New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[stickyfinger]

That's exactly what I experience. Only sometimes, and only after several days to a week in the keg. At first, it's awesome, but over several days the hop brilliance gives way to diacetyl. Even when given a lengthy secondary time (but below 70f)

I'm sure you tasted it when you kegged it each time, right? And it tasted good? That was my experience each time. For some reason, the conversion of the precursors to diacetyl is slower in dry hopped IPAs. It's like the heavy dry hop is being oxidized preferentially to the precursors or something.

In my last batch I gave it an extended conditioning time, and raised the temp to over 70, and ended up with the yeast burn flavor big time.

When I've gotten the burn, it was usually b/c it was a particular type or lot of hop that was ver heavily used in dry hop, and it just needed a little time to smoothen out in flavor. Yeast could have something to do with it though. 1318 in particular hangs around for a long time, and may contribute to the burn by being suspended longer. I'm sure another more flocculant strain would work better for you if you don't want to wait or if the burn really bothers you a lot.

I am wondering if both have to do with the dry hop timing/temp. One theory I have read is that the dry hops introduce enzymes that break some of the unfermentable sugars into simpler fermentable ones. Then the yeast starts working on it, creating diacetyl precursors. If you don;t give the yeast time after dry hopping, then it won;t be able to clean up, and you will get diacetyl.

yeah, i've heard that too. seems possible. seems a little odd that the yeast wouldn't just eat up the sugars without needing to produce more diacetyl precursors though. i would have thought they would do that mostly when they are in growth phase.

If that's true, it seems like you need to either dry hop quickly and cold crash it so the yeast does not get to work on the sugars, or give a long enough dry hop so it can clean up afterwards. Just thinking out loud here.

i don't think the dry hop quickly and cold crash is a great idea, as the oxygen in the hops can result in the precursors converting into diacetyl. However, in practice, I have been doing almost exclusively dry hopping during active fermentation, and that has been leading to diacetyl problems for me as well from time to time. I think ideally, allowing the yeast to clean up is the key, but why is it taking so long for the precursors to convert to diacetyl? I've also had the situation where I had a ton of precursors, let it rest another 7-10 days, and then it was a diacetyl bomb! The yeast had basically given up by the time the precursors were oxidized! I am now krausening that with some fermenting wort to clean it up in the hopes of saving the beer.

I have been lax on my oxygenation practices for a long time, and I just corrected that by giving my last beer a good 2.5 minutes of heavy O2 flow before setting it to ferment. I am hoping that will maybe result in fewer diacetyl precursors maybe. I'm also thinking of getting some valine supplements to see if that will reduce the precursors.

It could also be a lactobacillus or pedio infection in my brewery. I guess I should bleach or iodophor everything (after having used Star San forever now.) I've always milled and brewed and racked beers in the same basement though. Why does it just start now after 9 years in this house?

 

[stickyfinger]

I'm also starting to question the predictability of 1318. I've previously used it several times and it's finished out quickly and tasted consistent every time. The last two times I've used it, it's been very slow. I attributed the first time to potentially under pitching and using 8th gen yeast. This combined with crashing before the yeast had time to clean up, lent me to believe these caused a horrible band aid taste in the beer. Now I'm not so sure.

The most recent attempt was a 5.5% beer with a fresh batch of 1318. I made an 1800ml starter, more than enough, and after two weeks, it's still actively fermenting. The first week was at 67 degrees, dry hopped on day 8 and bumped it to 73 after that. I haven't tasted it or measured gravity yet because I didn't want to introduce any unnecessary oxygen, but I guess I'm going to have to. I may have to mark 1318 as one of those strains that I'm going to have to baby sit. It's really throwing off my preferred dry hopping schedule for sure.

I've used 1318 quite a few times now, almost always on very hoppy IPAs. I have noticed several times that I don't really like the beer super well right away. Sometimes it is great right out of the shoot, but a lot of the time I start drinking it, especially on a split batch using 2 yeast strains, and think that it is definitely inferior. Then, after like 1-3 weeks in the keg, the 1318 beer actually starts tasting damn good and probably as good as the other split batch that is now probably almost gone. So, I guess I've resigned myself to just expecting to let the beer age a bit when I use 1318. I've been able to keep a great hoppy flavor for several weeks by cutting back on my oxygen exposure throughout the entire process.

 

[jakturner]

Just wanted to throw this out there for any lurking extract brewers. I rarely brew with extract but I just had a baby and being limited on time I threw this together with supplies I had laying around. It actually turned out pretty damn good. I used muntons wheat dme and us-05, us-04 would be a better choice but the us-05 is what I had on hand. Brew day was 1 hour start to finish!

