New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[SRJHops]

How about a switch to Azacca, Mosaic, and Mandarina Bavaria? Anyone?

Try some Bravo. Just read up on it in a Brulosophy exbeeriment and they got a ton of orange. Also, the new Scott Janish article lists it as a good hop for both hot and cold side.

 

[craftbrewguru]

woah!! the flour is interesting. alot of their insta posts say vermont ale yeast so conan. some do and don't. they hint at a lot of stuff tho!

 

[Loud Brewing]

woah!! the flour is interesting. alot of their insta posts say vermont ale yeast so conan. some do and don't. they hint at a lot of stuff tho!

Yes very interesting indeed. I know that flour is generally looked down on by the community here and I have never used it personally, but I could see how they contribute to the opacity of his beers. During a can release last month, we all commented on the hazy (not NEIPA imo) fights we ordered and about how they all had an almost identical appearance. Very straw yellow with ZERO transparency, a true mango/pineapple juice look to them, perhaps the flour is how they achieve this extra protein in suspension.
Question is, is this cheating? lol

 

[Loud Brewing]

Anyone else read the Scott Janish article in the new Brew Your Own mag? It's kind of a preview of his new NEIPA book. Got my head spinning - and right before I was headed out to my LHBS to get ingredients!

His recipe is based on latest science... No flaked adjuncts; dial down the wheat; fwh and kettle hop; two 10 min hopstands at 200 and 185. Don't over dry hop. Great stuff and kind of challenges some of the norms...

Nothing flaked? I googled but couldn't find the article you mentioned. Link by chance?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Looks like the recipe says to add flour during the mash. I would think that it would get broken down and converted to sugar in the mash like any other starch and not contribute to the haze. Just a starch adjunct at that point (not saying they're all the same). I think what's frowned upon is adding flour any time after the wort reaches boiling and can't be converted any more.

 

[SRJHops]

Nothing flaked? I googled but couldn't find the article you mentioned. Link by chance?

Here's the link, but it's subscriber-only: https://byo.com/writer/scott-janish/
I bet your LHBS has the magazine - it's hot off the press.

It's a pretty technical article (and includes his recipe), but from what I understand, between the grain bill (with some, but not too much, malted wheat) and the massive amount of hops, you don't need the adjuncts to create a flavorful beer (that's also hazy as a result).

I am curious about the mouthfeel, though -- I am pretty sure that at least the flaked oats help create the signature softness. But perhaps it's more from the high ratio of Chloride to sulfate in the water?

I read the article right before I was about to head out to the brew store to get my supplies, and I was too chicken to drop my 20% flaked adjuncts. But I did remove the flaked wheat (but kept flaked barley and oats), and dialed down the malted wheat and added malted oats.

I also like that he includes a lot of suggestions for which hops work best on the hot and cold sides, and he recommends two 10 minute hop stands at 200 and 185 - which I did this time. Lots of other interesting stuff too. His book should be coming out soon and I'll for sure be purchasing it.

 

[MildAvers]

Maybe the 12% protein content of the flour contributes to the haze? If the other 88% is starch then the question is how much of that is converted during the mash and how much of the protein drops out of solution?

If I'm not mistaken some monastery (Belgian) ales use wheat starch as an ingredient though I haven't observed if they're hazy as they're usually dark colored. I'm sure one could use many different types of grain starch, corn starch, wheat starch, rice starch, etc... but w/o the protein content I'm not so sure it would contribute to the haze. Further the use of raw starches is probably done as a cost saving measure above all else.

 

[isomerization]

It's totally unfermentable.

1lb of Lactose adds ~8 points of unfermentable gravity to 5 gal.

1lb of corn sugar/dextrose adds ~9 of 100% fermentable gravity to 5 gal.

The point of using both is to synergistically increase ABV and mouthfeel. If you just used the sugar, you’d get the ABV boost, but risk thin/dry finish. If you just used the Lactose, you wouldn’t get the ABV boost. At least this makes sense in my head haha.

 

[murphyslaw]

Here's the link, but it's subscriber-only: https://byo.com/writer/scott-janish/
I bet your LHBS has the magazine - it's hot off the press.

It's a pretty technical article (and includes his recipe), but from what I understand, between the grain bill (with some, but not too much, malted wheat) and the massive amount of hops, you don't need the adjuncts to create a flavorful beer (that's also hazy as a result).

I am curious about the mouthfeel, though -- I am pretty sure that at least the flaked oats help create the signature softness. But perhaps it's more from the high ratio of Chloride to sulfate in the water?

