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Question. How do they dry hop with no oxygen in a commercial environment?
No oxygen dry hopping
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GoeHaarden
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I don't even LODO, but I try to minimize O2 ingress post fermentation. I've been trying to solve this problem as well with a "needlessly complex" solution, but the magnet ideas are brilliant.
I saw someone do this in a fermentasaurus and all he did was vacuum seal the magnets just to be sure it was safe for contact with the wort. Pulled the outside magnet and dropped hop bag completely in the wort. I'm sure you could use two magnets turn the bag upside down and pull the bottom magnet.
Homergah
Only I didn't say fudge
We ignore/deny the "co2 blanket is a myth" wisdom, and open the port on the top of the fermentor and drop hops. Not really introducing a detectable amount of oxygen. It's a matter of scale. As homebrewers with our small batches, we have to be many times more diligent with our processes.
I've been thinking about this problem for a while, and with the added twist that I ferment in Corny kegs with a floating dip tube. So I don't want a lot of extra equipment in there that might interfere with the floating dip tube. My latest thought (not tried yet), is to make a small mesh bag for the hops, but instead of a traditional bag, start with a piece of flat mesh and sew the bag up with dissolving thread. Suspend that bag with a magnet at the top, even within the lid depression, and release it when ready. Once the thread dissolves, what's left is a small piece of flat mesh, which hopefully would just settle nicely on the bottom.
These threads are made from polyvinyl alcohol, which is edible. And because there's only a few inches required, at the thickness of thread, I'm not at all concerned with it affecting the beer.
My only concern is that the krausen might build up high enough to dissolve the thread prematurely.
Another issue is that I'd really have no way of checking whether they released prematurely or not. I'd like to demo it with a big mouth bubbler or something, but I don't own one.
But maybe the thread isn't needed at all, if I can fold the sides of the "bag" over a magnet (vacuum - sealed strong one) and have that fixed to the lid with an external magnet. When the magnet is released, the "bag" should fall apart.
I'm personally not concerned with the hop pellets being exposed to the atmosphere in the fermenter for the few days before dry hopping. But if you are then you could get most of the way there by making a "bag" from plastic film and folding it over a magnet. Maybe the side from a quart ziploc bag.
By the way, if anyone has old hard drives lying around, those are a great source for super strong magnets.
These threads are made from polyvinyl alcohol, which is edible. And because there's only a few inches required, at the thickness of thread, I'm not at all concerned with it affecting the beer.
My only concern is that the krausen might build up high enough to dissolve the thread prematurely.
Another issue is that I'd really have no way of checking whether they released prematurely or not. I'd like to demo it with a big mouth bubbler or something, but I don't own one.
But maybe the thread isn't needed at all, if I can fold the sides of the "bag" over a magnet (vacuum - sealed strong one) and have that fixed to the lid with an external magnet. When the magnet is released, the "bag" should fall apart.
I'm personally not concerned with the hop pellets being exposed to the atmosphere in the fermenter for the few days before dry hopping. But if you are then you could get most of the way there by making a "bag" from plastic film and folding it over a magnet. Maybe the side from a quart ziploc bag.
By the way, if anyone has old hard drives lying around, those are a great source for super strong magnets.
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It seemed to be less of an issue when I fermented in glass carboys. I'd pop off the cap, drop in hops (or a cylindrical hops tube), close it back up. A small amount of air likely gets in, but with the small diameter mouth, probably not a lot.
I now use Brew Buckets and I'm more concerned taking off a 12" diameter lid, even if it's just a few seconds. I realize the CO2 in the headspace isn't really a "blanket," but it is close to a pure CO2 atmosphere due to the constant dilution effect during active fermentation. I hate to let in a bunch of air and have that sit in there several days during dry hopping. There's not much fermentation activity left to re-generate CO2. I'm not doing the full gamut of LODO procedures, but I'm trying to limit O2 exposure wherever I can. There is potential for an easy fix for this stage of the process.
Maybe somebody like SS Brewtech will develop a "LODO dry hopper" for their Brew Buckets and conicals. Perhaps some kind of hopper that attaches to the underside of the lid, with a release mechanism.
Meanwhile, I might try to find a way to kludge something that works. Lots of good ideas in this thread, and even if a few are kind of far-fetched, it all gets me thinking of this issue.
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I couldn't decide whether to like this post or be appalled by it. Dissolving thread? Really?
