New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Beerdrinker85]

For those that brew the IPAs all the time - how long until they loose their freshness in the keg? I have a 2.5 gallon keg that I’m thinking small batches might be the better route. I’ve had some that were even 1 month old in the can that loose that hop freshness quickly.

I have never keg hopped.
With 6-7oz at whirlpool and 6oz in the fermenter, my keg is always fresh for 4-5 weeks. By that time it's almost empty. I had a keg that lasted 2 months and it was very very good. I am doing a no oxygen transfer. My beer is always better after 2 weeks in the keg.

 

[Tarpon87]

I have never keg hopped.
With 6-7oz at whirlpool and 6oz in the fermenter, my keg is always fresh for 4-5 weeks. By that time it's almost empty. I had a keg that lasted 2 months and it was very very good. I am doing a no oxygen transfer. My beer is always better after 2 weeks in the keg.

Exactly what i have noticed with mine as well.

 

[kevink]

For those that brew the IPAs all the time - how long until they loose their freshness in the keg? I have a 2.5 gallon keg that I’m thinking small batches might be the better route. I’ve had some that were even 1 month old in the can that loose that hop freshness quickly.

A minimum of two months if you don't let one oxygen molecule touch it! Probably longer, but the kegs never stick around.

 

[Gustatorian]

A minimum of two months if you don't let one oxygen molecule touch it! Probably longer, but the kegs never stick around.

This is what commercial brewers are seeing as well with these beers...except its 1-2 weeks in the brite tank instead of the keg.

 

[Hannabrew]

I'm with the above posts...at 2 months still tasting great and retaining color. If you're having issues with it fading I would ensure you're limiting O2 exposure on the cold side and also reducing the number of times you need to purge the keg as that is letting out aroma/flavor as well IMO.

 

[kevink]

This is what commercial brewers are seeing as well with these beers...except its 1-2 weeks in the brite tank instead of the keg.

I can't say I agree. Commercial cans that I get fall off a lot faster, and this doesn't surprise me based on how much O2 the beer is exposed to during canning. You can do a lot better on the homebrew scale going into kegs if you're careful. After reading your post again, I'm not sure if you're talking about commercial cans or kegs.

 

[shoreman]

I'm with the above posts...at 2 months still tasting great and retaining color. If you're having issues with it fading I would ensure you're limiting O2 exposure on the cold side and also reducing the number of times you need to purge the keg as that is letting out aroma/flavor as well IMO.

I haven’t starting nerding out on these beers yet with my own gear, just have had a bunch of them and visited Alchemist recently.

I know my West Coast IPAs peak at like 4 weeks in the keg so I was thinking since these beers are all aroma hops it would be shorter.

I guess I’ll start at the small batch and see what age does to it. There seems to be enough info out there around oxygen so will look out for that 🙄

 

[jakturner]

For those that brew the IPAs all the time - how long until they loose their freshness in the keg? I have a 2.5 gallon keg that I’m thinking small batches might be the better route. I’ve had some that were even 1 month old in the can that loose that hop freshness quickly.

That's what I do, I ferment 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon corny with a spunding valve and a floating dip tube. After 9 days I jump to a water purged 3 gallon corny, never touches O2 and the beer is already carbonated. Jumping beer to the new keg take about 5 mins. Repeat every 3-4 weeks as needed.

 

[Tarpon87]

Just ordered the grain bill for this again, deciding what hops ill use. I still like a 60min bittering addition, usually .75oz of warrior (im in the minority i know). I tried a red a while ago using 85% red x malt 15% flaked oats, el dorado/belma/huell melon. Came out really good but not NEIPA like, way too malty. Thinking of using the same hop combo and Braufessor's grain bill. Thoughts on this combo?

 

[Gustatorian]

I can't say I agree. Commercial cans that I get fall off a lot faster, and this doesn't surprise me based on how much O2 the beer is exposed to during canning. You can do a lot better on the homebrew scale going into kegs if you're careful. After reading your post again, I'm not sure if you're talking about commercial cans or kegs.

