New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[couchsending]

I hope you are wrong ) - the only way to find out is to wait to see how the beer tastes in the end
SRJHops - I mash at a precise 67C using BIAB, so no sparge. I will buy some pH strips as their are cheap, so we will see if the PH is the problem
couchsending - I will think about it, and see if I could make a compromise between oxidation, diacetyl and mercaptans

EDIT: I just found a water report for my city : 7,26 PH

The pH of your water is of little importance. If you can find the Calcium, Chloride, Sulfate, Magnesium, Sodium as well as total hardness and alkalinity and/or bicarbonate that is what you need. At the bare minimum Alkalinity and total Hardness.

 

[stefan646]

I wonder what kind of flavors 6oz of hops along with all the kettle trub left to cool overnight could produce....

Next time rack the beer off the kettle trub into a food safe, heat proof vessel to cool.

That would be the first thing I would recommend if your going to continue doing no chill.

This is the first time I chilled in to the kettle because I had to wait for the wort to cool to 160F an was getting late Usually after the flameout I put the hot wort directly in to the bucket and let it cool till the next day when I pitch - never had a problem this way
Anyway a shine of hope appear : I didn't discarded the hidrometer sample from this morning and the trub settle to the bottom so I could taste the clear wort : this time was sweet and a little bitter(I am sure from the hops) <3 So it seems that the trub was the problem, maybe because it contains so much hops

couchsending- only the total hardness - 2,17 G

 

[couchsending]

Agree that 04 is the better call for dried yeast, but I've never heard that 05 doesn't biotransform. Interesting...

I guess it makes sense that some yeasts that don't "biotransform" well. Does that mean that 1318 and Conan/Juice biotransform the best?

The ones that “biotransform” the best you might not use in an IPA.

It requires the yeast to have the beta glucosdiase properties. I don’t think there’s a list that I’ve found that states all of them.

From the recent MBAA podcast we know that:

Belle Saison does
Bry-97 does
Lalleman New England does
- thought to be the dry version of Conan but I’m not sure. Supposedly this yeast sucks and consequently hasn’t been produced in 11g packs.

Nottingham doesn’t

It’s long been stated that US-05, 001, 1056 didn’t. I would tend to agree but there was a recent study by Sierra Nevada that might refute this?

34/70 does

I think a lot of the yeasts in the “mixed origin” or “mosaic” part of the genome study probably do as well?

Some wine yeasts definitley do.

 

[couchsending]

This is the first time I chilled in to the kettle because I had to wait for the wort to cool to 160F an was getting late Usually after the flameout I put the hot wort directly in to the bucket and let it cool till the next day when I pitch - never had a problem this way
Anyway a shine of hope appear : I didn't discarded the hidrometer sample from this morning and the trub settle to the bottom so I could taste the clear wort : this time was sweet and a little bitter(I am sure from the hops) <3 So it seems that the trub was the problem, maybe because it contains so much hops

couchsending- only the total hardness - 2,17 G

Wort should be bitter. It has virtually nothing to do with how the final beer will taste.

You’ll need to find out some more info on your water if you want to use it and start adjusting your pH. Just adding gypsum most likely won’t get you there.

Send a sample into ward labs or call your town to see if they have a more detailed water report. I bet they do. Once you find that out you can plug the numbers into a water spreadsheet and at least get much closer to optimum pH values. For hoppy beers mash pH is important but the window is pretty big at least if your sparge water pH is adjusted and is low enough. Kettle pH is more important however.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

The dry hops won't make your beer more bitter

I'm not so sure about that.

http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/

 

[SRJHops]

Wort should be bitter. It has virtually nothing to do with how the final beer will taste.

You’ll need to find out some more info on your water if you want to use it and start adjusting your pH. Just adding gypsum most likely won’t get you there.

Send a sample into ward labs or call your town to see if they have a more detailed water report. I bet they do. Once you find that out you can plug the numbers into a water spreadsheet and at least get much closer to optimum pH values. For hoppy beers mash pH is important but the window is pretty big at least if your sparge water pH is adjusted and is low enough. Kettle pH is more important however.

Future me agrees with you, but understanding and adjusting WATER is a journey that can take a while. Current me knows there is a LOT more to learn about water, for sure...

In the meantime, adding gypsum may not get you there, but it will lower the PH for the brewing water, won't it? My local water has a PH of 9 on average. Once I started adding gypsum I got a big bump in efficiency, so it seems to be helping.

