New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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kevink said:
I doubt it... at least not in my case. None of my beers are carbed before dry hopping, and they all have the burn for around the first two weeks in the keg. I believe it's just from a high concentration of very fine, almost invisible hop particles that are very present in the beginning pours of the keg. When things settle out in the keg they end up at the bottom, and that is exactly where most kegs pull the beer from.
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It could certainly be from microscopic hop particles, but there is some mechanism that is keeping them in suspension long-term in some of these beers for whatever reason. The batch that had it for me was a split batch between 1318 vs. Conan - the 1318 batch had it and the Conan didn't. In the 1318 batch, the hop burn persisted for 6 weeks in the keg until it kicked. Didn't matter if it was the first pour of the day or the third. Neither beer was carbonated at the time the dry hops were added, but both were carbonated within a few days of when the dry hop was done through natural carbonation with a spunding valve.
 
hezagenius said:
Speaking from my experience only, I notice the burn when I do really big dry hops. On my latest, I did a 14oz dry hop for 5 gallons on Day 2 and there is still some burn to it after being in the keg for over a month. My next batch, I'm going to really tone down the dry hops to maybe 6oz and see how that goes.
Click to expand...

I use more dry hops than that and the burn is only in the very beginning of the keg. Are you crashing? It's possible that you are getting way to many particles in the keg. Just guessing here.
 
cheesebach said:
It could certainly be from microscopic hop particles, but there is some mechanism that is keeping them in suspension long-term in some of these beers for whatever reason. The batch that had it for me was a split batch between 1318 vs. Conan - the 1318 batch had it and the Conan didn't. In the 1318 batch, the hop burn persisted for 6 weeks in the keg until it kicked. Didn't matter if it was the first pour of the day or the third. Neither beer was carbonated at the time the dry hops were added, but both were carbonated within a few days of when the dry hop was done through natural carbonation with a spunding valve.
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Do you think the Conan flocced more and took more burn/particles with it? I always use 1318 and have never had the burn last that long and I massively dry hop. Maybe it's just a combination of different factors.
 
kevink said:
I use more dry hops than that and the burn is only in the very beginning of the keg. Are you crashing? It's possible that you are getting way to many particles in the keg. Just guessing here.
Click to expand...

I don't crash before I rack to the keg, but I use the Clear Beer system so I shouldn't be pulling in anything that has dropped out from cold temps.
 
kevink said:
Do you think the Conan flocced more and took more burn/particles with it? I always use 1318 and have never had the burn last that long and I massively dry hop. Maybe it's just a combination of different factors.
Click to expand...


Suppose it’s possible, but generally, 1318 is supposed to have higher flocculation than Conan. For whatever reason, 1318 seems to be the mostly likely yeast of the ones commonly used in this style to give the burn based on the anecdotal reports in this thread. Could just be it’s also the most frequently used though. Probably a tricky combination of factors or breweries like Trillium would have figured it out by now.
 
cheesebach said:
Suppose it’s possible, but generally, 1318 is supposed to have higher flocculation than Conan. For whatever reason, 1318 seems to be the mostly likely yeast of the ones commonly used in this style to give the burn based on the anecdotal reports in this thread. Could just be it’s also the most frequently used though. Probably a tricky combination of factors or breweries like Trillium would have figured it out by now.
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Yeah, some of their beers are just not good before the burn goes away. An example of the tricky combination of factors is Tired Hands. They brewed two or three IPAs with Mango and they had terrible burn! None of their other beers have it, and I try almost all of them! I love damn near everything Tired Hands brews, by the way, just not those few beers. Maybe it was just some weird combination of the mango and whatever else he usually does.
 
I think the burn is a combination of 4 factors:

- Dry hop timing
- Mash temps
- Yeast selection
- Sensitivity to "the burn"

I listened to the Brew Strong episode on NE IPA's yesterday. Jamil insists that you can't dry hop early because it will result in an "unpleasant bitterness" based on an experiment they did at Heretic. It seems that is not true as many folks in this thread have had great success with early dry hopping. However, Jamil also insists that you have to mash high. I reported a while back that I experienced what I would call an unpleasant bitterness when I mashed at 157F. It seems that the viscosity might be keeping something in suspension. Some folks have reported splitting a batch between different yeasts - 1 batch had it, the other didn't. I posted this a few pages ago but it seems like increased polyphenols due to the bioconversion of dry hopping early is a likely culprit:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

That said, maybe some strains are kicking out more polyphenols than others?