So I went looking. Found this, which I think agrees with @Veets in that just a few inches of thread in 5 gallons of beer is likely meaningless:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12504164/
And it's available on Amazon among other places:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=polyvinyl+alcohol+thread&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
Homergah
Only I didn't say fudge
Off the top of my head, I can think of many uses for that dissolving thread. I gotta admit, using it for a hop drop is down on that list quite a way. I might end up divorced if I implemented any of them.
Seriously though, that is a good idea. (The hop dropper)
Seriously though, that is a good idea. (The hop dropper)
dlettow
Well-Known Member
Mason jar rings/bands are magnetic. Screw a lid on a 1/2 pint jar with the magnet on the outside like proposed. Pull magnet and the whole thing plops in. Costs nothing if already have jars and a strong magnet. Only thing I'm not sure of is the tin plated steel ring reacting with the wort. Is tin bad?
That and positive CO2 pressure being forced into the tank at the same time keeps all but a negligible amount out. That and the average dry hop port being a fraction of the size of a bucket lid.
My preferred method (harder to replicate at home) is to slurry dry hop. Hops go into a seperate vessel purged with CO2 or nitrogen (there are things made for this, but the cheap way is a yeast brink), beer from the tank is drawn in and the resulting slurry is shot back in with gas pressure. There's different ways of doing it (some devices will also recirc it afterwards), but the fermenter is never opened.
Added plus is it can be done with the tank under pressure.
I like this magnet idea. Dunno how much I trust it to be sanitary especially if something hinged is involved, plus the potential for krausen to seep in or gum up the works. Added headspace would solve the latter though.
Homergah
Only I didn't say fudge
We canned a lot in the past. Yes those rings could be a problem, maybe. I know after installing them they will rust sitting on the shelf in the shop after a month or two. They won't be in contact with beer very long, but it's a less hospitable environment in the fermentor.
thats why i'd think a flexible cup would be the lowest common denominator. if it works in a narrow neck, it'll work anywhere.
i think the effect on krauzen would be nil. if the foam is going to climb up over it then its gonna happen no matter what you do.
but yeah, you're gonna need some decent headspace in the vessel, no matter what type. might not be feasible after all if you need to find an 8gallon carboy.
i think the effect on krauzen would be nil. if the foam is going to climb up over it then its gonna happen no matter what you do.
but yeah, you're gonna need some decent headspace in the vessel, no matter what type. might not be feasible after all if you need to find an 8gallon carboy.
OP
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Tomorrow I'll start experimenting with magnets on my speidel lid. Each fermenter comes with its own challenges.
I like the flexible cup idea. It can be drawn up close to the sides to conform with the curvature of the vessel wall and keep the pellets from falling out before it's time. Silicone might be good, as it's neutral and can be sanitized. Cut a cup from one of those silicone muffin trays, then use magnets on both sides to hold the edges in place. This wouldn't be practical with carboys, due to the narrow neck, but it could work with plastic pail fermenters, Brew Buckets, and the like.
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Need to build the "Hopper" bucket lid, built into the underside of lid, through which CO2 passes, released by internet of things, phone app, solar powered solenoid.
No. Not solar powered. Keep that away from the fermenter.
No. Not solar powered. Keep that away from the fermenter.
OP
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Been experimenting with what's in the house.
Large tea leaf infuser! The one I have can hold about 4 oz. of pellets, but I think you can get larger.
On the Big mouth bubblers, two monofilament lines. One line attached at the top with a quick release knot. The other line tied stationary on the bottom. When the quick release is pulled, the cage is upside down. Just need to mark the line that's pulled.
The speidel lid is much easier. It seems to hold with a large magnet.
Large tea leaf infuser! The one I have can hold about 4 oz. of pellets, but I think you can get larger.
On the Big mouth bubblers, two monofilament lines. One line attached at the top with a quick release knot. The other line tied stationary on the bottom. When the quick release is pulled, the cage is upside down. Just need to mark the line that's pulled.
The speidel lid is much easier. It seems to hold with a large magnet.
Some breweries use these or versions of these:
https://marksdmw.com/products/mini-dry-hop-cannon
Attaches to a triclover butterfly valve on top of the conical. Purge....then open valve to drop them in.
Can I just say that I love these kinds of threads... identifying a problem and then brainstorming ways around it is a great part of homebrewing!
I have had mixed dry hopping results for this very reason.... I would tend to dry hop still with a few gravity points to go in my fermentation in order to prevent the effect of the additional oxygen going into the fermenter... but the flip side of this is that often the hops would be left in for too long.
