No apple flavor

[MikeyMike929]

Hi all: I made my first gallon batch of cider from apple juice with one cup of white sugar and Red Star Premier Classique yeast. Two weeks primary, then racked to secondary for a week. It has now cleared up beautifully. Totally flat and clear on top. No bubbles at all. Specific gravity a hair under 1.000. But it tastes like white wine, with no real discernible apple flavor. Is this normal? Do cider manufacturers add in apple juice or concentrate at the end? Or did I get too much alcohol from the added sugar which masks the apple flavor? Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

Every ingredient matters.

Use the best juice you can find, preferably fresh pressed from a local orchard. Old heritage variety apples tend to give more acidity and tannin than regular grocery apples, which add interesting complexity to the cider. If you can add a few crabapples to the mix, even better. But if you don't have a choice of apples or juice source, your expectations should not be as high.

I would not have added any sugar. And you added a lot. This will dilute the apple flavor and make it more wine-like.

Yeast matters. You can experiment with different yeasts that don't ferment as much, or which leave more apple flavors behind than others. You can also try ale yeasts which tend to leave a little more sweetness behind than wine yeasts.

You can backsweeten with fresh juice but may need to inhibit further fermentation either by adding sorbate and sulfite or by heat pasteurization. Alternatively you can backsweeten with unfermentable options such as lactose or xylitol (I like these options). You might enjoy your cider better with backsweetening one way or another.

Good luck, welcome to this fun hobby.

 

[jnesselrode]

I'm trying to get that figured out myself as my previous ciders have been much like what you describe. See the Irish Cider and Three Cider Experiment threads here for my thinking and some ideas.

I do think the added sugar is working against you some, but it's not over for you yet. I boosted the tannin and acid levels in my latest batches to try to get things closer to the fuller bodied/more fruity ciders I like. I intend to let the three batches finish out, taste and adjust. I may add more acid, tannin or apple juice concentrate after the fact. I suggest you try the same.

Good luck.

 

[MikeyMike929]

I'm trying to get that figured out myself as my previous ciders have been much like what you describe. See the Irish Cider and Three Cider Experiment threads here for my thinking and some ideas.

I do think the added sugar is working against you some, but it's not over for you yet. I boosted the tannin and acid levels in my latest batches to try to get things closer to the fuller bodied/more fruity ciders I like. I intend to let the three batches finish out, taste and adjust. I may add more acid, tannin or apple juice concentrate after the fact. I suggest you try the same.

Good luck.

Thanks for your thoughts. My second batch I did 85% apple juice and 15% cherry juice, and no added sugar. So the alcohol content will be lower and perhaps more fruit flavor will come through.

 

[MikeyMike929]

Every ingredient matters.

Use the best juice you can find, preferably fresh pressed from a local orchard. Old heritage variety apples tend to give more acidity and tannin than regular grocery apples, which add interesting complexity to the cider. If you can add a few crabapples to the mix, even better. But if you don't have a choice of apples or juice source, your expectations should not be as high.

I would not have added any sugar. And you added a lot. This will dilute the apple flavor and make it more wine-like.

Yeast matters. You can experiment with different yeasts that don't ferment as much, or which leave more apple flavors behind than others. You can also try ale yeasts which tend to leave a little more sweetness behind than wine yeasts.

You can backsweeten with fresh juice but may need to inhibit further fermentation either by adding sorbate and sulfite or by heat pasteurization. Alternatively you can backsweeten with unfermentable options such as lactose or xylitol (I like these options). You might enjoy your cider better with backsweetening one way or another.

Good luck, welcome to this fun hobby.

Thanks for the tips. This was just store-bough apple juice. Will try using farm-stand cider next time.

 

[jnesselrode]

Thanks for your thoughts. My second batch I did 85% apple juice and 15% cherry juice, and no added sugar. So the alcohol content will be lower and perhaps more fruit flavor will come through.

I like the sound of that! Glad you were able to do one without the sugar too so you can compare.

 

[Raptor99]

Thanks for the tips. This was just store-bough apple juice. Will try using farm-stand cider next time.

There are many different brands of grocery store apple juice Some have a much better flavor than others. I would look for 100% apple juice not made from concentate. I have had good results from Treetop Sweet and Tart apple juice.

But you still need to add some acid and tannin to make it more like the juice from cider apples. Since malic acid is the main acid in apples, I use mostly malic acid rather than acid blend. Farm stand apple juice, if it is not from cider apples, will still be lacking in acid and tannins. But it will have a better flavor.

 

[Beermeister32]

Try 2 ounces of this per 5 gallons after fermentation. Back sweeten with Splenda. Bottle. Age 90 days.