Maybe the safest way to avoid it is to mash on the lower end and dry hop a little later.
 
Jamil... lol. I didn't think he knew anything about NE IPAs. I would take his advice with a grain of salt.
 
kevink said:
Jamil... lol. I didn't think he knew anything about NE IPAs. I would take his advice with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

And that's exactly what I posted. Clearly his claim that you can't dry hop early is false. However, the fact that he is mashing high caught my attention because I posted a while back that I suspected mash temps of being a factor in the burn.
 
It's so funny. He has basically ignored the existence of NE IPA forever, and now he's saying how to brew them. Oh man, I can't wait to listen to this! Should make for some good laughs!

Some of my best NE IPAs were mashed at 149. I have gone up to 155ish and haven't noticed any difference.
 
Gustatorian said:
On a homebrew level, the cold-storage in keg, and subsequently the beer tasting the best 10-14 days out, is akin to what commercial brewers see in their brites. Most will cold crash in their fermentors, transfer to brites for 1-2 weeks, then serve.
Click to expand...

I think the length of time beer stays in brites is different at every brewery. For example, at the I work for, nothing stays in the Brite for longer then 3 days.
 
TimmyWit said:
I think the burn is a combination of 4 factors:

- Dry hop timing
- Mash temps
- Yeast selection
- Sensitivity to "the burn"

I listened to the Brew Strong episode on NE IPA's yesterday. Jamil insists that you can't dry hop early because it will result in an "unpleasant bitterness" based on an experiment they did at Heretic. It seems that is not true as many folks in this thread have had great success with early dry hopping. However, Jamil also insists that you have to mash high. I reported a while back that I experienced what I would call an unpleasant bitterness when I mashed at 157F. It seems that the viscosity might be keeping something in suspension. Some folks have reported splitting a batch between different yeasts - 1 batch had it, the other didn't. I posted this a few pages ago but it seems like increased polyphenols due to the bioconversion of dry hopping early is a likely culprit:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

That said, maybe some strains are kicking out more polyphenols than others?

Maybe the safest way to avoid it is to mash on the lower end and dry hop a little later.
Click to expand...

At home I mash high- 156-160 and dry hop on day 1-2. My last NE pale was actually with British hops, and Scott Janish actually tried and enjoyed it. No harsh burn. it flocked well. Only dry hopped with 4 oz tho
 
EndOfLine said:
At home I mash high- 156-160 and dry hop on day 1-2. My last NE pale was actually with British hops, and Scott Janish actually tried and enjoyed it. No harsh burn. it flocked well. Only dry hopped with 4 oz tho
Click to expand...

How much beer was in the fermenter?
If 5 or 6 gallons, that's not a big enough dry hop to draw any conclusions from.
 
EndOfLine said:
I think the length of time beer stays in brites is different at every brewery. For example, at the I work for, nothing stays in the Brite for longer then 3 days.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Brites are for crashing and carbing. Spending weeks just hanging out? No. That would be a lagering tank, typically horizontal. Not an ideal match for hazy ipa i would think.

But one thing im curious about is filtration. I also believe hop particulate is what causes the burn. So id think if your beer has great body and flavor but gets some burn, why would you not filter? You dont need to go all the way down to 5 or 1 micron like other styles. Id assume something large enough to let yeast pass but small enough to catch the particulates would be the idea.

Bought a 100 mesh/80 micron filter for home rig per advice on this thread. Will report soon hopefully.
 
SanPancho said:
Exactly. Brites are for crashing and carbing. Spending weeks just hanging out? No. That would be a lagering tank, typically horizontal. Not an ideal match for hazy ipa i would think.

