No time to make a starter, so....

[seatazzz]

Yesterday was a "surprise" brew day, as I had to wait to see if funds were available. So I didn't have time (or DME, or saved wort) to make starters for the two batches I did. I did however have plenty of washed yeast in the fridge (Nottingham). So, just for the heck of it, here's what I did. Before the boil started I drew off about 1/2 quart of wort and put it in the fridge to chill, and took out the growler of washed yeast I wanted to use to let it get to room temperature. About 30 minutes before chilling I poured off the liquor from the now room temp yeast, and added the cooled wort. Shook it up good and left it with the lid loosened a tad. Pitched the whole thing, aerated well, and put it away. I had done a brew last weekend with the same generation of yeast, using a properly made starter, so I knew the yeast itself was good, but didn't know if I would get too much lag time.

About 4 hours later it had taken off like a champ, no off smells and beautiful krausen. The same for the second batch although it took a bit longer, as I had added raspberries that were pretty cold still. The first batch (Pliny clone) as of this morning has calmed down but I can see a bunch of krauseny goo on the lid so it did well.

My concern now is I may have overpitched, but I'd much rather over- than underpitch. First beer SG is 1.061, second is 1.043. Won't know how well this worked in terms of flavor for a week or two but I'm cautiously optimistic. If it does work, the heck with starters from now on, will just do it this way. I was pitching straight slurry for quite a while but after a couple of not-so-great beers I'm trying to improve yeast health.

 

[JohnSand]

Interesting. I brewed yesterday too. I had planned to pitch dry yeast in 5 gallons and liquid in 3, splitting a 1.064 IPA between two yeasts. I had some trouble filling the carboy with the 3 gallons, and feared it might be contaminated. So I used the cheaper dry in the three, and needed a starter for the five. I did have DME, boiled, cooled overnight. Added liquid yeast to the starter this morning, I'll probably pitch it tomorrow. Meanwhile, the wort is sealed in the bucket waiting yeast. In the past when I planned starters I used a vitality starter, making it the same day and pitching at high krausen.
My only concern about your method is that without a boil you might risk infection. But I think mash temp will kill bugs in an hour, especially if you heated in the kettle after that. Let us know how it works out.

 

[Jwin]

Yeah, you should definitely bring that up to temp a bit. Doesn't have to be much higher than mash temps but 155 for 10 minutes won't get everything.
190 for 2-3 should do as long as other sanitation practices are in order.
I'd advise pulling from the boil after hot break next time.
Hope it all works out for you!

 

[seatazzz]

Thanks for the responses. I'll let the wort get to boil before drawing off next time, although my sanitation is pretty solid and I don't think there will be an issue with infection. The washed yeast was in a sanitized growler, and I used a sanitized heavy glass measuring cup to draw off the wort.

Washed a big batch of yeast today after kegging, can't wait to use it in my next brew(s).

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for the responses. I'll let the wort get to boil before drawing off next time, although my sanitation is pretty solid and I don't think there will be an issue with infection. The washed yeast was in a sanitized growler, and I used a sanitized heavy glass measuring cup to draw off the wort.

Washed a big batch of yeast today after kegging, can't wait to use it in my next brew(s).

The biggest concern is lacto from the grain. I.e. sour mash. Though they live happily at ~110°F, some strain live on at higher temps. Don't believe me? Forget about your spent mash for a couple of days(my tun still has a slight odor).

I wouldn't wash/keep the yeast from that brew, just in case. Just keg it fast and drink it fast and you should be good either way.
Oh, and sanitize the c-rap out of everything on the cold side after contact.
Cheers

Thanks for the responses. I'll let the wort get to boil before drawing off next time, although my sanitation is pretty solid and I don't think there will be an issue with infection. The washed yeast was in a sanitized growler, and I used a sanitized heavy glass measuring cup to draw off the wort.

Washed a big batch of yeast today after kegging, can't wait to use it in my next brew(s).

 

[divrack]

You have to work hard to overpitch.
I just realised at the last minute that some stopped yeast had started to autolyse and just racked off an almost done neipa and chucked that into the fermentor instead along with tonnes of dry hop. It pretty much instantly started going. I know the dogma is that is bad for healthy yeast growth but I figure they were still healthy from before.
Either way it shells and tastes awesome so far, though not the beer I intended

 

[divrack]

Oh I just saw that you pulled from the mash... Ooh not sure about that. Definitely will be some bugs in that. Had you done mash out? That should have got a lot but there will definitely be stuff left in.
I would second the above guy on that for sure.
Having said that I'd maybe leave some to age and see what happens.

 

[RM-MN]

Oh I just saw that you pulled from the mash... Ooh not sure about that. Definitely will be some bugs in that. Had you done mash out? That should have got a lot but there will definitely be stuff left in.
I would second the above guy on that for sure.
Having said that I'd maybe leave some to age and see what happens.

If the mash was done at a fairly typical range it would have been between 150 and 160F. Please list the "bugs" that can survive at that temperature. Milk is considered pasteurize if heated to 145F and held there for 30 minutes. At higher temps the time is less.

 

[divrack]

If the mash was done at a fairly typical range it would have been between 150 and 160F. Please list the "bugs" that can survive at that temperature. Milk is considered pasteurize if heated to 145F and held there for 30 minutes. At higher temps the time is less.

yep i know. which is why milk goes off if you leave it unopened for a week, whereas UHT milk does not. i imagine most beer drinkers would be unhappy with their beer tasting like 3 week old milk once they were ready to keg, no? it certainly will have killed a lot of the bugs but then you are putting the few survivors into an absolute bug paradise which they will repopulate faster than a country after a war.