Love all the ideas, but one post mentioned the problem of Krausen and this is going to impact a lot of the designs.
I'm trying to think if there's a way to have a second hole in the fermenter lid and then having something like a peppercorn grinder slotted into it... then when it's time to dry hop, just spin the grinder and have ground up hop pellets dropping into the beer... but then they'd just float maybe!?!
Maybe a similar kind of design but a cylinder fixed onto the top of the fermenter that opened when you spun the chamber somehow?
I have had mixed dry hopping results for this very reason.... I would tend to dry hop still with a few gravity points to go in my fermentation in order to prevent the effect of the additional oxygen going into the fermenter... but the flip side of this is that often the hops would be left in for too long.
Love all the ideas, but one post mentioned the problem of Krausen and this is going to impact a lot of the designs.
I'm trying to think if there's a way to have a second hole in the fermenter lid and then having something like a peppercorn grinder slotted into it... then when it's time to dry hop, just spin the grinder and have ground up hop pellets dropping into the beer... but then they'd just float maybe!?!
Maybe a similar kind of design but a cylinder fixed onto the top of the fermenter that opened when you spun the chamber somehow?
Well done!
This is an interesting approach, let me see if I understand the concept correctly, as I'm not very familiar with commercial brewing gear. This device holds the hops but is mounted atop the fermenter and the hops are then dumped in?
Maybe there's an adaptation that could be cobbled together for homebrewers. A vessel that holds the hops in an inert atmosphere (purged with CO2 or N2). The vessel has a valve on the bottom to drop the pellets into the fermenter. Could be fabricated from some large tubing--maybe PVC? Getting the valve part might be tricky. One would have to search places like Grainger, etc. to see if there is a reasonably priced butterfly valve.
OK, another badly-drawn sketch from Max Stout.
Make a hops container that mounts atop a fermenter. The hops container has a butterfly valve on the bottom to release the hops and a blowoff connector on its top. The butterfly valve would be modified such that it cannot close all the way. At the closed position there's just enough aperture to let out escaping CO2 during fermentation, but not enough for any of the pellets to fall through. When the valve is opened all the way, the pellets drop. During fermentation, the valve is in the "closed" position and CO2 passes through the hops vessel, through the blowout and eventually displacing most of the air. The hops stay in a mostly O2-free environment. The Dry Hop Hopper.
Make a hops container that mounts atop a fermenter. The hops container has a butterfly valve on the bottom to release the hops and a blowoff connector on its top. The butterfly valve would be modified such that it cannot close all the way. At the closed position there's just enough aperture to let out escaping CO2 during fermentation, but not enough for any of the pellets to fall through. When the valve is opened all the way, the pellets drop. During fermentation, the valve is in the "closed" position and CO2 passes through the hops vessel, through the blowout and eventually displacing most of the air. The hops stay in a mostly O2-free environment. The Dry Hop Hopper.
OP
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I know at least one of you has a Spike conical. (That's on my to do list)…
I'm wondering if something could be done with that big 4" TC top port that's just sitting there doing nothing for dry hopping?
I haven't bought that CF-10 yet and I don't want to deviate too far off track, but the instructions show removing the 1.5" blow tube on the top port at the end of fermentation, and installing the gas manifold to pressurize a cold crash. WTF? You've just added oxygen. Why not install the gas manifold at the start of fermentation, add a gas ball lock on the post with a silicone tube to some star-san. At the end of fermentation pinch the silicone tubing and connect that tube to the CO2? No opening the fermenter.
I'm wondering if something could be done with that big 4" TC top port that's just sitting there doing nothing for dry hopping?
I haven't bought that CF-10 yet and I don't want to deviate too far off track, but the instructions show removing the 1.5" blow tube on the top port at the end of fermentation, and installing the gas manifold to pressurize a cold crash. WTF? You've just added oxygen. Why not install the gas manifold at the start of fermentation, add a gas ball lock on the post with a silicone tube to some star-san. At the end of fermentation pinch the silicone tubing and connect that tube to the CO2? No opening the fermenter.
If I wasn't using it for a cooling coil, that kind of thing might work.
I've given thought to having Spike add a second tri-clamp port on the fermenter lid (the other I use for the pressure manifold, though some use it for a blowoff cane), and then do something like @MaxStout drew above. The beauty of a design like he drew--using the term loosely
--is that the hops are purged by CO2 from fermentation, and then close off the top and dump 'em in.Of all the designs we've fiddled with here, I like that one the best.
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If I wasn't using it for a cooling coil, that kind of thing might work.