But one thing im curious about is filtration. I also believe hop particulate is what causes the burn. So id think if your beer has great body and flavor but gets some burn, why would you not filter? You dont need to go all the way down to 5 or 1 micron like other styles. Id assume something large enough to let yeast pass but small enough to catch the particulates would be the idea.

Bought a 100 mesh/80 micron filter for home rig per advice on this thread. Will report soon hopefully.
Click to expand...

I know several brewers that pour straight from brites, for weeks – essentially using their brites as serving tanks. They have UNIs to cold-crash. Most will cold-crash in their fermentor, transfer to brite, carb, then serve straight to tap room.
 
TimmyWit said:
I think the burn is a combination of 4 factors:

- Dry hop timing
- Mash temps
- Yeast selection
- Sensitivity to "the burn"

I listened to the Brew Strong episode on NE IPA's yesterday. Jamil insists that you can't dry hop early because it will result in an "unpleasant bitterness" based on an experiment they did at Heretic. It seems that is not true as many folks in this thread have had great success with early dry hopping. However, Jamil also insists that you have to mash high. I reported a while back that I experienced what I would call an unpleasant bitterness when I mashed at 157F. It seems that the viscosity might be keeping something in suspension. Some folks have reported splitting a batch between different yeasts - 1 batch had it, the other didn't. I posted this a few pages ago but it seems like increased polyphenols due to the bioconversion of dry hopping early is a likely culprit:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

That said, maybe some strains are kicking out more polyphenols than others?

Maybe the safest way to avoid it is to mash on the lower end and dry hop a little later.
Click to expand...

Carbonation can also cause the burn. I agree with you that there are a number of factors at play and each of them can contribute to the sensation. I have made beers that were not very hoppy, but highly carbonated, that caused the burn. I just did a NEIPA with cryo and the burn was there for the whole keg. I also find that how you carbonate can make a difference...in my experience forced carbonization is worse than natural carbonization. At play here is a lot of complex chemistry with many variables that can affect the final outcome...
 
Not sure about "hop burn" but all my attempts had astringency from grain tannins, possibly due to lack of crystal malts to naturally balance out the pH. The level varied so only certain people could taste it, I however could always taste it. After identifying the problem I solved it by learning water treatment which in my case was calcium sulphate, calcium chloride and lactic acid. I also use the Nottingham yeast that Heady Topper uses from England I'm getting the same peach and apricot flavours.
 
stonebrewer said:
I just did a NEIPA with cryo and the burn was there for the whole keg.
Click to expand...

If that happens again, try tossing some gelatin in the keg. I had 3 kegs with the burn (different yeast). I added gelatin to 2 of them see if I could drop out whatever was causing it. It took a few days but worked like a champ. The burn in the third keg remained until I added the gelatin. Sure it will drop it more clear but it did not affect the flavor and aroma.
 
EndOfLine said:
So for kicks I just make a NE pale and used British Target hops in the WP and dry hop.... the flavor is bracingly strong British flavors: earth, spicy, floral, herby, and sage! Glad I did it, probably won't do it again. Will use Goldings next time
Click to expand...

Would you mind sharing ? I'm looking to do something similar with goldings too :)
 
I brewed my normal #1418 recipe as an "english" version a few months ago. I used a bit of Target to bitter and then all EKG for the other additions - 6 ounces at flame out, 6 ounces dry hop.

It was ok..... but I would not brew it again. It was neither as good as a normal NE IPA (with citra/mosaic/etc.) nor was it as good as my regular English Ordinary Bitter.
 
bigbud78 said:
Would you mind sharing ? I'm looking to do something similar with goldings too :)
Click to expand...

So I did make this again with a few tweaks. I used fullers strain so it would drop clear, and dropped the abv to 4.5% and then I naturally carbed it in a keg for "real ale" bjcp burp competition. I still used the hopping schedule of NE IPA and the NE IPA water profile. I am happy to report that it made it to the championship table as a British Golden Ale. The national judges told me that it was a bit overcarbed and was in contention for placement. Will totally make it again, here is the recipe:

5.5gallon batch.
2/3rds distilled water, 1/3 spring.
5grams of Cacl,
Imperial organic pub strain (002)
Base malt: 50% maris otter 50% barke Vienna malt.