 

[EndOfLine]

Just wanted to throw this out there for any lurking extract brewers. I rarely brew with extract but I just had a baby and being limited on time I threw this together with supplies I had laying around. It actually turned out pretty damn good. I used muntons wheat dme and us-05, us-04 would be a better choice but the us-05 is what I had on hand. Brew day was 1 hour start to finish!

Looks great! I have done this style a few times with extract for fun. They all came out delicious. Did you use 6 pounds of wheat dme? Any steeping grain?

 

[centrical]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way. Could be yeast or hop particles I guess. Tomorrow I will rack it into a clean keg and carb it up and see if it's good. (I hope I didn't oxidize it screwing around with it this much.)

 

[jakturner]

Looks great! I have done this style a few times with extract for fun. They all came out delicious. Did you use 6 pounds of wheat dme? Any steeping grain?

No steeping grains used, just 4 lbs of wheat dme and 8 oz table sugar (3 gal batch). OG 1.065 FG 1.014
For 5 gal batch that would be about 6.5 lbs dme and 12 oz sugar. Cheers!

 

[thehaze]

I've used 1318 quite a few times now, almost always on very hoppy IPAs. I have noticed several times that I don't really like the beer super well right away. Sometimes it is great right out of the shoot, but a lot of the time I start drinking it, especially on a split batch using 2 yeast strains, and think that it is definitely inferior. Then, after like 1-3 weeks in the keg, the 1318 beer actually starts tasting damn good and probably as good as the other split batch that is now probably almost gone. So, I guess I've resigned myself to just expecting to let the beer age a bit when I use 1318. I've been able to keep a great hoppy flavor for several weeks by cutting back on my oxygen exposure throughout the entire process.

I have brewed with 1318 and the beer was drinkable on day 15. only 4-5 days in the bottle. Superhazy, tropical, smooth, pillowy and soft.

I used Denali, Azacca, El Dorado, Eureka, Mosaic and Amarillo. A fruit bomb and it was good from day 5 of carbonating.

 

[JohnConnor]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way. Could be yeast or hop particles I guess. Tomorrow I will rack it into a clean keg and carb it up and see if it's good. (I hope I didn't oxidize it screwing around with it this much.)

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

 

[MMJfan]

I have brewed with 1318 and the beer was drinkable on day 15. only 4-5 days in the bottle. Superhazy, tropical, smooth, pillowy and soft.

I used Denali, Azacca, El Dorado, Eureka, Mosaic and Amarillo. A fruit bomb and it was good from day 5 of carbonating.

I dry hopped a week ago and I took a sample taste last night because of all of this talk about 1318 (which I used in my recipe) and my sample was delicious. First time trying a NE style IPA and I have to say this one turned out great! Bottling this weekend and I can't wait until it's conditioned!!!

 

[HOPME]

Wow, this has turned into the 1318 thread. hahaha

Pretty much my go to yeast for my beers. I've experienced 'burn' once from 1318, but it was from the hops. Massive mount of hops. After 2 pints, smooth as can be. I have also used 1056 just to see if I could get it hazy. Yup, it worked. Also had a burn, but again, crazy amount of dry hops which made it into the keg. After a few pours, juicy and smooth.

I just kegged another IPA with 1318, roughly 12 oz of hops in total. Broke in a new ss brew bucket so not much hop debris made it in the keg at all. Will try first pour Sun and see if any noticeable burn.

 

[cheesebach]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way.

That's great to know - did the gelatin fining affect the hop flavor/aroma or the "haze" in any significant way for you?

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

I'm not sure whether the "burn" is actually coming from the yeast, hops, or something else. However, I believe that the yeast and/or fermentation conditions play a strong role. I keg, and in the split batch I did between conan and 1318 the burn was present in the 1318 batch until the keg kicked 6 or so weeks after kegging. Another member @ttuato posted a similar result here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8090906&postcount=4828

With this style, I'm not sure how to tell whether there is suspended yeast present or not - it hazy, so something is obviously there. Whether its proteins, yeast, hops, etc. how can we tell?

Wow, this has turned into the 1318 thread. hahaha

It does seem like it's kind of taken off in that direction, but I view it more as a possible off-flavor with this style. I'm sure that there are other yeasts that could create this "burn" in a NEIPA, just as I'm sure it's possible to avoid it when using 1318. The fact that many here use it as their go-to for the style and that it can be detected in some Trillium beers and not others seems to suggest that there is some set of fermentation/dry-hop conditions that produce it that we just need to identify and learn to avoid.