I read the article right before I was about to head out to the brew store to get my supplies, and I was too chicken to drop my 20% flaked adjuncts. But I did remove the flaked wheat (but kept flaked barley and oats), and dialed down the malted wheat and added malted oats.

I also like that he includes a lot of suggestions for which hops work best on the hot and cold sides, and he recommends two 10 minute hop stands at 200 and 185 - which I did this time. Lots of other interesting stuff too. His book should be coming out soon and I'll for sure be purchasing it.

I cant see his latest article, does he use oats that arent flaked?

I started increasing my use of oats after reading this: http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Seems like he used raw oats, but in the comments i think he says flaked oats should have the same effect.

 

[SRJHops]

I cant see his latest article, does he use oats that arent flaked?

I started increasing my use of oats after reading this: http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Seems like he used raw oats, but in the comments i think he says flaked oats should have the same effect.

Yes, he uses malted oats. Base malt is a brand of pale malt (Great Western Full Pint Malt) that I haven't heard of, but I have to believe that 2-row and/or Golden Promise or Pilsner are still fine. He also has white wheat malt and something called chit malt, which appears to be similar to carapils.

Somebody posted the article to this thread yesterday, but I can't seem to find it now...

 

[exit8]

Yes, he uses malted oats. Base malt is a brand of pale malt (Great Western Full Pint Malt) that I haven't heard of, but I have to believe that 2-row and/or Golden Promise or Pilsner are still fine. He also has white wheat malt and something called chit malt, which appears to be similar to carapils.

Somebody posted the article to this thread yesterday, but I can't seem to find it now...

The description of Full Pint Malt. 2-2.4L so a little darker than normal two row but sounds nice.

"It is a spring 2-row barley, and has been described by the Sierra Nevada Brewing Companies sensory panel as “very fermentable and having a very nice extract….Full Pint wort also tasted very good, pre and post boiled….a very pleasant and strong fresh salted popcorn note. A very positive clean sweetness as well, with no harshness or astringency…the fermented Full Pint beer was clean, slightly estery, a bit tart and bready.”

 

[tld6008]

I cant see his latest article, does he use oats that arent flaked?

I started increasing my use of oats after reading this: http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Seems like he used raw oats, but in the comments i think he says flaked oats should have the same effect.

He said this:
"Malted oats should have the same effect as flaked".
He also mentioned that you don't need to do a separate cereal mash with the raw due to the Starch gelatinization range (135-163f) but the Beersmith Cereal Mash link cited a 127-138f range. That's a big difference I wonder which is correct?

 

[SRJHops]

He said this:
"Malted oats should have the same effect as flaked".
He also mentioned that you don't need to do a separate cereal mash with the raw due to the Starch gelatinization range (135-163f) but the Beersmith Cereal Mash link cited a 127-138f range. That's a big difference I wonder which is correct?

I am curious what makes it "raw?" Is that opposed to flaked? It's just malted oats, I thought. That's what I got at my LHBS on Sat. They don't look that different from other grains...

Also (please be nice), could you explain what you mean by a separate cereal mash? If I recall, you were telling me that carapils doesn't need to be mashed, but I never figured out what I was supposed to do with it then (ha ha ha throw it away). Same for the oats... The only other way I know how to use malt is to steep it (back when I was doing extracts). Is there some advanced step for some grains that does not include mashing?

 

[ba-brewer]

If you steep carapils or crystal/roasted gains you get only the sugars that were are already converted. If you add them to the mash with base malt some of already converted sugars can be further broken down and any starches still present can be converted too.

Cereal mash is for raw unmalted grain, basically boiling the raw grain with some base malt. Once boiled for a while it is added into the mash so the base malt can convert the starches.

edit: I know I am over simplifying a cereal, there is a bit more too it.

Using flaked gain is much easier just toss into the mash. Flaked grains is suppose to have a shorter shelf life so if your LHBS does not have a good turn over on them using raw grain and cereal mash might be worth the extra effort.

 

[doogie]

Cereal mash is for raw unmalted grain, basically boiling the raw grain with some base malt. Once boiled for a while it is added into the mash so the base malt can convert the starches.

I just read where you only need to perform a cereal mash if you are using corn or rice which both have gelatinization temperatures higher than normal mash temperatures.

Gelatinization temperatures of standard adjuncts
Barley 140-150° F (60-65° C) Wheat 136-147° F (58-64° C) Rye 135-158° F (57-70° C) Oats 127-138° F (53-59° C) Corn (Maize) 143-165°F (62-74° C) Rice 154-172° F (68-78° C)

 

[SRJHops]

If you steep carapils or crystal/roasted gains you get only the sugars that were are already converted. If you add them to the mash with base malt some of already converted sugars can be further broken down and any starches still present can be converted too.