1pound of carahell
6ounces of acid malt.

2 ounces of chinook and EKG at 5 min left in the boil (4 ounces total)

Whirlflock at 10 min left

2 ounces of chinook and ekg on day 1 (the day after the brewday)
 
Braufessor said:
I brewed my normal #1418 recipe as an "english" version a few months ago. I used a bit of Target to bitter and then all EKG for the other additions - 6 ounces at flame out, 6 ounces dry hop.

It was ok..... but I would not brew it again. It was neither as good as a normal NE IPA (with citra/mosaic/etc.) nor was it as good as my regular English Ordinary Bitter.
Click to expand...
Yeah I have made EKG only IPAs and I think the EKG (current and recent crops) need other hops to really make it shine and bring complexity.

Once again the national bjcp judges thought my British golden had citra in it lol.. similar experience as last years competition. The difference is last year I used Chico strain, and the biotransformation brought out more tropical notes. This year I used fullers, with basically the same recipe. This time I still got some tropical notes but with more herby earthy undertones.
 
Now compare with an 1865 William Younger Export - 1064 OG, 11.25oz of Cluster/Goldings/Spalt in 5gal, as we all know that Scottish beer is malt led and has hardly any hops in it....
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/lets-brew-wednesday-1865-william.html

What comes around, goes around...

Don't know about the Fuller's IPA specifically but in general Fuller's bitter with Target, Northdown and Challenger then have Goldings and others in late.

As has been hinted at, hop vintages matter in the UK. 2015 was fantastic, 2016 was lousy in Kent but better in Herefordshire (so go for either Hereford Goldings or things like Northdown which are mostly grown out west), 2017 had a dull August so things have ended up more earthy - certainly very "British" but if you're looking for the citrus you can get from eg Fuggles then you might be better looking at eg Savinjski Goldings or Willamette this year.

Personally, although I love Goldings, if I was looking to make a fairly "classic" British IPA at the moment, I'd probably be using something like 2:1 First Gold:Bramling Cross as late-kettle/dry additions. Or adding in some of the newer aroma varieties like Ernest and Jester - they're never going to be Citra-strong, but they do add some useful fruit flavours. Going back to Fullers, their latest collaboration with Cloudwater used Chinook & Simcoe dry hopped with Olicana in a NEIPA/DIPA-ish beer.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Now compare with an 1865 William Younger Export - 1064 OG, 11.25oz of Cluster/Goldings/Spalt in 5gal, as we all know that Scottish beer is malt led and has hardly any hops in it....
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/lets-brew-wednesday-1865-william.html

What comes around, goes around...

Don't know about the Fuller's IPA specifically but in general Fuller's bitter with Target, Northdown and Challenger then have Goldings and others in late.

As has been hinted at, hop vintages matter in the UK. 2015 was fantastic, 2016 was lousy in Kent but better in Herefordshire (so go for either Hereford Goldings or things like Northdown which are mostly grown out west), 2017 had a dull August so things have ended up more earthy - certainly very "British" but if you're looking for the citrus you can get from eg Fuggles then you might be better looking at eg Savinjski Goldings or Willamette this year.

Personally, although I love Goldings, if I was looking to make a fairly "classic" British IPA at the moment, I'd probably be using something like 2:1 First Gold:Bramling Cross as late-kettle/dry additions. Or adding in some of the newer aroma varieties like Ernest and Jester - they're never going to be Citra-strong, but they do add some useful fruit flavours. Going back to Fullers, their latest collaboration with Cloudwater used Chinook & Simcoe dry hopped with Olicana in a NEIPA/DIPA-ish beer.
Click to expand...

Great info! Thanks! My local homebrew store does not have first golds... I really want to try them
 
Gustatorian said:
I know several brewers that pour straight from brites, for weeks – essentially using their brites as serving tanks. They have UNIs to cold-crash. Most will cold-crash in their fermentor, transfer to brite, carb, then serve straight to tap room.
Click to expand...

then its a serving tank.

could you use a brite to serve your beer if you didnt have/want a cold room? sure. but now we're getting into the exceptions to the rule, as opposed to what is commonly understood. yes, its semantics. not trying to be argumentative. but a general statement was made, so then generally understood terms are assumed.

and what is commonly understood is that brites hold beer for just a few days to crash and carb, then package. which is what i and the other poster were referencing. use it to serve beer and its a serving tank. thats per the TTB. i defer to their authority.
 