Its not quite that simple of course as the action of the pitched yeast will have a positive effect and i imagine the product will be beer to begin with at least but as advised above, i wouldnt hang about on this one if you dont want something to take over.

as far as listing bugs that can survive that i would include any you can think of albeit in very small percentages. Pasteurisation is not sterilisation: the goal is to reduce the fungal and bacterial load to a point regarded as safe (or not detrimental to quality) throughout the product's anticipated shelf life by killing 99.999% of the reference product's unpasteurised load. The lower the load to begin with, the better it all works. given that grain is quite a high load i would be a bit worried.
like i say though, its probably fine, but i wouldnt hang about on it

 

[Miraculix]

yep i know. which is why milk goes off if you leave it unopened for a week, whereas UHT milk does not. i imagine most beer drinkers would be unhappy with their beer tasting like 3 week old milk once they were ready to keg, no? it certainly will have killed a lot of the bugs but then you are putting the few survivors into an absolute bug paradise which they will repopulate faster than a country after a war.

Its not quite that simple of course as the action of the pitched yeast will have a positive effect and i imagine the product will be beer to begin with at least but as advised above, i wouldnt hang about on this one if you dont want something to take over.

as far as listing bugs that can survive that i would include any you can think of albeit in very small percentages. Pasteurisation is not sterilisation: the goal is to reduce the fungal and bacterial load to a point regarded as safe (or not detrimental to quality) throughout the product's anticipated shelf life by killing 99.999% of the reference product's unpasteurised load. The lower the load to begin with, the better it all works. given that grain is quite a high load i would be a bit worried.
like i say though, its probably fine, but i wouldnt hang about on it

Mate, there is a thread in the forum about raw ale, ale which has never been heated past mash temp. This is a proven method that works, there won't be enough bugs left after the mash if kept at typical temp ranges for a typical length of time. I made some raw ales myself, as other people here in the forum as well.

 

[divrack]

Mate, there is a thread in the forum about raw ale, ale which has never been heated past mash temp. This is a proven method that works, there won't be enough bugs left after the mash if kept at typical temp ranges for a typical length of time. I made some raw ales myself, as other people here in the forum as well.

cool. how do they keep? i still think there will be bugs there for sure like i said, how much effect they might have i dont know

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I did however have plenty of washed yeast in the fridge (Nottingham).

You want to be careful with Nottingham - it's a blend rather than a single strain, so if you reuse it you will probably find that the proportions of the blend drift between generations and it won't brew the same way. You can get away with it in the short-term, but it's not something to rely on long-term.

 

[Miraculix]

cool. how do they keep? i still think there will be bugs there for sure like i said, how much effect they might have i dont know

If sanitation is spot on, they keep as long as boiled beers. If they spoil, they do so because of bad sanitation practice at the end of the mash and at every step afterwards. They are a bit more unforgiving regarding bad sanitation practice. But as I said, if sanitation is spot on, the beers last as usual.

 

[seatazzz]

Guys,

Didn't pull the wort directly from the mash, but after it was in the BK and heating up. Mash temp was steady at 156 for the entire mash, so I'm confident there's no bugs and it won't sour. Was probably pretty close to 180 by the time I drew it off.

 

[seatazzz]

So it's a good thing I keep extensive notes. I pulled the wort for kickstarting the yeast for both of them AFTER the boil had started, can't think why I thought it was before boil. So no chance of infection, and an initial taste of both (samples taken sanitarily, of course, both are in buckets with spigots) this afternoon says they're going to be fantastic. Did a (kinda) whirlpool for the first time on the Pliny clone with the flameout hops (clamped the hop bag to the inside of the IC that I had dropped at 30 minutes to end of boil to sanitize, and swirled it around for 10 or so minutes) and it made a HUGE difference in aroma & flavor hops. It is fairly bursting with yummy citrusy sweet hop flavor and the smell is incredible. Can't wait to see what the dry hops do to it. The cream session is pinkish with raspberries and they are really starting to pop, the actual beer tastes fine.

So, to summarize - my "kickstart" yeast not-quite-a-starter is something I will probably keep doing as long as the yeast remains viable. I know I'll have to use some new yeast at some point, but if I'm careful with sanitation and my washing process, I can probably use this a few more times. Above someone mentioned the fact that Nottingham is actually a blend and may not work for some beers, but i tend to make the same 4-5 recipes that do well with it. If I was to try, say, a Belgian (which I'm not terribly fond of anyway), or a really big RIS, I would buy new yeast, no question.

 

[JohnSand]

Sounds great. Funny how our memory sometimes doesn't match our notes.

 

[ESBrewer]

The good news is that most of the bacteria and other micro organisms that are able to grow in beer (in alcohol/acidity) are not very heat resistant (especially, they do not form spores that can be resistant to boiling water). Lactobacillus lindneri is probably the most heat resistant beer spoiler and is killed at 140F/20min. So you should be on the safe side with mash temp of 150+F and good sanitation. Of course it is is good to play it safe, though. You should avoid storing the wort (non alcoholic, not so acidic) too long before you pitch the yeast or the more heat resistant organisms (still alive) may take over and start producing unwanted flavors. If you absolutely need to let it stand for a while before pitching, it is a good idea to do the boil and cool it down, then leave in fridge or other very cold place to settle. In cold the bacterial growth will be slower and this will allow the cold break to settle completely, too.