Cereal mash is for raw unmalted grain, basically boiling the raw grain with some base malt. Once boiled for a while it is added into the mash so the base malt can convert the starches.

edit: I know I am over simplifying a cereal, there is a bit more too it.

Using flaked gain is much easier just toss into the mash. Flaked grains is suppose to have a shorter shelf life so if your LHBS does not have a good turn over on them using raw grain and cereal mash might be worth the extra effort.

Ah, I think I get it - thanks! There IS a step if for some reason you want to use raw, unmalted grains. Other than what you stated, I'm having a hard time figuring out why someone would use them -- and I don't know where I'd get them. (Maybe a few miles down the road at Rahr?) Unless they are hiding in plain sight at Northern Brewer (my LHBS), I don't recall ever seeing them...

Anyway, unless and until I learn differently, it all goes in the mash, carapils included!

 

[cheesebach]

Anyway, unless and until I learn differently, it all goes in the mash, carapils included!

I'm not sure how the carapils comment you're referring to was worded, but I assume what was meant is that carapils does not need to be mashed like a base malt (or other starchy adjuncts like flaked oats) would. It is more similar to a crystal or specialty malt which can have their sugars extracted simply by steeping in hot water. The difference being that malts requiring a mash have starches that must be converted by enzymes provided by base malts in a proper mash, while crystal/specialty malts have had most of their starch converted to sugars in the malting process and can be steeped in hot water with or without the presence of enzymes. So it is fine to mash carapils, and it is also fine to "steep" it on its own. For your flaked oats/wheat/barley, those can be mashed but not "steeped". Hope this helps clear up the confusion.

This is also stated in the Carapils info sheet:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CarapilsMalt.pdf

 

[SRJHops]

I'm not sure how the carapils comment you're referring to was worded, but I assume what was meant is that carapils does not need to be mashed like a base malt (or other starchy adjuncts like flaked oats) would. It is more similar to a crystal or specialty malt which can have their sugars extracted simply by steeping in hot water. The difference being that malts requiring a mash have starches that must be converted by enzymes provided by base malts in a proper mash, while crystal/specialty malts have had most of their starch converted to sugars in the malting process and can be steeped in hot water with or without the presence of enzymes. So it is fine to mash carapils, and it is also fine to "steep" it on its own. For your flaked oats/wheat/barley, those can be mashed but not "steeped". Hope this helps clear up the confusion.

This is also stated in the Carapils info sheet:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CarapilsMalt.pdf

He said something similar, that it doesn't need to be mashed...

But is there a practical application for all-grain brewing? In what case/why would I ever steep it instead of tossing it in with the mash grains? I am guessing, perhaps, I would only steep it if I was doing an extract or partial mash, right?

 

[tld6008]

I am curious what makes it "raw?" Is that opposed to flaked? It's just malted oats, I thought. That's what I got at my LHBS on Sat. They don't look that different from other grains...

Also (please be nice), could you explain what you mean by a separate cereal mash? If I recall, you were telling me that carapils doesn't need to be mashed, but I never figured out what I was supposed to do with it then (ha ha ha throw it away). Same for the oats... The only other way I know how to use malt is to steep it (back when I was doing extracts). Is there some advanced step for some grains that does not include mashing?

Raw meaning not altered. As to where to get them, he stated that Steel Cut Oats, available in grocery store are raw.
I bought some once instead of oatmeal and it takes 30 min or so to cook them,way too long for me waiting on breakfast.
Anyway the raw oats need to be milled, crushed or somehow ground fairly well before you mash them, he also mentioned oat flour would work.
I basically was questioning the two different temperatures to do that. Scott Janish indicated you could do it in a normal mash temp range whereas the Beersmith article on Cereal Mashing stated a much lower temp. so it would be done prior to your normal grain mash.
Regarding the mashing of Carapils, I was not the person who offered that opinion.

 

[SRJHops]

Raw meaning not altered. As to where to get them, he stated that Steel Cut Oats, available in grocery store are raw.
I bought some once instead of oatmeal and it takes 30 min or so to cook them,way too long for me waiting on breakfast.
Anyway the raw oats need to be milled, crushed or somehow ground fairly well before you mash them, he also mentioned oat flour would work.
I basically was questioning the two different temperatures to do that. Scott Janish indicated you could do it in a normal mash temp range whereas the Beersmith article on Cereal Mashing stated a much lower temp. so it would be done prior to your normal grain mash.
Regarding the mashing of Carapils, I was not the person who offered that opinion.

