New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[centrical]

The last batch was 1318. 2 week fermentation/rest and a couple degrees higher then usual for me at 67. No diacetyl, which has been an issue foe me this year. I bought another batch but probably wont get to it for a while.

PianoMan - what was your dry hop schedule? How long did it sit on hops?
You had no astringent yeast taste nor diacetyl?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

PianoMan - what was your dry hop schedule? How long did it sit on hops?
You had no astringent yeast taste nor diacetyl?

Definitely no diacetyl. Maybe a bit cloromine..phenol?? But thats a different issue I think. If you look back a while, I explain my technique and foul ups. Basiclly only had the Cryo Hops in for 10min.

 

[centrical]

So PianoMan, looking back you seem to have had diacetyl issue with this beer when you kegged it. But then did you switch to bottling to avoid it? (My theory would be that the yeast in the bottle eats the diacetyl when carbing).


So has anyone else figured out how to avoid diacetyl with 1318 when kegging? I would assume a diacetyl rest at 70f or above after fermentation - but when I do that I tend to get the yeast burn/bite. Does anyone have a sure fire fermentation/dryhop temp/time schedule for 1318 to avoid both?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

So PianoMan, looking back you seem to have had diacetyl issue with this beer when you kegged it. But then did you switch to bottling to avoid it? (My theory would be that the yeast in the bottle eats the diacetyl when carbing).


So has anyone else figured out how to avoid diacetyl with 1318 when kegging? I would assume a diacetyl rest at 70f or above after fermentation - but when I do that I tend to get the yeast burn/bite. Does anyone have a sure fire fermentation/dryhop temp/time schedule for 1318 to avoid both?

No. I bottled on the beginning, switched to kegging. Keggorator died then started bottling again. I sample 100% pre secondary or bottling (kegging). NEVER detected diacetyl. Only IPAs, only post kegging and after 4 days or so and not everytime. Lengthy discussion on the subject here also.

 

[mintyice]

So PianoMan, looking back you seem to have had diacetyl issue with this beer when you kegged it. But then did you switch to bottling to avoid it? (My theory would be that the yeast in the bottle eats the diacetyl when carbing).


So has anyone else figured out how to avoid diacetyl with 1318 when kegging? I would assume a diacetyl rest at 70f or above after fermentation - but when I do that I tend to get the yeast burn/bite. Does anyone have a sure fire fermentation/dryhop temp/time schedule for 1318 to avoid both?

Ferment longer? Never had a diacetyl problem with 1318.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Y'all are going to make me brew...wasn't planning to. Possibly friday or Saturday. I'll keep detailed notes and report back in a few weeks.

 

[stickyfinger]

Ferment longer? Never had a diacetyl problem with 1318.

I've left some of my super hoppy ipas for a month, and they still had diacetyl precursors. I am suffering mightily from diacetyl right now as well, but am doing some testing to see if I can get rid of it better.

I would LOVE it if people would do me a favor and test some of their fermented, dry-hopped IPA at racking for diacety precursors. I am curious if most people are free from precursor or are just kegging with precursor and making it long enough that diacetyl doesn't show up or maybe having yeast chew it up even at cold temps. All you have to do is save a little bit of wort in a container and put plastic wrap on it. put it into a hot water bath at like 140-160F (i use 160ish usually) for 20 minutes. take it out and chill it down a bit and take a whiff. Do you smell diacetyl or not, lots or not much? This would help me gather information about what is going on with me!!! Thanks!

 

[centrical]

Only IPAs, only post kegging and after 4 days or so and not everytime.

That's exactly what I experience. Only sometimes, and only after several days to a week in the keg. At first, it's awesome, but over several days the hop brilliance gives way to diacetyl. Even when given a lengthy secondary time (but below 70f)


In my last batch I gave it an extended conditioning time, and raised the temp to over 70, and ended up with the yeast burn flavor big time.

I am wondering if both have to do with the dry hop timing/temp. One theory I have read is that the dry hops introduce enzymes that break some of the unfermentable sugars into simpler fermentable ones. Then the yeast starts working on it, creating diacetyl precursors. If you don;t give the yeast time after dry hopping, then it won;t be able to clean up, and you will get diacetyl.

If that's true, it seems like you need to either dry hop quickly and cold crash it so the yeast does not get to work on the sugars, or give a long enough dry hop so it can clean up afterwards. Just thinking out loud here.

I suppose one could take a SG reading before dry hopping, and after to see if the gravity changes. Also, I suppose introducing most of the dry hops during active fermentation would help.

 

[centrical]

duplicate

 

[Mordhaus]

I'm also starting to question the predictability of 1318. I've previously used it several times and it's finished out quickly and tasted consistent every time. The last two times I've used it, it's been very slow. I attributed the first time to potentially under pitching and using 8th gen yeast. This combined with crashing before the yeast had time to clean up, lent me to believe these caused a horrible band aid taste in the beer. Now I'm not so sure.