On a homebrew level, the cold-storage in keg, and subsequently the beer tasting the best 10-14 days out, is akin to what commercial brewers see in their brites. Most will cold crash in their fermentors, transfer to brites for 1-2 weeks, then serve.

 

[shoreman]

That's what I do, I ferment 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon corny with a spunding valve and a floating dip tube. After 9 days I jump to a water purged 3 gallon corny, never touches O2 and the beer is already carbonated. Jumping beer to the new keg take about 5 mins. Repeat every 3-4 weeks as needed.

That’s an interesting process-thanks.

 

[hezagenius]

That's what I do, I ferment 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon corny with a spunding valve and a floating dip tube. After 9 days I jump to a water purged 3 gallon corny, never touches O2 and the beer is already carbonated. Jumping beer to the new keg take about 5 mins. Repeat every 3-4 weeks as needed.

Do you put the spunding valve on right at the beginning?
What psi do you set it to?
Do you leave it at that psi the entire time?

 

[jakturner]

Do you put the spunding valve on right at the beginning?
What psi do you set it to?
Do you leave it at that psi the entire time?

I've done 4 brews with the spunding so my experience is somewhat limited (I use to just cap fermenter on day 5-6 when fermentation was winding down). I tried 2 brews where I had it on the whole time and 2 brews where I attached the spunding on day 2 when I dry hopped. Not a huge difference between the two, but waiting for 2 days to spund lets more of the yeast profile shine threw, so that's my preference. As for pressure, I start with 8-10psi then I crank it down to 25psi when I see that the pressure starts to drop slowly and I don't hear air hissing out the valve usually around day 4-5. On day 9-11 I remove the spunding and put it in fridge for 24 hrs to crash out hops, then jump to the serving keg. I attach the spunding to receiving keg and set to about 2 psi to create a back pressure so the beer does not foam up when transferring. In the fermentation keg I use the clear beer floating dip tube with a screen over the pick up, no clogged poppets, no particles in the beer, usually lose less than 1/2 gallon of beer. I came up with the system out of pure frustration of clogged closed transfers, but only having 3 gallons works out good for me since it takes my 3-4 weeks to drink it (got three other taps going).

 

[cheesebach]

I've done 4 brews with the spunding so my experience is somewhat limited (I use to just cap fermenter on day 5-6 when fermentation was winding down). I tried 2 brews where I had it on the whole time and 2 brews where I attached the spunding on day 2 when I dry hopped. Not a huge difference between the two, but waiting for 2 days to spund lets more of the yeast profile shine threw, so that's my preference. As for pressure, I start with 8-10psi then I crank it down to 25psi when I see that the pressure starts to drop slowly and I don't hear air hissing out the valve usually around day 4-5. On day 9-11 I remove the spunding and put it in fridge for 24 hrs to crash out hops, then jump to the serving keg. I attach the spunding to receiving keg and set to about 2 psi to create a back pressure so the beer does not foam up when transferring. In the fermentation keg I use the clear beer floating dip tube with a screen over the pick up, no clogged poppets, no particles in the beer, usually lose less than 1/2 gallon of beer. I came up with the system out of pure frustration of clogged closed transfers, but only having 3 gallons works out good for me since it takes my 3-4 weeks to drink it (got three other taps going).

I've been following basically the same process, and i'ts been working quite well for my last 5 NEIPAs. The main difference is that I just use a shortened dip tube instead of the floating dip tube. I tried the floating dip tube once, and decided it was a little more effort to clean and didn't result in more beer or cleaner beer for me. I bought a couple straight dip tubes from Austin Homebrew for like $6 each and have one that I use for standard beers (an inch or so longer, leaves behind ~0.3gal in the keg) and another that I use for dry hopped beers (leaves behind just shy of 0.5gal).

If I do a batch over 4 gallons, I'll put the spunding valve on from the start and set it to 4-5psi until fermentation is winding down. The pressure keeps the krausen from building up too high. Otherwise, I attach a blow of tube (mostly just to monitor how active the fermentation is) and switch it to a spunding valve when i add my dry hops. After fermentation, I cold crash and transfer to a pressurized water purged keg using gravity.