 

[EndOfLine]

The flocculation of the yeast you use, and how early you add dry hops (for example, high krausen) will determine how many small hop flakes you have In solution. The hop bits will def cause a burn/green/grass flavor that will go away will cold conditioning/finings.

I find that a high flocking yeast. Such as 002 (fullers) will flock with a lot of the hop debris

 

[cheesebach]

The flocculation of the yeast you use, and how early you add dry hops (for example, high krausen) will determine how many small hop flakes you have In solution. The hop bits will def cause a burn/green/grass flavor that will go away will cold conditioning/finings.

I find that a high flocking yeast. Such as 002 (fullers) will flock with a lot of the hop debris

I'm not sure that the flocculation properties of the yeast are a contributing factor - 1318 is one of the more flocculant yeasts people are using in this style.

The timing of the dry hop could certainly be a factor - I'm thinking a split batch using 1318 and differently timed dry hop additions would be interesting. Also, I'm wondering if the top-cropping aspect of 1318 may play a role, since dry hops like to float at the top for the first few days.

 

[centrical]

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

I keg it. If I make a batch with the burn, I've given it a few weeks in the fridge, and it does not seem to get a while lot better. It could be the amount r type/batch of hops - IDK. But recently I fined it with gelatin, and that seems to help a lot. So does that indicate it might be hop material in suspension rather than yeast?

 

[jjw5015]

Ever eat a hop pellet? It's got a burn to it. In my experience excessive hop matter in suspension will give you the burn

 

[centrical]

That's great to know - did the gelatin fining affect the hop flavor/aroma or the "haze" in any significant way for you?

It made it somewhat more clear, but it is still attractively hazy . It did not seem to affect the taste though - other than remove the burn taste. still smells great. But keep in mind I did not carb it up yet, I'm doing that now so I will report back in a couple days.

I'm sure that there are other yeasts that could create this "burn" in a NEIPA, just as I'm sure it's possible to avoid it when using 1318. The fact that many here use it as their go-to for the style and that it can be detected in some Trillium beers and not others seems to suggest that there is some set of fermentation/dry-hop conditions that produce it that we just need to identify and learn to avoid.

Yes - I also got the burn using 1098 one time (the only time I used 1098). It was even worse than the 1318 I split batched. I definitely taste a burn in some Trillium beers, but others are super clean. Make me wonder why they don;t remove it from all of their beers. Is it due to large amount of dry hops like you say, and they are willing to live with it for that? Is it the type of hop?

 

[GnenieGone]

Brewing next NEIPA! But drunk and watching ****ty college football..so much for notes.

 

[ttuato]

Thanks Braufessor!

Gold medal in my first competition (Chattanooga) using a slightly modified version of your recipe (all Golden promise instead of 2-row & higher ABV), Conan yeast, 1/2oz Columbus bittering, Citra : Denali - 2:1 both whirlpools & dryhops

Trust me folks - Denali is the next Mosaic. BTW - my prior was Galaxy : Denali - 2:1; Much better than Citra : Denali. Up next Denali : Vic Secret 2:1....

:rockin:

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks Braufessor!

Gold medal in my first competition (Chattanooga) using a slightly modified version of your recipe (all Golden promise instead of 2-row & higher ABV), Conan yeast, 1/2oz Columbus bittering, Citra : Denali - 2:1 both whirlpools & dryhops

Trust me folks - Denali is the next Mosaic. BTW - my prior was Galaxy : Denali - 2:1; Much better than Citra : Denali. Up next Denali : Vic Secret 2:1....

:rockin:

Nice work!! I like Denali a lot but usually use it as a supporting cast member. It is SO pungent on the pineapple character. Great hop though; you are absolutely right. I think a dank hop-denali would work well.

 

[leesmith]

My latest attempt at a NEIPA style highlighting Galaxy:
http://www.laundrybrewing.com/2017/09/emily-once-again.html

I've gotten the burn mentioned in posts above...to me it has to do with recipe. A lot of hops, types of hops, too green....I mean raw hops are harsh....these recipes walk that fine line between too much and just enough. I associate the "pithy" description with this "burn" description...."burn" is when "pithy" goes too far?