The most recent attempt was a 5.5% beer with a fresh batch of 1318. I made an 1800ml starter, more than enough, and after two weeks, it's still actively fermenting. The first week was at 67 degrees, dry hopped on day 8 and bumped it to 73 after that. I haven't tasted it or measured gravity yet because I didn't want to introduce any unnecessary oxygen, but I guess I'm going to have to. I may have to mark 1318 as one of those strains that I'm going to have to baby sit. It's really throwing off my preferred dry hopping schedule for sure.

 

[stickyfinger]

That's exactly what I experience. Only sometimes, and only after several days to a week in the keg. At first, it's awesome, but over several days the hop brilliance gives way to diacetyl. Even when given a lengthy secondary time (but below 70f)

I'm sure you tasted it when you kegged it each time, right? And it tasted good? That was my experience each time. For some reason, the conversion of the precursors to diacetyl is slower in dry hopped IPAs. It's like the heavy dry hop is being oxidized preferentially to the precursors or something.

In my last batch I gave it an extended conditioning time, and raised the temp to over 70, and ended up with the yeast burn flavor big time.

When I've gotten the burn, it was usually b/c it was a particular type or lot of hop that was ver heavily used in dry hop, and it just needed a little time to smoothen out in flavor. Yeast could have something to do with it though. 1318 in particular hangs around for a long time, and may contribute to the burn by being suspended longer. I'm sure another more flocculant strain would work better for you if you don't want to wait or if the burn really bothers you a lot.

I am wondering if both have to do with the dry hop timing/temp. One theory I have read is that the dry hops introduce enzymes that break some of the unfermentable sugars into simpler fermentable ones. Then the yeast starts working on it, creating diacetyl precursors. If you don;t give the yeast time after dry hopping, then it won;t be able to clean up, and you will get diacetyl.

yeah, i've heard that too. seems possible. seems a little odd that the yeast wouldn't just eat up the sugars without needing to produce more diacetyl precursors though. i would have thought they would do that mostly when they are in growth phase.

If that's true, it seems like you need to either dry hop quickly and cold crash it so the yeast does not get to work on the sugars, or give a long enough dry hop so it can clean up afterwards. Just thinking out loud here.

i don't think the dry hop quickly and cold crash is a great idea, as the oxygen in the hops can result in the precursors converting into diacetyl. However, in practice, I have been doing almost exclusively dry hopping during active fermentation, and that has been leading to diacetyl problems for me as well from time to time. I think ideally, allowing the yeast to clean up is the key, but why is it taking so long for the precursors to convert to diacetyl? I've also had the situation where I had a ton of precursors, let it rest another 7-10 days, and then it was a diacetyl bomb! The yeast had basically given up by the time the precursors were oxidized! I am now krausening that with some fermenting wort to clean it up in the hopes of saving the beer.

I have been lax on my oxygenation practices for a long time, and I just corrected that by giving my last beer a good 2.5 minutes of heavy O2 flow before setting it to ferment. I am hoping that will maybe result in fewer diacetyl precursors maybe. I'm also thinking of getting some valine supplements to see if that will reduce the precursors.

It could also be a lactobacillus or pedio infection in my brewery. I guess I should bleach or iodophor everything (after having used Star San forever now.) I've always milled and brewed and racked beers in the same basement though. Why does it just start now after 9 years in this house?

 

[stickyfinger]

I'm also starting to question the predictability of 1318. I've previously used it several times and it's finished out quickly and tasted consistent every time. The last two times I've used it, it's been very slow. I attributed the first time to potentially under pitching and using 8th gen yeast. This combined with crashing before the yeast had time to clean up, lent me to believe these caused a horrible band aid taste in the beer. Now I'm not so sure.

The most recent attempt was a 5.5% beer with a fresh batch of 1318. I made an 1800ml starter, more than enough, and after two weeks, it's still actively fermenting. The first week was at 67 degrees, dry hopped on day 8 and bumped it to 73 after that. I haven't tasted it or measured gravity yet because I didn't want to introduce any unnecessary oxygen, but I guess I'm going to have to. I may have to mark 1318 as one of those strains that I'm going to have to baby sit. It's really throwing off my preferred dry hopping schedule for sure.

I've used 1318 quite a few times now, almost always on very hoppy IPAs. I have noticed several times that I don't really like the beer super well right away. Sometimes it is great right out of the shoot, but a lot of the time I start drinking it, especially on a split batch using 2 yeast strains, and think that it is definitely inferior. Then, after like 1-3 weeks in the keg, the 1318 beer actually starts tasting damn good and probably as good as the other split batch that is now probably almost gone. So, I guess I've resigned myself to just expecting to let the beer age a bit when I use 1318. I've been able to keep a great hoppy flavor for several weeks by cutting back on my oxygen exposure throughout the entire process.