 

[SRJHops]

I'm not so sure about that.

http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/

I dig Scott's work, but the proof is in the pudding (er, beer) -- most of us have dry hopped a lot of beers and they haven't become much more bitter because of it. So, gotta wonder about that study and the practical applications for homebrewing...

Dry hopping can certainly add some bitterness, but compared to hops in the boil, IMO it's not worth worrying about for most homebrewers. That's why we are steeping the NEIPA hops at under 180, to get flavor and not bitterness. Certainly at 68 degrees the dry hops are mostly going to impart flavor and aroma.

I have 18 ounces of post-boil hops in my current 6-gallon NEIPA, including 9 ounces that were dry hopped. Next time I'm going to add more hops to the boil because it needs a little MORE bitterness.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I dig Scott's work, but the proof is in the pudding (er, beer) -- most of us have dry hopped a lot of beers and they haven't become much more bitter because of it. So, gotta wonder about that study and the practical applications for homebrewing...

Dry hopping can certainly add some bitterness, but compared to hops in the boil, IMO it's not worth worrying about for most homebrewers. That's why we are steeping the NEIPA hops at under 180, to get flavor and not bitterness. Certainly at 68 degrees the dry hops are mostly going to impart flavor and aroma.

I have 18 ounces of post-boil hops in my current 6-gallon NEIPA, including 9 ounces that were dry hopped. Next time I'm going to add more hops to the boil because it needs a little MORE bitterness.

If you're aware dryhopping can add some bitterness, what are you wondering about? The article and studies he impressively dug into basically say just that. I think a lot of people are under the impression it adds NONE, which may not be the case. With how heavy handed today's beer recipes are getting on the dry hops, it's something to at least think about.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've had plenty of beers get more bitter after dry hopping. How do I know? They were beers that I tasted and decided I wanted to dry hop after the fact. the bitterness definitely went up in some of them, at least the perception of it - not a ton but it went up. More importantly, I've noticed that some dry hopped beers have much less sweetness in the finish. The dry hops add a perception of dryness that can slowly drop away some with time. I was shocked one time when I dry hopped a barleywine that was too sweet for my taste. After the dry hop, I hardly recognized the beer. It came across SO much drier (this was for a largish dry hop (1 oz per G)).

I dig Scott's work, but the proof is in the pudding (er, beer) -- most of us have dry hopped a lot of beers and they haven't become much more bitter because of it. So, gotta wonder about that study and the practical applications for homebrewing...

Dry hopping can certainly add some bitterness, but compared to hops in the boil, IMO it's not worth worrying about for most homebrewers. That's why we are steeping the NEIPA hops at under 180, to get flavor and not bitterness. Certainly at 68 degrees the dry hops are mostly going to impart flavor and aroma.

I have 18 ounces of post-boil hops in my current 6-gallon NEIPA, including 9 ounces that were dry hopped. Next time I'm going to add more hops to the boil because it needs a little MORE bitterness.

 

[Dgallo]

If you're aware dryhopping can add some bitterness, what are you wondering about? The article and studies he impressively dug into basically say just that. I think a lot of people are under the impression it adds NONE, .....

Measurable Ibus and perceived bitterness are two different things. You maybe be adding actual ibus by dryhopping but it their perceivable bittering impact is quite low per ounce. Now obviously it has the potential to increase the perceived bitterness of you are aggressively dryhoping and prolonging contact time, but through typical dryhopping rates with typical alphas, it shouldn’t have to much of an impact on perceivable bitterness

Edit : just to be clear I’m talking about after the beer has conditioned to hit its prime. Freshly kegged beers heavily dry hopped will have some hop bite from the particulate

 

[Dgallo]

Deleted

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Measurable Ibus and perceived bitterness are two different things. You maybe be adding actual ibus by dryhopping but it their perceivable bittering impact is quite low per ounce. Now obviously it has the potential to increase the perceived bitterness of you are aggressively dryhoping and prolonging contact time, but through typical dryhopping rates with typical alphas, it shouldn’t have to much of an impact on perceivable bitterness

The bittering potential is lower, I believe the studies found them to be 66% as effective as hops added on the hot side. I've seen a lot of posts of people who thought their beer came out too bitter though, and I've had some do it too. I think whirlpool and dryhops are pulling a lot more IBUs than we previously thought, especially since a lot of people previously thought they imparted no bitterness. It's something to be aware of if you plan to do huge hopstand and dryhop charges, and not going overboard on your boil IBUs.