Going this route, nothing inside the fermenter keg is moving so nothing can get stirred up accidentally, and I get clean beer over to serving keg with no clogged keg posts. I also like to brew 6 gal batches and split them between 2 fermenter kegs to compare yeasts, dry hops, etc.

 

[hezagenius]

@jakturner
Sounds similar to my setup. I put the spunding on the fermenter on Day 2 after dry hopping. I usually set it around 7 psi. When I transfer, I put the spunding valve on the receiving keg as well. I have a filter on my diptube in the fermenter now and have yet to have any issues with clogging. And I use the Clear Beer system. Sometimes I use the screen on the Clear Beer, sometimes I don't. I'm trying to focus on dry hopping in the fermenter only so I shouldn't need the filter in the serving keg.

I've been curious about trying the spunding valve right away. I've read that the head pressure, if high enough, can negatively impact the yeast during fermentation.

 

[kevink]

Are you guys noticing any difference in flavor from fermenting under pressure?

 

[cheesebach]

I've been curious about trying the spunding valve right away. I've read that the head pressure, if high enough, can negatively impact the yeast during fermentation.

There is a lot more pressure on the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter at a commercial brewery just due to their size than from any reasonable pressure we'd apply to the head space during fermentation at the homebrew scale. So I don't think there's any need to worry about yeast health due to this. It's possible that it could have some impact on ester production, but the effect at 5psi is likely trivial. I have found that 3-5 psi does help to keep the krausen from building up as high as it usually would though.

Someone posed the question earlier in this thread about whether the beer being carbonated before cold crashing would possibly contribute to this "hop burn" that has been a hot topic lately. I don't know why it would, but I have had the burn in one batch that I've done this way, and since I was spunding, it was carbonated before cold crashing. It's not the first thing I plan to experiment with to figure out what causes it, but its on my list to test at some point in the future.

 

[cheesebach]

Are you guys noticing any difference in flavor from fermenting under pressure?

None yet, but I'm keeping pressure low (~2-3psi) during the first 3-4 days of fermentation. This pressure isn't any higher than what a commercial brewery would get just from the liquid pressure.

 

[kevink]

Someone posed the question earlier in this thread about whether the beer being carbonated before cold crashing would possibly contribute to this "hop burn" that has been a hot topic lately.

I doubt it... at least not in my case. None of my beers are carbed before dry hopping, and they all have the burn for around the first two weeks in the keg. I believe it's just from a high concentration of very fine, almost invisible hop particles that are very present in the beginning pours of the keg. When things settle out in the keg they end up at the bottom, and that is exactly where most kegs pull the beer from.

In support of this, when I take gravity samples, they always have the burn. Running the sample through a paper coffee filter usually takes away 80-90% of the burn, so I'm convinced, for now, that it's caused by particles.

 

[hezagenius]

Speaking from my experience only, I notice the burn when I do really big dry hops. On my latest, I did a 14oz dry hop for 5 gallons on Day 2 and there is still some burn to it after being in the keg for over a month. My next batch, I'm going to really tone down the dry hops to maybe 6oz and see how that goes.

 

[cheesebach]

I doubt it... at least not in my case. None of my beers are carbed before dry hopping, and they all have the burn for around the first two weeks in the keg. I believe it's just from a high concentration of very fine, almost invisible hop particles that are very present in the beginning pours of the keg. When things settle out in the keg they end up at the bottom, and that is exactly where most kegs pull the beer from.

It could certainly be from microscopic hop particles, but there is some mechanism that is keeping them in suspension long-term in some of these beers for whatever reason. The batch that had it for me was a split batch between 1318 vs. Conan - the 1318 batch had it and the Conan didn't. In the 1318 batch, the hop burn persisted for 6 weeks in the keg until it kicked. Didn't matter if it was the first pour of the day or the third. Neither beer was carbonated at the time the dry hops were added, but both were carbonated within a few days of when the dry hop was done through natural carbonation with a spunding valve.

 

[kevink]

Speaking from my experience only, I notice the burn when I do really big dry hops. On my latest, I did a 14oz dry hop for 5 gallons on Day 2 and there is still some burn to it after being in the keg for over a month. My next batch, I'm going to really tone down the dry hops to maybe 6oz and see how that goes.