 

[jakturner]

Just wanted to throw this out there for any lurking extract brewers. I rarely brew with extract but I just had a baby and being limited on time I threw this together with supplies I had laying around. It actually turned out pretty damn good. I used muntons wheat dme and us-05, us-04 would be a better choice but the us-05 is what I had on hand. Brew day was 1 hour start to finish!

 

[EndOfLine]

Just wanted to throw this out there for any lurking extract brewers. I rarely brew with extract but I just had a baby and being limited on time I threw this together with supplies I had laying around. It actually turned out pretty damn good. I used muntons wheat dme and us-05, us-04 would be a better choice but the us-05 is what I had on hand. Brew day was 1 hour start to finish!

Looks great! I have done this style a few times with extract for fun. They all came out delicious. Did you use 6 pounds of wheat dme? Any steeping grain?

 

[centrical]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way. Could be yeast or hop particles I guess. Tomorrow I will rack it into a clean keg and carb it up and see if it's good. (I hope I didn't oxidize it screwing around with it this much.)

 

[jakturner]

Looks great! I have done this style a few times with extract for fun. They all came out delicious. Did you use 6 pounds of wheat dme? Any steeping grain?

No steeping grains used, just 4 lbs of wheat dme and 8 oz table sugar (3 gal batch). OG 1.065 FG 1.014
For 5 gal batch that would be about 6.5 lbs dme and 12 oz sugar. Cheers!

 

[thehaze]

I've used 1318 quite a few times now, almost always on very hoppy IPAs. I have noticed several times that I don't really like the beer super well right away. Sometimes it is great right out of the shoot, but a lot of the time I start drinking it, especially on a split batch using 2 yeast strains, and think that it is definitely inferior. Then, after like 1-3 weeks in the keg, the 1318 beer actually starts tasting damn good and probably as good as the other split batch that is now probably almost gone. So, I guess I've resigned myself to just expecting to let the beer age a bit when I use 1318. I've been able to keep a great hoppy flavor for several weeks by cutting back on my oxygen exposure throughout the entire process.

I have brewed with 1318 and the beer was drinkable on day 15. only 4-5 days in the bottle. Superhazy, tropical, smooth, pillowy and soft.

I used Denali, Azacca, El Dorado, Eureka, Mosaic and Amarillo. A fruit bomb and it was good from day 5 of carbonating.

 

[JohnConnor]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way. Could be yeast or hop particles I guess. Tomorrow I will rack it into a clean keg and carb it up and see if it's good. (I hope I didn't oxidize it screwing around with it this much.)

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

 

[MMJfan]

I have brewed with 1318 and the beer was drinkable on day 15. only 4-5 days in the bottle. Superhazy, tropical, smooth, pillowy and soft.

I used Denali, Azacca, El Dorado, Eureka, Mosaic and Amarillo. A fruit bomb and it was good from day 5 of carbonating.

I dry hopped a week ago and I took a sample taste last night because of all of this talk about 1318 (which I used in my recipe) and my sample was delicious. First time trying a NE style IPA and I have to say this one turned out great! Bottling this weekend and I can't wait until it's conditioned!!!

 

[HOPME]

Wow, this has turned into the 1318 thread. hahaha

Pretty much my go to yeast for my beers. I've experienced 'burn' once from 1318, but it was from the hops. Massive mount of hops. After 2 pints, smooth as can be. I have also used 1056 just to see if I could get it hazy. Yup, it worked. Also had a burn, but again, crazy amount of dry hops which made it into the keg. After a few pours, juicy and smooth.

I just kegged another IPA with 1318, roughly 12 oz of hops in total. Broke in a new ss brew bucket so not much hop debris made it in the keg at all. Will try first pour Sun and see if any noticeable burn.

 

[cheesebach]

Update on the 1318 yeast burn/bite: I just fined a beer with gelatin that had the yeast burn taste, and it greatly improved after 1 day. I'm not sure what this tells me, or how to avoid it still, but it's nice to know if I can actually filter it out this way.

That's great to know - did the gelatin fining affect the hop flavor/aroma or the "haze" in any significant way for you?

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

I'm not sure whether the "burn" is actually coming from the yeast, hops, or something else. However, I believe that the yeast and/or fermentation conditions play a strong role. I keg, and in the split batch I did between conan and 1318 the burn was present in the 1318 batch until the keg kicked 6 or so weeks after kegging. Another member @ttuato posted a similar result here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8090906&postcount=4828

With this style, I'm not sure how to tell whether there is suspended yeast present or not - it hazy, so something is obviously there. Whether its proteins, yeast, hops, etc. how can we tell?