 

[Brizzo]

Every year my family squeezes our own apples. We have 10 varieties that squeeze all together and usually end up with something like 100-150 gallons. I always take 5 to ferment into hard cider. My method is, I heat pasteurize the fresh cider to kill the bugs (I heat to 175 then take off the stove). I have played with adding sulfites. I don’t perceive any taste difference between the heat and sulfite batches. Then ferment 4 gallons and freeze the remaining 1 gallon. After the 4 gallons has fermented out, I keg it and add the additional frozen gallon. I attach the gas, and serve it on draft. It always great. Tastes like fresh pressed cider.

 

[jnesselrode]

Try 2 ounces of this per 5 gallons after fermentation. Back sweeten with Splenda. Bottle. Age 90 days.View attachment 831826

I've toyed with that idea but I sorta want to tweak my recipes and/or process to try to get there first. I just kinda like the idea of doing it myself, if you know what I mean.

 

[Beermeister32]

Yep me too. Sometimes hard to get that flavor after fermentation. Anyway, this is one of the after-fermentation tweaks you might try. They have a strawberry flavor I added to one batch too. Worked for me…!

 

[MikeyMike929]

Try 2 ounces of this per 5 gallons after fermentation. Back sweeten with Splenda. Bottle. Age 90 days.View attachment 831826

Thanks! I had not heard of this product.

 

[jnesselrode]

I've got a bottle of Shonauer Apfel liqueur and might try a splash of that in a glass with the cider. But probably my first choice will be to add frozen apple juice concentrate to both boost apple flavor but also to give a little sweetness and help with carbonation.

 

[Beermeister32]

If you add concentrate to the carboy, it will convert to alcohol but not add sweetness. It will be drier, less sweet. Won't add carbonation.

If you kegged it and used a measured amount, you could use it to carbonate the batch.

If you add concentrate to a glass you are drinking, it will add apple flavor and sweetness but not carbonation.

If you add concentrate to the bottling bucket, it has the potential to cause bottle bombs depending on how much you add. Will not add sweetness, would cause secondary fermentation in the bottle.

 

[jnesselrode]

If you add concentrate to the carboy, it will convert to alcohol but not add sweetness. It will be drier, less sweet. Won't add carbonation.

If you kegged it and used a measured amount, you could use it to carbonate the batch.

If you add concentrate to a glass you are drinking, it will add apple flavor and sweetness but not carbonation.

If you add concentrate to the bottling bucket, it has the potential to cause bottle bombs depending on how much you add. Will not add sweetness, would cause secondary fermentation in the bottle.

But...if you add concentrate, allow it to partially ferment and then pasteurize you've got some sweetening AND carbonation.

 

[Beermeister32]

But...if you add concentrate, allow it to partially ferment and then pasteurize you've got some sweetening AND carbonation.

Just don't get "bombed" on your cider!

 

[jnesselrode]

I was noodling things over today and had a thought. Seems a lot of us want that apple flavor to come through, me included, and talk about adding things to get it. Of course unfermented cider comes to mind, but that's dilutive to the alcohol that we also want. So....

Maybe add sugar to your cider to get up to around 1.100 for a potential alcohol of 12% and ferment it dry. Then add an equal volume of unfermented cider which would dilute it to a more normal cider level of 6% but with a healthy dose of apple flavor? Of course that would kick up the sweetness a bit but that could be balanced with some acid and/or tannin additions if needed. Could also facilitate bottle carbonation.

There might be some scientists/mathematicians that could blow a hole in my math, but the concept seems to make sense to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Beermeister32]

I was noodling things over today and had a thought. Seems a lot of us want that apple flavor to come through, me included, and talk about adding things to get it. Of course unfermented cider comes to mind, but that's dilutive to the alcohol that we also want. So....

Maybe add sugar to your cider to get up to around 1.100 for a potential alcohol of 12% and ferment it dry. Then add an equal volume of unfermented cider which would dilute it to a more normal cider level of 6% but with a healthy dose of apple flavor? Of course that would kick up the sweetness a bit but that could be balanced with some acid and/or tannin additions if needed. Could also facilitate bottle carbonation.

There might be some scientists/mathematicians that could blow a hole in my math, but the concept seems to make sense to me.

Thoughts?

You could fill a glass with half cider, half apple juice, give it a try.

 

[jnesselrode]

You could fill a glass with half cider, half apple juice, give it a try.

Yeah but 5% cider plus juice = ??% watered down hard cider.

 

[Beermeister32]

You could play around with the ratios until you find something you like.

 

[jnesselrode]

You could play around with the ratios until you find something you like.

But if I want to end up around 5% ABV…

 

[OleBrewing]

Every year my family squeezes our own apples. We have 10 varieties that squeeze all together and usually end up with something like 100-150 gallons. I always take 5 to ferment into hard cider. My method is, I heat pasteurize the fresh cider to kill the bugs (I heat to 175 then take off the stove). I have played with adding sulfites. I don’t perceive any taste difference between the heat and sulfite batches. Then ferment 4 gallons and freeze the remaining 1 gallon. After the 4 gallons has fermented out, I keg it and add the additional frozen gallon. I attach the gas, and serve it on draft. It always great. Tastes like fresh pressed cider.

only five? never did pasteurize only wild fermentation with cider. next time do 10 gallons and let one 5 gallon buck. wild ferment wont look like much during fermentation but it happens.

i have picked apples fermenting from the inside out which you wouldnt think would happen but it does.

and to think i had to cut down an apple tree that was growing into the house and shed that grew racket ball sized crap apples.