I've given thought to having Spike add a second tri-clamp port on the fermenter lid (the other I use for the pressure manifold, though some use it for a blowoff cane), and then do something like @MaxStout drew above. The beauty of a design like he drew--using the term loosely
Of all the designs we've fiddled with here, I like that one the best.
DOH! I forgot about the cooling coil.
I agree with Max's diagram. It would actually be workable.
Funny I should come across this thread. I used whole cone hops for the first time last week. At first I put them in a mesh bag, but found I've only created a raft for the hops to ride on top of. I then sanitized a spoon and pushed the hop bag down into my beer only to introduce even more O2. I held the bag under the sweet nectar hoping that the hops would get soaked up enough to get submerged. After what felt like an eternity (probably 2 minutes) I gave up and decided to cut the hop bag open and let the hops go where they may. This took probably 6 or so minutes and who knows how much oxygen into the beer. This got me thinking on how there could be a better way to dry hop my IPA's. Below was the solution I came up with...
I'm talking with my plastics guy to get some quotes on tooling.
I'm talking with my plastics guy to get some quotes on tooling.
OK, perforated butterfly valve. That solves the issue of allowing CO2 to pass out. No need to have a valve cracked slightly open.
Another workaround with a standard non-perforated butterfly: In the config I drew above, one could run another tube parallel that vents CO2 from the fermenter then the tube is connected into the lower side of the hopper. That way the valve can be fully closed during ferm, and CO2 would pass into the hopper, and out the blowoff tube on top. You still have the CO2 flushing out the air in the hopper during ferm and the hops stay in place until it's time to drop them.
I'm on my phone now, away from my pc so I can't do a new crappy sketch, but I hope you get the idea.
Another workaround with a standard non-perforated butterfly: In the config I drew above, one could run another tube parallel that vents CO2 from the fermenter then the tube is connected into the lower side of the hopper. That way the valve can be fully closed during ferm, and CO2 would pass into the hopper, and out the blowoff tube on top. You still have the CO2 flushing out the air in the hopper during ferm and the hops stay in place until it's time to drop them.
I'm on my phone now, away from my pc so I can't do a new crappy sketch, but I hope you get the idea.
d3track
Are you sure about that?
oooooo - and with the valve we could use a servo to open/close...with an Arduino or RPi to interface.
and the magnets...electromagnets!
now we are dry hopping with minimal O2 and automation!
and the magnets...electromagnets!
now we are dry hopping with minimal O2 and automation!
Now we're....hopping....with gas.
I made this about three weeks ago:
The idea is to use it with a corny keg lid with a ball valve attached to it.
Inside the keg would be a bag around a flexible frame attached to the underneath of the valve...inside.
The bag would catch and filter the hops so they don’t clog the dip tube etc...
I posted about it in the low oxygen brewing forum:
http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
It’s been pressure tested but I haven’t made the lid part. I would crush the hop pellets so they don’t get caught up in the transfer...as the opening is only 1/2”.
There is a fine mesh screen installed in the top male fitting. I cut a 2” circle of it and pushed it into the slip side before inserting and gluing in the pipe. The pipe sandwiches the screen in place. The screen should prevent dust from hops clogging up the valve in the cap when pressure is purged/released. This I haven’t tested yet.
Because of this screen hops are put in from the bottom since in use the bottom valve would part of the keg lid contraption. The bottom valve in the picture is just for pressure testing.
The idea is to use it with a corny keg lid with a ball valve attached to it.
Inside the keg would be a bag around a flexible frame attached to the underneath of the valve...inside.
The bag would catch and filter the hops so they don’t clog the dip tube etc...
I posted about it in the low oxygen brewing forum:
http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1166
It’s been pressure tested but I haven’t made the lid part. I would crush the hop pellets so they don’t get caught up in the transfer...as the opening is only 1/2”.
There is a fine mesh screen installed in the top male fitting. I cut a 2” circle of it and pushed it into the slip side before inserting and gluing in the pipe. The pipe sandwiches the screen in place. The screen should prevent dust from hops clogging up the valve in the cap when pressure is purged/released. This I haven’t tested yet.
Because of this screen hops are put in from the bottom since in use the bottom valve would part of the keg lid contraption. The bottom valve in the picture is just for pressure testing.
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If I wasn't using it for a cooling coil, that kind of thing might work.