 

[couchsending]

Future me agrees with you, but understanding and adjusting WATER is a journey that can take a while. Current me knows there is a LOT more to learn about water, for sure...

In the meantime, adding gypsum may not get you there, but it will lower the PH for the brewing water, won't it? My local water has a PH of 9 on average. Once I started adding gypsum I got a big bump in efficiency, so it seems to be helping.

If your goal is to lower pH of brewing water you need to use acid.

Ideally you need a pH meter but if you know your water report or you’re building from RO you can just use the spreadsheets and put your faith in them. It’ll at least get you close, much closer than without.

Water is relatively easy when you know a few simple rules. I am no scientist, engineer, or even remotely good at math. I’ve read the water book probably 4 or 5 times and my brain still smokes every time.

My recommendation to people is to understand ph first and foremost and what it takes to get it to fall into spec. If you’re building from scratch and making hoppy beers shoot for 75-100 ppm Ca split between Gypsum and CaCl and leave it at that until you’ve got pH and other processes dialed.

Mash ph is important but honesty the window is rather large that it can fall in and still make good beer. Yes efficiency will be better at certain values but the difference is minimal. If it falls between 5.2 and 5.5 you’re gonnna be fine.

One of the biggest faults in Homebrew beer and honestly tons of commercial craft beer is tannin extraction from pH rising through the sparge. Once you know what it tastes like you’ll be amazed how many beers you pick it up in. If you’re using RO it’s not as big of a deal but if you’re using your tap water and it’s got a decent amount of alkalinity it’s easy to get out of whack and end up with a harsh beer from tannin extraction.

Even with RO I still try to make sure my sparge water pH is between 5.2 and 5.4. It only takes 5-7 drops of lactic but every now and again the RO wasn’t so RO and it takes quite a bit more.

When people recommend a mash pH of 5.2 it’s because when you go that low and you don’t adjust anything else your kettle pH will most likely fall into spec and you’ll be fine. But if you’re adjusting sparge pH, not over sparging, and checking your kettle full pH you can get away with higher mash pH numbers.

Kettle pH is even more important especially for hoppy beers. If it’s too high you’ll get a much harsher bitterness and you won’t get ideal protein coagulation (although there are other variables there too). Hops increase pH, if you’re adding a ton through the boil it’ll negate the natural pH drop in the boil so you’ll want to add some acid.

Ideally if your kettle full pH is around 5.4 for most pale beers you’ll be fine. It generally means your mash pH was low enough and your pH didn’t go up while you’re sparging and extract some harsh tannins.

 

[Dgallo]

The bittering potential is lower, I believe the studies found them to be 66% as effective as hops added on the hot side. I've seen a lot of posts of people who thought their beer came out too bitter though, and I've had some do it too. I think whirlpool and dryhops are pulling a lot more IBUs than we previously thought, especially since a lot of people previously thought they imparted no bitterness. It's something

I can get behind it. Temps are very important with whirlpool and so are dryhop contact times. Also another thing people over look is water chemisty. It has a huge impact on the perception of bitterness

 

[couchsending]

I already had crashed the beer. I was thinking I wouldn't have enough yeast in suspension using 1318. That stuff flocc's like a mother so cbc-1 to make up for that.

There's ton of yeast in suspension, you could probably lager it for a month and there'd technically still be enough yeast in suspension.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm honestly surprised this thread is still so popular. I would have thought most people would have figured out how to make a decent NEIPA by now, because it's a REALLY easy style to brew. What's left to talk about?

I'm not knocking the style or anything - I like them and make them, but I really am curious because it's a super easy style, unless maybe your only means of packaging is bottling.

It just seems like a dead horse beaten to a pulp.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I'm honestly surprised this thread is still so popular. I would have thought most people would have figured out how to make a decent NEIPA by now.

Maybe people are trying to make exceptional NEIPAs...

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

It just seems like a dead horse beaten to a pulp.

A true juice-wolf adds that pulp to their next NEEPA...mmm juicy.

 

[couchsending]

An easy style to make... yes

An easy style to make really well... no

As is evident with 95/100 commercial examples you try.

 

[SRJHops]

If you're aware dryhopping can add some bitterness, what are you wondering about? The article and studies he impressively dug into basically say just that. I think a lot of people are under the impression it adds NONE, which may not be the case. With how heavy handed today's beer recipes are getting on the dry hops, it's something to at least think about.