Wow, this has turned into the 1318 thread. hahaha

It does seem like it's kind of taken off in that direction, but I view it more as a possible off-flavor with this style. I'm sure that there are other yeasts that could create this "burn" in a NEIPA, just as I'm sure it's possible to avoid it when using 1318. The fact that many here use it as their go-to for the style and that it can be detected in some Trillium beers and not others seems to suggest that there is some set of fermentation/dry-hop conditions that produce it that we just need to identify and learn to avoid.

 

[EndOfLine]

The flocculation of the yeast you use, and how early you add dry hops (for example, high krausen) will determine how many small hop flakes you have In solution. The hop bits will def cause a burn/green/grass flavor that will go away will cold conditioning/finings.

I find that a high flocking yeast. Such as 002 (fullers) will flock with a lot of the hop debris

 

[cheesebach]

The flocculation of the yeast you use, and how early you add dry hops (for example, high krausen) will determine how many small hop flakes you have In solution. The hop bits will def cause a burn/green/grass flavor that will go away will cold conditioning/finings.

I find that a high flocking yeast. Such as 002 (fullers) will flock with a lot of the hop debris

I'm not sure that the flocculation properties of the yeast are a contributing factor - 1318 is one of the more flocculant yeasts people are using in this style.

The timing of the dry hop could certainly be a factor - I'm thinking a split batch using 1318 and differently timed dry hop additions would be interesting. Also, I'm wondering if the top-cropping aspect of 1318 may play a role, since dry hops like to float at the top for the first few days.

 

[centrical]

Interesting you get a "burn." I've never perceived a burning from yeast... just a nasty yeasty flavor. I'd think that's hop particles. Are you bottling or kegging? 1318 falls like a rock. I keg. I have about a pint of yeast and random crap from the bottom but after that, it's yeast free.

I keg it. If I make a batch with the burn, I've given it a few weeks in the fridge, and it does not seem to get a while lot better. It could be the amount r type/batch of hops - IDK. But recently I fined it with gelatin, and that seems to help a lot. So does that indicate it might be hop material in suspension rather than yeast?

 

[jjw5015]

Ever eat a hop pellet? It's got a burn to it. In my experience excessive hop matter in suspension will give you the burn

 

[centrical]

That's great to know - did the gelatin fining affect the hop flavor/aroma or the "haze" in any significant way for you?

It made it somewhat more clear, but it is still attractively hazy . It did not seem to affect the taste though - other than remove the burn taste. still smells great. But keep in mind I did not carb it up yet, I'm doing that now so I will report back in a couple days.

I'm sure that there are other yeasts that could create this "burn" in a NEIPA, just as I'm sure it's possible to avoid it when using 1318. The fact that many here use it as their go-to for the style and that it can be detected in some Trillium beers and not others seems to suggest that there is some set of fermentation/dry-hop conditions that produce it that we just need to identify and learn to avoid.

Yes - I also got the burn using 1098 one time (the only time I used 1098). It was even worse than the 1318 I split batched. I definitely taste a burn in some Trillium beers, but others are super clean. Make me wonder why they don;t remove it from all of their beers. Is it due to large amount of dry hops like you say, and they are willing to live with it for that? Is it the type of hop?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Brewing next NEIPA! But drunk and watching ****ty college football..so much for notes.

 

[ttuato]

Thanks Braufessor!

Gold medal in my first competition (Chattanooga) using a slightly modified version of your recipe (all Golden promise instead of 2-row & higher ABV), Conan yeast, 1/2oz Columbus bittering, Citra : Denali - 2:1 both whirlpools & dryhops

Trust me folks - Denali is the next Mosaic. BTW - my prior was Galaxy : Denali - 2:1; Much better than Citra : Denali. Up next Denali : Vic Secret 2:1....

:rockin:

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks Braufessor!

Gold medal in my first competition (Chattanooga) using a slightly modified version of your recipe (all Golden promise instead of 2-row & higher ABV), Conan yeast, 1/2oz Columbus bittering, Citra : Denali - 2:1 both whirlpools & dryhops

Trust me folks - Denali is the next Mosaic. BTW - my prior was Galaxy : Denali - 2:1; Much better than Citra : Denali. Up next Denali : Vic Secret 2:1....

:rockin:

Nice work!! I like Denali a lot but usually use it as a supporting cast member. It is SO pungent on the pineapple character. Great hop though; you are absolutely right. I think a dank hop-denali would work well.

 

[leesmith]

My latest attempt at a NEIPA style highlighting Galaxy:
http://www.laundrybrewing.com/2017/09/emily-once-again.html

I've gotten the burn mentioned in posts above...to me it has to do with recipe. A lot of hops, types of hops, too green....I mean raw hops are harsh....these recipes walk that fine line between too much and just enough. I associate the "pithy" description with this "burn" description...."burn" is when "pithy" goes too far?