That makes sense. I don't think he is suggesting raw oats -- the recipe says malted oats. They don't seem very common, but they have them at my LHBS. I'm lucky that it's a pretty good one, I guess.

Regarding the flaked oats, it always seems weird to get them at the LHBS - they look exactly the same as my breakfast oatmeal oats! I did use my breakfast oats once - not sure which was cheaper...

Sorry for the mix up on the carapils... Should have gone back and looked at the thread.

 

[tld6008]

That makes sense. I don't think he is suggesting raw oats -- the recipe says malted oats. They don't seem very common, but they have them at my LHBS. I'm lucky that it's a pretty good one, I guess.

Regarding the flaked oats, it always seems weird to get them at the LHBS - they look exactly the same as my breakfast oatmeal oats! I did use my breakfast oats once - not sure which was cheaper...

Sorry for the mix up on the carapils... Should have gone back and looked at the thread.

I always use Old Fashion Quaker or the Walmart brand when a recipe calls for flaked oats

 

[isomerization]

That makes sense. I don't think he is suggesting raw oats -- the recipe says malted oats. They don't seem very common, but they have them at my LHBS. I'm lucky that it's a pretty good one, I guess.

Regarding the flaked oats, it always seems weird to get them at the LHBS - they look exactly the same as my breakfast oatmeal oats! I did use my breakfast oats once - not sure which was cheaper...

Sorry for the mix up on the carapils... Should have gone back and looked at the thread.

Aldi has rolled oats for under $1/lb, looks identical (haven’t noticed any flavor issues either).

 

[Joe Homebrewer]

Aldi has rolled oats for under $1/lb, looks identical (haven’t noticed any flavor issues either).

 

[SRJHops]

A38 Imperial Juice question... The is my first time using both liquid yeast and Juice. All of my previous NEIPA's used Safale-04, and it worked FAST --- active fermentation was pretty much over in 3 days. I'm 5 days in with Juice and it's still bubbling away. Normal?

I did not make a starter bc the LHBS guy said I didn't need one if my OG was 1.060 or under (it was exactly 1.060). Was it a mistake not to make a starter?

 

[MildAvers]

A38 Imperial Juice question... The is my first time using both liquid yeast and Juice. All of my previous NEIPA's used Safale-04, and it worked FAST --- active fermentation was pretty much over in 3 days. I'm 5 days in with Juice and it's still bubbling away. Normal?

I did not make a starter bc the LHBS guy said I didn't need one if my OG was 1.060 or under (it was exactly 1.060). Was it a mistake not to make a starter?

Normal for that strain but don't go by airlock bubbling, go by gravity reading.

When I make a NEIPA, I watch the Tilt reading and by day 3 it's usually ready to keg with a spunding valve, dry hops and clear beer system. Ready to drink on day 8-10.

Is it a mistake to not pitch adequate yeast? Yes.

Will you still make beer? Yes, but it may not be "ideal" in some way, shape or form... longer fermentation, lag (slower start), more (or less) esters/phenolics, etc...

 

[tld6008]

A38 Imperial Juice question... The is my first time using both liquid yeast and Juice. All of my previous NEIPA's used Safale-04, and it worked FAST --- active fermentation was pretty much over in 3 days. I'm 5 days in with Juice and it's still bubbling away. Normal?

I did not make a starter bc the LHBS guy said I didn't need one if my OG was 1.060 or under (it was exactly 1.060). Was it a mistake not to make a starter?

Rule # 9: Always Make A Starter when using liquid yeast. What if there were no signs of fermentation, what would you then do? I have received liquid yeast that was in date and never came to life. I won't take that chance again.

 

[ba-brewer]

rule 9b: Have dry yeast in the fridge

 

[pittbrewing]

A38 Imperial Juice question... The is my first time using both liquid yeast and Juice. All of my previous NEIPA's used Safale-04, and it worked FAST --- active fermentation was pretty much over in 3 days. I'm 5 days in with Juice and it's still bubbling away. Normal?

I did not make a starter bc the LHBS guy said I didn't need one if my OG was 1.060 or under (it was exactly 1.060). Was it a mistake not to make a starter?

I used it the other week. My OG was lower (1.045) but it ripped through and stopped bubbling 2 days after pitching. That being said, the krausen stuck around til day 6 i think, and when i transferred it on day 7 to the keg, there was still a thin, patchy layer. Overall really impressed with this yeast. I undershot my og, so I was worried about the ABV but it attentuated well and went down to about 1.008. Doing another brew tomorrow with some harvested yeast and (hopefully) a higher og.