 

[phyllobeddo]

After brewing 66 AG batches since 2014, on a whim I brewed an extract batch a couple of weeks ago.* It was kinda nice, actually.* No need to run my mill, no water chemistry additions, no mash, etc.* I have four kids and time is a premium. It was a simple Helles using Hersbrucker hops that had been stored in the freezer for a while.* 3# of Pils DME with no steeping grains.* I haven't tasted it yet, but that got me thinking about trying an extract batch for a NE IPA.* (oh the horror!)
*
Would something like the following work for an extract batch?
*
2.5 Gallon batch
*
3.5# Wheat DME
8 oz Flaked oats (steep)
2 oz Honey malt (steep)
*
Pour 3.25 Gallons RO into BK and add oats and honey malt to steep until water reaches ~155 to 160 degrees.* Pull oats and honey malt and mix in DME.* Bring to a boil and boil for 30 minutes.* No boil hops.* At flameout add whirlpool hops and soak for 3-5 minutes.* Drop temp to 175 and steep an additional 30 to 45 minutes.* Cool to ~70 and then pour it up and pitch yeast.* Dry hop like normal.

 

[stickyfinger]

flaked oats need to be mashed

 

[jakturner]

I posted a couple pages back about an extract brew I made, turned out pretty good. All wheat dme+plus some natural carbing via spunding valve made a pretty creamy beer. I was surprised. I didn't even boil for 30 mins, I just brought it to boil for 5 mins to sterilize every thing. Threw in the FO hops and whirlpooled for 30 mins. Got plenty of bitterness from that. Give it a try, the high amount of wheat in the dme (55% I think) boost the mouthfeel.

 

[EndOfLine]

I want to echo what had already been said. Yes you can make an extract NE IPA, and yes it does taste good! I have done a few, also because of time constraints. For a 6 gallon batch I have used 6lbs of DME with 6-7 gallons of RO water.

However I have not tried one with wheat dme. That will be on my to do list.

 

[slym2none]

LAZY EXTRACT BREWERS UNITE!

 

[jakturner]

LAZY EXTRACT BREWERS UNITE!

Power to the proletariat!

I ended up buying like 15 lbs of wheat dme from homebrewsupply.com when they were selling off there back stock of supplies for 40% off. I use it to make quick sour berliners, goses and the like. But I always stick to all grain with with IPAs and stouts. But I'll definitely use some to make another batch of NEIPA, I just grew up a big starter of F1-C4 yeast (wlp644+Conan hybrid from HBT user Suregork) I'll post results

 

[fourfarthing]

On the yeast coversation; 1318 floccs hard, but it floccs fast, so it doesn't always drag down all of the hop matter, which is also (I believe) why all of the hop oils find protein friends to stick around on to make it to our mouths.

I have had success using a 50/50 1318/Conan to 'clean up' some of that residual dry hop sharpness.

 

[phyllobeddo]

I posted a couple pages back about an extract brew I made, turned out pretty good. All wheat dme+plus some natural carbing via spunding valve made a pretty creamy beer. I was surprised. I didn't even boil for 30 mins, I just brought it to boil for 5 mins to sterilize every thing. Threw in the FO hops and whirlpooled for 30 mins. Got plenty of bitterness from that. Give it a try, the high amount of wheat in the dme (55% I think) boost the mouthfeel.

Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh boy! Five minute boil time! That sounds like a phenomenal idea. Seems I need to ditch the flaked oats and honey malt idea or do a mini mash. I'll omit a mini mash for now. So maybe ~2.6 gallons RO, 3.5# wheat DME, five minute boil then whirlpool hops then cool to 175 and soak for 30-45 minutes. Gots to try it!

Flameout hops (Drop in @ flameout and soak for ~3-5 minutes then cool to 175 and soak for 30-45 minutes)
2 oz Galaxy
2 oz Mosaic
1 oz Citra
*
Dry Hop (4-5 days before kegging)
2 oz Galaxy
1 oz Mosaic

Will probably use WLP095 for this one.

 

[LateraLex]

While we are on the subject of cutting corners - how about dry yeast. Has anyone done any side by side comparisons? The liquid yeast with its low shelf life and need for starters is the biggest pain in my brew day (more like brew week).

 

[phyllobeddo]

While we are on the subject of cutting corners - how about dry yeast. Has anyone done any side by side comparisons? The liquid yeast with its low shelf life and need for starters is the biggest pain in my brew day (more like brew week).

My first attempt would/will be S-04. I've used it successfully in the Zombie Dust Clone recipe on here. I just haven't got around to trying S-04 with a NE IPA recipe.

 

[TomRep]

I used S04, one pack rehydrated, and it was the best batch out of four that I did so far. Just used it again on one on Tuesday and am hoping for the same results.

 

[tld6008]

I also brewed the Braufessors recipe using SO4, I bottle and have been drinking is since the 3rd day.... its amazing! While drinking it I have been struggling with getting a viable pack of wlp 095 to brew the Blonde ale to harvest the yeast for future NEIPAs. On my 3rd attempt I got one that kicked off in the starter. I multiplied it 3 times and pitched it today. Its been eight hours and no action in the carboy yet. The SO4 took off in less than an hour

 

[Northern_Brewer]

While we are on the subject of cutting corners - how about dry yeast. Has anyone done any side by side comparisons? The liquid yeast with its low shelf life and need for starters is the biggest pain in my brew day (more like brew week).