I use more dry hops than that and the burn is only in the very beginning of the keg. Are you crashing? It's possible that you are getting way to many particles in the keg. Just guessing here.

 

[kevink]

It could certainly be from microscopic hop particles, but there is some mechanism that is keeping them in suspension long-term in some of these beers for whatever reason. The batch that had it for me was a split batch between 1318 vs. Conan - the 1318 batch had it and the Conan didn't. In the 1318 batch, the hop burn persisted for 6 weeks in the keg until it kicked. Didn't matter if it was the first pour of the day or the third. Neither beer was carbonated at the time the dry hops were added, but both were carbonated within a few days of when the dry hop was done through natural carbonation with a spunding valve.

Do you think the Conan flocced more and took more burn/particles with it? I always use 1318 and have never had the burn last that long and I massively dry hop. Maybe it's just a combination of different factors.

 

[hezagenius]

I use more dry hops than that and the burn is only in the very beginning of the keg. Are you crashing? It's possible that you are getting way to many particles in the keg. Just guessing here.

I don't crash before I rack to the keg, but I use the Clear Beer system so I shouldn't be pulling in anything that has dropped out from cold temps.

 

[kevink]

I don't crash before I rack to the keg, but I use the Clear Beer system so I shouldn't be pulling in anything that has dropped out from cold temps.

Are you crashing at serving temps or colder?

 

[cheesebach]

Do you think the Conan flocced more and took more burn/particles with it? I always use 1318 and have never had the burn last that long and I massively dry hop. Maybe it's just a combination of different factors.

Suppose it’s possible, but generally, 1318 is supposed to have higher flocculation than Conan. For whatever reason, 1318 seems to be the mostly likely yeast of the ones commonly used in this style to give the burn based on the anecdotal reports in this thread. Could just be it’s also the most frequently used though. Probably a tricky combination of factors or breweries like Trillium would have figured it out by now.

 

[kevink]

Suppose it’s possible, but generally, 1318 is supposed to have higher flocculation than Conan. For whatever reason, 1318 seems to be the mostly likely yeast of the ones commonly used in this style to give the burn based on the anecdotal reports in this thread. Could just be it’s also the most frequently used though. Probably a tricky combination of factors or breweries like Trillium would have figured it out by now.

Yeah, some of their beers are just not good before the burn goes away. An example of the tricky combination of factors is Tired Hands. They brewed two or three IPAs with Mango and they had terrible burn! None of their other beers have it, and I try almost all of them! I love damn near everything Tired Hands brews, by the way, just not those few beers. Maybe it was just some weird combination of the mango and whatever else he usually does.

 

[TimmyWit]

I think the burn is a combination of 4 factors:

- Dry hop timing
- Mash temps
- Yeast selection
- Sensitivity to "the burn"

I listened to the Brew Strong episode on NE IPA's yesterday. Jamil insists that you can't dry hop early because it will result in an "unpleasant bitterness" based on an experiment they did at Heretic. It seems that is not true as many folks in this thread have had great success with early dry hopping. However, Jamil also insists that you have to mash high. I reported a while back that I experienced what I would call an unpleasant bitterness when I mashed at 157F. It seems that the viscosity might be keeping something in suspension. Some folks have reported splitting a batch between different yeasts - 1 batch had it, the other didn't. I posted this a few pages ago but it seems like increased polyphenols due to the bioconversion of dry hopping early is a likely culprit:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

That said, maybe some strains are kicking out more polyphenols than others?

Maybe the safest way to avoid it is to mash on the lower end and dry hop a little later.

 

[kevink]

Jamil... lol. I didn't think he knew anything about NE IPAs. I would take his advice with a grain of salt.

 

[TimmyWit]

Jamil... lol. I didn't think he knew anything about NE IPAs. I would take his advice with a grain of salt.

And that's exactly what I posted. Clearly his claim that you can't dry hop early is false. However, the fact that he is mashing high caught my attention because I posted a while back that I suspected mash temps of being a factor in the burn.