I've given thought to having Spike add a second tri-clamp port on the fermenter lid (the other I use for the pressure manifold, though some use it for a blowoff cane), and then do something like @MaxStout drew above. The beauty of a design like he drew--using the term loosely
Of all the designs we've fiddled with here, I like that one the best.
I've sent an email to Spike asking about having them add a second TC port to the lid....
But it occurs to me I could make something with only the one port that would work. Like this:
That would work.
You could vary the length of the tube to accommodate your typical dry hop volume.
What can you pressurize this to?
30 psi would be ideal in order to fully purge O2.
Also, triclover gaskets are made that have a mesh screen in them....in order to prevent dust and material clogging the PRV when you release pressure during the purge.
You could vary the length of the tube to accommodate your typical dry hop volume.
What can you pressurize this to?
30 psi would be ideal in order to fully purge O2.
Also, triclover gaskets are made that have a mesh screen in them....in order to prevent dust and material clogging the PRV when you release pressure during the purge.
It can only be pressurized to about 12-13 psi.
Currently I only have the pressure manifold, which has a prv and a gas-out post on it. Typically what I do during active fermentation is attach a QD to the gas post, run a tube from that to a blowoff jar. I like monitoring fermentation by the bubbling, I can tell when it's slowing. Same result as a blowoff cane.
So there will be CO2 flowing out through the hop pellets and out to the blowoff jar; by the time fermentation is complete, the entire headspace and hop space would be completely purged of O2. Then it's just a matter of pulling off the QD from the gas post, which seals the fermenter, and then dumping the hop pellets into the wort. I wouldn't think dust would be much of an issue. The CO2 gas flow isn't hugely aggressive.
It would be better to have a separate port for this, and I could attach a gas-out post to the top of the 2" (or whatever) length of stainless tube I used. Otherwise, it would be kind of top-heavy, and a 2" valve would be less prone to the pellets bridging and not falling into the wort. Not sure how big a problem that would likely be.
I'm liking this idea but have same headspace reservation.
One thing on worrying about keeping the hops cold at least they will be in mainly CO2 pretty fast with a quick starting fermentation.
One thing on worrying about keeping the hops cold at least they will be in mainly CO2 pretty fast with a quick starting fermentation.
That’s why (if i could get something rigged up) would prefer to put the hops in, purge with bottled co2, and drop them in right away.
I’m not comfortable leaving them at fermentation temp for a prolonged period of time even if they are purged of o2.
Also....for a keg at least....and with my bag contraption....you could attach a blow off tube on the keg to either to gas post or the liquid post during dry hopping.
The contraption would be at a higher pressure and once the valve is opened hops would shoot into keg.
The blow off attached to one of the keg posts would allow any displacement from the incoming hops and gas to escape.
The bag also helps to keep the hops contained that may clog the post being used for blow off.
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When I buy hops at my LHBS, he gets them out of boxes on the shelf. Not refrigerated or frozen.
That is not good.
Well, maybe. How do you think they're shipped to your LHBS? And at the distributor--are they stored in a refrigerated environment? And if you order them online--do they come to you in a sealed environment with ice packs?
My point was that a few days at ferm temp isn't likely to do them any more harm than during all those other time periods when they aren't refrigerated or frozen.
Some of the online stores actually do keep them in purged sealed bags and at freezing temps.
I always pay for an ice pack for shipment.
My local store keeps a lot of hops in open bags with rubber bands around them on the counter.
I don’t buy those and ask for sealed bags which they keep in a freezer.
Some hops are very susceptible to degradation.
This recent podcast goes into details about hops and in there is some info on storage:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hop-and-brew-school-podcast/id1446239821?mt=2&i=1000431447918
Just food for thought.
I always pay for an ice pack for shipment.
My local store keeps a lot of hops in open bags with rubber bands around them on the counter.
I don’t buy those and ask for sealed bags which they keep in a freezer.
Some hops are very susceptible to degradation.
This recent podcast goes into details about hops and in there is some info on storage:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hop-and-brew-school-podcast/id1446239821?mt=2&i=1000431447918
Just food for thought.
Totally agree. However, as hop packets could stay on the shelf at your LBHS for the best part of a year, I'd be wary of buying them there if they are not kept at least refrigerated. Freezing is overkill unless you plan on keeping them longer than a year.
My point again is how are they delivered to the store? When they are packaged at the hop plant, are they immediately--IMMEDIATELY--purged and stored in frozen or refrigerated environments? Are they shipped that way?
I have a hard time believing 3 or 4 days in an environment at 65 degrees is going to make any discernable difference at all. Do what you will, it's your beer.