See the thread on here about trying to clone Tree House Julius - it looks like Tree house use a blend of Fermentis dry yeasts as a way of getting a consistent blend of yeast, they seem to be using S-04+WB-06+T-58 in a ratio of something like 83:12:5 and people who've tried a direct comparison reckons that blend compares favourably to 1318.

 

[slym2none]

LAZY EXTRACT BREWERS UNITE!

FTR - I was poking fun at some Adam Henry that called me a lazy extract brewer, even though at that point, I had switched to AG brewing.

Hi, ApplesCrap!

 

[TimmyWit]

The flocculation of the yeast you use, and how early you add dry hops (for example, high krausen) will determine how many small hop flakes you have In solution. The hop bits will def cause a burn/green/grass flavor that will go away will cold conditioning/finings.

I find that a high flocking yeast. Such as 002 (fullers) will flock with a lot of the hop debris

I think you are on to something here. I went from dry hopping on days 5 and 10 on the first batch to days 4 and 7 on the next two batches. I also increased the hops from two 3oz additions to two 4oz additions for the 2nd and 3rd batches. The first batch was clean. The middle batch I picked up a bit of the burn. I would consider it sort of a harsh bitterness. This last batch I am definitely picking up more of it. I am even considering getting one of those inline filters. The first batch I used OYL-057. The third batch was split with (left to right) OYL-057, 1318, S-04.

It also seems like haze retention is directly related to the dry hop timing. The other pic is my first batch that I dry hopped on day 5 and 10 with 3oz each. Still a great looking beer but nowhere near the haze that I got from the second or third batch.

 

[milldoggy]

I think you are on to something here. I went from dry hopping on days 5 and 10 on the first batch to days 4 and 7 on the next two batches. I also increased the hops from two 3oz additions to two 4oz additions for the 2nd and 3rd batches. The first batch was clean. The middle batch I picked up a bit of the burn. I would consider it sort of a harsh bitterness. This last batch I am definitely picking up more of it. I am even considering getting one of those inline filters. The first batch I used OYL-057. The third batch was split with (left to right) OYL-057, 1318, S-04.

It also seems like haze retention is directly related to the dry hop timing. The other pic is my first batch that I dry hopped on day 5 and 10 with 3oz each. Still a great looking beer but nowhere near the haze that I got from the second or third batch.

I have an inline filter and tested it on a non dry hopped batch to work any kinks out. Found to bleed the air out of it, you need to run it opposite from what they tell you. Have a NEIPA in the conical now, will post results, it will have 10oz in the dry hop(10g).

 

[centrical]

I think you are on to something here. I went from dry hopping on days 5 and 10 on the first batch to days 4 and 7 on the next two batches. I also increased the hops from two 3oz additions to two 4oz additions for the 2nd and 3rd batches. The first batch was clean. The middle batch I picked up a bit of the burn. I would consider it sort of a harsh bitterness. This last batch I am definitely picking up more of it.

So let me get this straight - you are theorizing that you get less burn (due to less suspended hops) if you dry hop *later*? And how long do you leave the dry hops in - say if you hop at day 10?

 

[duelerx]

Guys something is coming up from Lallemand.

 

[TimmyWit]

So let me get this straight - you are theorizing that you get less burn (due to less suspended hops) if you dry hop *later*? And how long do you leave the dry hops in - say if you hop at day 10?

Yes, that has been my observation over 3 batches. But it will take someone smarter than me to explain if there is a scientific reason if/why this would be possible. My theory is that something happens during an active fermentation that alters the hop matter making it more buoyant. The less fermentation activity the dry hops have to deal with, the less buoyant they become.

The dry hop I did on day 10 was transferred to the serving kegs on day 14. The dry hop that was added on day 7 was transferred to the serving kegs on day 10.

With that first batch that ended up being the least hazy and cleanest, the first couple pours were the haziest of any batch; downright murky actually. That also seems to support the theory that something was dropping out of that batch for some reason that is not dropping out of the other two. For reference, I added that other pic again. That is the exact same batch, just a few pours and a week or so later.

The only other significant variable is that I used flaked wheat with the first batch, flaked oats with the second, and a combination of the two for the third batch.

 

[isomerization]

Guys something is coming up from Lallemand.

I would guess that is the dry yeast equivalent to Conan that was hinted at in the TH yeast thread!!