Not wondering, just trying to help a first-time NEIPA brewer decide whether he should add dry hops. He was worried that his wort was already too bitter, so was thinking of not adding dry hops. (I believe Dgallo correctly diagnosed that it was likely astringency, not bitterness.)

 

[SRJHops]

If your goal is to lower pH of brewing water you need to use acid.

Ideally you need a pH meter but if you know your water report or you’re building from RO you can just use the spreadsheets and put your faith in them. It’ll at least get you close, much closer than without.

Water is relatively easy when you know a few simple rules. I am no scientist, engineer, or even remotely good at math. I’ve read the water book probably 4 or 5 times and my brain still smokes every time.

My recommendation to people is to understand ph first and foremost and what it takes to get it to fall into spec. If you’re building from scratch and making hoppy beers shoot for 75-100 ppm Ca split between Gypsum and CaCl and leave it at that until you’ve got pH and other processes dialed.

Mash ph is important but honesty the window is rather large that it can fall in and still make good beer. Yes efficiency will be better at certain values but the difference is minimal. If it falls between 5.2 and 5.5 you’re gonnna be fine.

One of the biggest faults in Homebrew beer and honestly tons of commercial craft beer is tannin extraction from pH rising through the sparge. Once you know what it tastes like you’ll be amazed how many beers you pick it up in. If you’re using RO it’s not as big of a deal but if you’re using your tap water and it’s got a decent amount of alkalinity it’s easy to get out of whack and end up with a harsh beer from tannin extraction.

Even with RO I still try to make sure my sparge water pH is between 5.2 and 5.4. It only takes 5-7 drops of lactic but every now and again the RO wasn’t so RO and it takes quite a bit more.

When people recommend a mash pH of 5.2 it’s because when you go that low and you don’t adjust anything else your kettle pH will most likely fall into spec and you’ll be fine. But if you’re adjusting sparge pH, not over sparging, and checking your kettle full pH you can get away with higher mash pH numbers.

Kettle pH is even more important especially for hoppy beers. If it’s too high you’ll get a much harsher bitterness and you won’t get ideal protein coagulation (although there are other variables there too). Hops increase pH, if you’re adding a ton through the boil it’ll negate the natural pH drop in the boil so you’ll want to add some acid.

Ideally if your kettle full pH is around 5.4 for most pale beers you’ll be fine. It generally means your mash pH was low enough and your pH didn’t go up while you’re sparging and extract some harsh tannins.

I dig this -- thank you! Well, future me thanks you. Current me will need some time to digest it...

For now, though, I do have trouble imagining that I'd use RO water and then build it up by adding chemicals -- that just seems like a step too far for this hobby right now. The water coming out of my tap is great (after I run it through a water filter for RV's to remove the chlorine).

My current NEIPA -- without knowing anything about adjusting water beyond adding gypsum -- is as tasty as many of the commercial breweries. But to get it exceptional, it might take RO water...

I suppose these are the questions all homebrewers ask -- how much time and equipment do I need to make a beer that meets the level I seek?

 

[SanPancho]

Any idea where youd find info on wine yeasts that biotransform? Ive thought of pitching a wine first, then a beer yeast afterwards. But if i can find one thats non killer and also biotransforms then even better.

 

[ttuato]

Hello guys,
I brew this beer last night and this morning I transfer it to the bucket (no chill). I miss my water numbers(damn those hops consume a lot ) so I end with 17l of wort and a FG of 1066. I think that I will add 3.5l of water to adjust it to 1055. Despite that all went fine, but here is the thing:
-I taste the hidrometer sample and the taste was fine at first and became bitter and bitter to the point that I had to drink some water after that sip so I could get rid of the bitter taste I know that after the fermentation the bitter from the hops are fading a lot, but should I be worried about it? I never taste a beer while fermenting so my question is: on day 3, when I open the bucket to dry hop, I will taste the beer to see how bitter is the beer and try to figure it out if I should use 6 oz of hops or I should scale it down - what taste should the beer have then? -very bitter, bitter, bitter as it should be when it is finish

Bitterness is one of the first things to settle out when it conditions. 3 days in cold keg it will be a totally different beer, one day later different again, one day later different again, etc. It will change dramatically each day during the first week in keg then slowly over second week when it will be “settled” and taste similar for about a month (hops in keg & oxidation are extenuating factors)

 

[marchuk96]

I dig Scott's work, but the proof is in the pudding (er, beer) -- most of us have dry hopped a lot of beers and they haven't become much more bitter because of it. So, gotta wonder about that study and the practical applications for homebrewing...