EndOfLine said:
Great info! Thanks! My local homebrew store does not have first golds... I really want to try them
Click to expand...

They're common enough that they make it to the big online stores across the pond, although you'd probably have to buy from this side of the pond if you want the new varieties like Ernest and Endeavour that are still only grown on a fairly small scale.
 
EndOfLine said:
Great info! Thanks! My local homebrew store does not have first golds... I really want to try them
Click to expand...

im sure about first golds specifically, but morebeer went big on UK hops this past year. im not well versed in british hops but it seems that they've got quite a selection.
 
I, too, know Aslin and am there frequently. Here’s one quick thing and the prior recipe—many ounces of whirlpool hops-a lot of trub. Cold crashing is a good idea, but there is risk of a vegetal flavor being introduced nevertheless. Consider trying hop hash or LupuliN2. A lot more bang for the buck.




Brew_G said:
Gotcha. I'm OK with letting it sit for a bit, but I am pretty shocked at the bite/burn I'm getting at this point. I'm just really surprised to read about this "hop burn" now after all the research I've done on keg hopping.



As for 1318, I'm an Aslin junkie; their house strain is 1318/a variant, so I *know* I like it!



I can tell there's a really good beer in there, and I want to enjoy it!
Click to expand...
 
EndOfLine said:
So I did make this again with a few tweaks. I used fullers strain so it would drop clear, and dropped the abv to 4.5% and then I naturally carbed it in a keg for "real ale" bjcp burp competition. I still used the hopping schedule of NE IPA and the NE IPA water profile. I am happy to report that it made it to the championship table as a British Golden Ale. The national judges told me that it was a bit overcarbed and was in contention for placement. Will totally make it again, here is the recipe:

5.5gallon batch.
2/3rds distilled water, 1/3 spring.
5grams of Cacl,
Imperial organic pub strain (002)
Base malt: 50% maris otter 50% barke Vienna malt.

1pound of carahell
6ounces of acid malt.

2 ounces of chinook and EKG at 5 min left in the boil (4 ounces total)

Whirlflock at 10 min left

2 ounces of chinook and ekg on day 1 (the day after the brewday)
Click to expand...

I will definitely being giving this a go thank you :D Chinook is one of my favorites :D
 
I bought a six pack of Epics New England IPA (new to me have never seen it before) 1 week ago to this day, which i enjoyed. It had good color, taste and aroma. Went back yesterday and got the same beer, poured the first can and it was an oxidized mess. Crazy how in just 1 week a decent beer turns into a bad one with this style. More surprising that it happened on the commercial level that fast. I know oxidization is real but i always felt people played it up too much but I'm surprised seeing it happen first hand.
 
plazola86 said:
I bought a six pack of Epics New England IPA (new to me have never seen it before) 1 week ago to this day, which i enjoyed. It had good color, taste and aroma. Went back yesterday and got the same beer, poured the first can and it was an oxidized mess. Crazy how in just 1 week a decent beer turns into a bad one with this style. More surprising that it happened on the commercial level that fast. I know oxidization is real but i always felt people played it up too much but I'm surprised seeing it happen first hand.
Click to expand...

Sounds like really sloppy canning/o2 management.
 
rwing7486 said:
Has anyone tried the Omega DIPA yeast? They claim this yeast to be the conan strain but was curious if anyone has brewed a NE IPA with this yeast yet and what they thought of the results

http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/dipa-ale/
Click to expand...



I just finished making several beers with this strain. I made a small blonde, harvested yeast, and then built starters with the saved yeast. The beers all ended very high in FG. I was pretty disappointed. I’ve also heard of others having similar issues with this strain. The kicker is that despite the high ending gravities, several of the beers were excellent. They were the best session IPAs I’ve made. They did all end in the 1.020s though when I would have expected maybe 1.012-1.018 range.
 

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