avoid any oxygen ingress during that process. I started using rubber bands and wire to hold my carboy bungs on really tight, and I haven't had any diacetyl since. Of course, switching to keg fermentation completely eliminates the problem as well.

I've tested beers before dry hopping that had zero diacetyl precursors that i could detect that had a ton after dry hopping. If you add dry hops to a beer, you are going to have precursors if you dry hop warm at least. But, you will be fine if you avoid oxygen exposure, in my experience.

 

[beervoid]

Am I the only one here that detects a saltyness if going above 200ppm of chloride?

 

[Dgallo]

Am I the only one here that detects a saltyness if going above 200ppm of chloride?

I believe if your calcium levels are also high that the combination will get a definitive salt character

 

[beervoid]

I believe if your calcium levels are also high that the combination will get a definitive salt character

Aware and I stay below 60 ca usually never higher then 80.
I also use british malts mainly which are higher in chloride then north usa malts.

 

[SRJHops]

I had some very serious diacetyl problems in the past. The remedy for me was to avoid oxygen ingress between the warm fermentation temps and the cold kegging temps. So, if you are soft or cold crashing, avoid any oxygen ingress during that process. I started using rubber bands and wire to hold my carboy bungs on really tight, and I haven't had any diacetyl since. Of course, switching to keg fermentation completely eliminates the problem as well.

I've tested beers before dry hopping that had zero diacetyl precursors that i could detect that had a ton after dry hopping. If you add dry hops to a beer, you are going to have precursors if you dry hop warm at least. But, you will be fine if you avoid oxygen exposure, in my experience.

If it works for you, then of course keep it going. And oxygen is the enemy of this style, for sure. But I don't think oxygen is the main culprit behind diacetyl. More likely, the beer wasn't given enough time to clean up after itself. The recommendation is to raise the temp a bit after fermentation and give it at least a few more days, if not another week, to clean up diacetyl and other off flavors.

I always raise my eyebrow a bit when people post something like, "I went grain to glass in 7 days." If that works for them, then great, no worries. Personally, I keep my beer at fermentation temps for about 9 days, raising the temp at the end. Then soft crash for another 5 days, for a total of 14 days in the carboy. The waiting IS the hardest part, but it comes with the hobby, right?

 

[beervoid]

If it works for you, then of course keep it going. And oxygen is the enemy of this style, for sure. But I don't think oxygen is the main culprit behind diacetyl. More likely, the beer wasn't given enough time to clean up after itself. The recommendation is to raise the temp a bit after fermentation and give it at least a few more days, if not another week, to clean up diacetyl and other off flavors.

I always raise my eyebrow a bit when people post something like, "I went grain to glass in 7 days." If that works for them, then great, no worries. Personally, I keep my beer at fermentation temps for about 9 days, raising the temp at the end. Then soft crash for another 5 days, for a total of 14 days in the carboy. The waiting IS the hardest part, but it comes with the hobby, right?

Yeast in the beer after fermentation has ended can be kickstarted if you introduce oxygen thus creating diacetyl.

 

[jturman35]

I have slowly creeped up to 160ppm range with chloride and kept the sulfate around 80ppm. How do you guys get up to 200ppm chloride without getting the calcium over 120ppm? I always build up from distilled.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I have slowly creeped up to 160ppm range with chloride and kept the sulfate around 80ppm. How do you guys get up to 200ppm chloride without getting the calcium over 120ppm? I always build up from distilled.

I work from my tap water but got a ward labs water report, so when I put targets of Ca=100, Cl=200, SO4=100, beer smith matches it as close as it can. I end up with: Cl=199, SO4=99.4, Ca=110, so a little over my Ca target

 

[SRJHops]

Yeast in the beer after fermentation has ended can be kickstarted if you introduce oxygen thus creating diacetyl.

Makes sense. All the more reason to dh cold, I would think. Of course, if you introduce too much oxygen you are gonna be in trouble anyway..

 

[Dgallo]

I have slowly creeped up to 160ppm range with chloride and kept the sulfate around 80ppm. How do you guys get up to 200ppm chloride without getting the calcium over 120ppm? I always build up from distilled.

Canning salt will add chloride without uping calcium but it ups you Na. My na is usually 60-80 and it’s undetectable but I’d be wary of going over 100 in anything other than a gose or stout

 

[DrGMG]

FYI, big breweries usually use Tanal-A to stabilize haze.

 

[TBryerton]

I get what you're saying. I know it sounds backwards, but stable haze can be created by dry hopping during fermentation. The yeast helps bind the available proteins with extracted polyphenols, creating a permanent, stable haze.

Here's an excerpt from an article by Scott Janish:

Early Dry Hopping (http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/)
A common practice when brewing NEIPAs is to dry hop early into fermentation (sometimes as early as brew day) to encourage a process called bioflavoring, which is essentially the interaction between the active fermenting yeast and hop compounds. I’ll sidestep the research on bioflavoring for now, but this early dry hopping may be important as it relates to the protein/polyphenol reaction leading to haze. A study that looked at how the protein content in beer changes during active fermentation examined two different strains (WLP001 and KVL011). They found that with both strains, the protein content decreased during fermentation. Likely either degraded proteolytically by yeast or precipitating out with the yeast slurry. Specifically, WLP001 had a decrease of 16% and KVL001 decreased 42%.6

I wonder then if dry hopping early into fermentation is creating a situation where brewers are exposing the extracted polyphenols from the hops to a higher amount of available active proteins in the wort, essentially increasing this polyphenol and protein environment leading permanent haze. It’s also interesting to think that as the experiment above showed, different strains may be leaving more proteins in the finished beer than others. I’m curious if the same study was done with the common NEIPA strains if fewer proteins would be degraded during fermentation by the yeast, which would enhance this protein/polyphenol theory. I wonder too if more proteins are left in the finished beer if this would also play a role in the full mouthfeel of the style. As a side note, I don’t think the mouthfeel is the result purely of dextrins, which I concluded in a recent article.

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

 

[SRJHops]

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

Agreed. I think it's pretty clear that biotransformation can happen, but a lot less clear whether it's a good thing -- if the flavor just gets stripped away when the yeast flocs..

Here's some good reading on the topic, with some evidence for and some against: https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blo...-understanding-hop-compound-biotransformation

 

[isomerization]

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

With a low temp whirlpool, you have all the chemical matter needed for biotransformation. Why this isn’t discussed or studied more is beyond me.

Canning salt will add chloride without uping calcium but it ups you Na. My na is usually 60-80 and it’s undetectable but I’d be wary of going over 100 in anything other than a gose or stout

Plus you get the mouthfeel boost from the Na to boot!

 

[marchuk96]

I do not do a bio dry hop...tried a couple times and just really didn't get much impact and kinda just felt like it just got lost in the mix and was just a waste...I just do a double dry hop a few days before kegging but after ferment is done...but I've always thought and wondered...aren't we all getting some kinda bio transformation with either large additions late in boil or flameout or with whirlpool additions? As @isomerization stated there def is an abundace of hop compound at the start of ferment so one would think since they are present at the start...they must go threw some form of biotransformation once we start fermenting right? And if we assume thats true..then if you do add another dose early on in ferment does the yeast then bio transform compounds again and is that even possible for yeast to do if we assume its already done it once?

 

[Erikgn]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

Do NOT transfer to a secondary EVER!
Just dryhop in the primary and only cold crash if you have a means to eliminate oxygen pick up. Also you only need to crash for 24-48 hours.

When it comes to dryhoping times, I only dryhop from 4-2 days prior to cold crashing, never longer than that