Dry hopping can certainly add some bitterness, but compared to hops in the boil, IMO it's not worth worrying about for most homebrewers. That's why we are steeping the NEIPA hops at under 180, to get flavor and not bitterness. Certainly at 68 degrees the dry hops are mostly going to impart flavor and aroma.

I have 18 ounces of post-boil hops in my current 6-gallon NEIPA, including 9 ounces that were dry hopped. Next time I'm going to add more hops to the boil because it needs a little MORE bitterness.

Do you mean add more to the18 oz. total you have already or use less from you whirlpool/dry hop to add to boil??

 

[marchuk96]

[QUOTE="Cavpilot2000 said: It just seems like a dead horse beaten to a pulp.[/QUOTE]

That horse is actually a unicorn...and sometimes its possible to see it.. But its also extremely difficult to catch it!!

 

[SRJHops]

Do you mean add more to the18 oz. total you have already or use less from you whirlpool/dry hop to add to boil??

Less from whirlpool and move to the boil. I will likely try just 16 ounces total next time, and maybe try 14 on another. So many variables! Right now I am 50-50 hot side hops vs cold side/dry hops. Might play with that a bit too... Maybe 60-40?

 

[couchsending]

Any idea where youd find info on wine yeasts that biotransform? Ive thought of pitching a wine first, then a beer yeast afterwards. But if i can find one thats non killer and also biotransforms then even better.

Most are killer... I know 71B isn’t but it’s also POF+.

I think there’s only one that’s POF- and will ferment complex sugars from wort. K1V-1116. It’s killer however.

It’s an odd yeast. It definitely does some interesting things to hops but I couldn’t figure out how to use it. Doesn’t flocc at all. Supposedly there’s a brewery in Quebec that uses it as their house Ale yeast. Made one great beer with it and 3-4 odd ones.

 

[couchsending]

I dig this -- thank you! Well, future me thanks you. Current me will need some time to digest it...

For now, though, I do have trouble imagining that I'd use RO water and then build it up by adding chemicals -- that just seems like a step too far for this hobby right now. The water coming out of my tap is great (after I run it through a water filter for RV's to remove the chlorine).

My current NEIPA -- without knowing anything about adjusting water beyond adding gypsum -- is as tasty as many of the commercial breweries. But to get it exceptional, it might take RO water...

I suppose these are the questions all homebrewers ask -- how much time and equipment do I need to make a beer that meets the level I seek?

When u say the water out of your tap is great what do you mean? It tastes great? You can make crappy beer with great tasting water and great beer with crappy tasting water.

Yes ideally it should taste great but honestly that’s of little concern. My well water tastes fine yet I literally couldn’t make any style of beer with it without some serious adjustments.

Send your water into ward labs to have it tested. It costs maybe $30-$40. It’s really easy to then plug it into a water spreadsheet that’s basically no cost.

You however might live in one of the few areas of the country where you actually don’t need to do much to your water?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

An easy style to make... yes

An easy style to make really well... no

As is evident with 95/100 commercial examples you try.

True, but that goes for all styles of beer...

Most commercial examples of NEIPA are not great because the grain bill is an afterthought and it's all about cranking out mediocre beer and cramming in a ton of dry hops, because most consumers don't seem to care and all they want is hop juice.

Start with a good base beer, selectively add good hops, minimize or eliminate oxygen exposure at every step of the process from grain to glass, and you'll have a very good NEIPA.

People are chasing haze and opacity like they matter, when if you look at the original and best examples (Heady, Julius, etc), they were hazy as a byproduct of the process, not as a goal or because of any special ingredient (like flour or other such nonsense). If you are looking for tricks to make your NEIPA hazy, you're missing the point.

Here's one of mine modeled after Julius next to the real thing. Nothing special done to make it hazy, and it was delicious.

 

[SanPancho]

Thats why i was wondering if anybody had come up with a list of the wines yeasts that biotransform. Cross reference with the killer/neutral/nonkiller list and maybe get a working combo.

The other idea was that with wine pitched first, the extra glycerin would also increase the body, although not sure if thatd ultimately be good or bad in this style.