By the way, per Imperial's directions, you can pitch one of their packages into wort upto 1.070 without a starter I believe.

 

[Loud Brewing]

I believe the Giga brand VIPA/conan also says up to 1.070 without a starter. It has worked very well for me pitching comando, but seems to lag a bit after some initial airlock activity, then the krausen takes off.

200 BILLION CELLS! LOL

 

[isomerization]

My experience with 1318 (said to be same as A38), is that it has a longer lag phase than other strains. Could be with the low pitch that active ferm didn’t start until 48 hr post pitch and will likely be sluggish (if actually underpitched).

 

[Loud Brewing]

This is my attempt at the braufessors most recent recipe. Turned out well ballanced and quite delicious. I like the 6oz whirlpool and the 6oz dh, makes it easy and good ballance between the 3 hop varieties at the 3-2-1 ratio.

 

[Genuine]

Here's my twist on an Amber version with 2oz each Amarillo, Mosiac, Citra and then 1oz Centennial in 170 degree whirlpool for 30 min. . Dry hopped on day 2 and day 7 with 1oz each of Amarillo, Mosiac and Citra for a total of 6oz in the dry hop. Used S-04, really happy with it.

 

[leesmith]

A38 Imperial Juice question... The is my first time using both liquid yeast and Juice. All of my previous NEIPA's used Safale-04, and it worked FAST --- active fermentation was pretty much over in 3 days. I'm 5 days in with Juice and it's still bubbling away. Normal?

I did not make a starter bc the LHBS guy said I didn't need one if my OG was 1.060 or under (it was exactly 1.060). Was it a mistake not to make a starter?

At the very least make a brew day quick starter.
Before doing anything on brew day...take the yeast to sit out a room temp.
Draw 800ml of wort off during the mash....cool it to room temp....and then pitch the yeast into it. Then put it on a stir plate; I'll just run the stir plate every now and then to agitate the yeast.
Once, I'm done with brew day....It's usually about 4 hours later and the small starter is getting a krausen or at least showing signs of life....then I pitch it into the wort.

 

[RTE]

I just saw a video on treehousenates Instagram of regular rolled oats going into a grain bill. I need to try using those.

 

[ba-brewer]

I believe the Giga brand VIPA/conan also says up to 1.070 without a starter. It has worked very well for me pitching comando, but seems to lag a bit after some initial airlock activity, then the krausen takes off.

200 BILLION CELLS! LOL

The number of cells advertised by the vendors is what they estimate when fresh, who know how a pouch is handled and stored and what you actually have in your hands.

I have to admit I have pitched smack pack without a starter when I first started brewing, but don't think I would do it again. Most started and made acceptable beer, but I once did two smack packs of mid storage shelf life and had to pitch some dry yeast to save that batch.

 

[isomerization]

At the very least make a brew day quick starter.
Before doing anything on brew day...take the yeast to sit out a room temp.
Draw 800ml of wort off during the mash....cool it to room temp....and then pitch the yeast into it. Then put it on a stir plate; I'll just run the stir plate every now and then to agitate the yeast.
Once, I'm done with brew day....It's usually about 4 hours later and the small starter is getting a krausen or at least showing signs of life....then I pitch it into the wort.

Off the boil right? Not mash as it won’t be sanitized.

 

[couchsending]

If it’s a large enough beer I’ll just add more sparge water and collect the final running’s, boil it for a few minutes, then cool to room temp and make a “vitality” starter with that.

 

[murphyslaw]

I just saw a video on treehousenates Instagram of regular rolled oats going into a grain bill. I need to try using those.

Any chance you have the link? I don't see any videos on his instagram

 

[cheesebach]

Rule # 9: Always Make A Starter when using liquid yeast. What if there were no signs of fermentation, what would you then do? I have received liquid yeast that was in date and never came to life. I won't take that chance again.

Ditto - in fact, just 2 days ago had a pack of imperial darkness dated in January of this year fail to ferment a 1L starter. Not sure what could have happened to that yeast to kill it off completely like that, but glad I made the starter and don’t think I’ll ever skip that step with liquid yeast again.

 

[leesmith]

Off the boil right? Not mash as it won’t be sanitized.

Never really thought about that. You got a point there. But yeah, I’ve been pulling it off the mash.

*Edit...I guess that’s the wrong answer. I have thought about it, briefly.....with everything like the stir bar and flask sanitized beforehand, I’ve always been willing to accept the wort being at 150 something was enough to kill anything that could outcompete the yeast being pitched into it.