 

[jnesselrode]

You could play around with the ratios until you find something you like.

Appreciate your thoughts but I'm trying to get something non-dilutive. Gonna start another thread and see if I can get some more folks talking about this idea.

 

[BenniferBropez]

Hi all: I made my first gallon batch of cider from apple juice with one cup of white sugar and Red Star Premier Classique yeast. Two weeks primary, then racked to secondary for a week. It has now cleared up beautifully. Totally flat and clear on top. No bubbles at all. Specific gravity a hair under 1.000. But it tastes like white wine, with no real discernible apple flavor. Is this normal? Do cider manufacturers add in apple juice or concentrate at the end? Or did I get too much alcohol from the added sugar which masks the apple flavor? Thanks!

Hey Mike, I grow and press my own apples and have made cider for years. Store bought juice will usually end up like a white wine but if you back sweeten it can sometimes help bring out some of that fruit flavor but may not taste like apples. Cider makers let apples ripen far longer than what we find at the store and the apples will begin to perfume an entire house as they ripen. This process of ripening until the apples begin to smell strongly adds a good amount of flavor and scent to the apple must. Fermenting colder will help keep some of the flavor compounds so you might try that.
If I were fermenting store bought juice, I would ferment at as low a temperature as I could, maybe use lager yeast. Minimize head space as flavor compounds in cider will oxidize. Consider back sweetening just enough that it is not bone dry in order to help accentuate the fruit. You may also try different brands with the above process and see if some brands retain fruit flavor more than others. If you cannot get the flavor profile you are after, you could consider adding some apple flavor.
Ben

 

[fluketamer]

grahams cider.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/grahams-english-cider.107152/
dont use a wine yeast use an ale yeast which shouldnt end up as dry.
and start with good juice always. motts works fine.
if still too dry you can sweeten in the glass by adding monin apple syrup to taste.
grenadine also works well and makes it very nice pinkish hue.
you can also add to the keg and keep very cold so it doesnt really ferment the sugar in the cordials.

 

[Raptor99]

In addition to the great advice above, it helps to modify the apple juice so that it is more like cider apples. You can do that by adding some malic acid and tannins. Doing that gives the apple juice more depth of flavor. Then backsweeten at least a little to bring out the apple flavor.

If you don't have a pH meter, try adding 1/8 tsp malic acid to a gallon of apple juice and tasting it to see if you like the change. You might need to add a little more.

You can get some powdered wine tannin and add 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. of that per gallon.

 

[fluketamer]

Graham's English Cider
5 gallons Treetop (or equivalent) Apple Juice
4 black teabags (English or Irish Breakfast)
3 key limes (or one regular lime)
1 pack s-04 yeast
(yeast nutrients as needed)

the tannin in black tea really does wonders for making wines or ciders from juice. which lack the tannins in fresh fruit as said above. i think the tannins are in the skin. you wont taste the tea and it wont darken the cider. juice wines use black tea tannins and lemon juice (for citric acid) and optional glycerine for body. juice wine viscosity can also be low (which results in thin wines and ciders) and glycerine can help this but i stopped adding it a long time ago. i think erythritol which is unfermentable and can add sweetness also adds body by being unfermentable.

adding malic to ciders i thought had to do with malic acid fermentation in ciders. MLF. but i think after reading the thread below that adding malic back is for the acid bite perhaps because malic is used up in the mlf reaction. the citric acid from lemons or limes in this case ( or oranges in the case of JAOM) supplies juice wines or ciders with acid bite. adding lemon juice to juice ciders vs malic in a side by side would be easy and prolly worth a try.

adding malic to specifically apple juice rather then citric however may make a difference i dont know enough about ciders to say.

i havent tried to make cider with apple cider cause i am always worried about the final product being cloudy but im sure it will make better cider than juice cause the starting product tastes better.
cordial back sweeting is really easiest because you can just ferment to completely dry to 1.000 . or less by just letting it go. you dont event have to check gravity. after 1 month in carboy most wine yeasts will be dry as a bone even the ones that say not like kv1116. the drying out is whats removing the apple flavor. the yeast are eating through everything. ale yeasts usually conk out a little earlier than getting something that dry prolly cause they dont like apple must as much as barley wort. even with ale yeast if it gets too dry then after drying it out just keg or bottle. then a few drops of whatever flavor you want in the glass. the pour will thoroughly mix whatever syrup is in the bottom.

 

[Raptor99]

adding malic to specifically apple juice rather then citric however may make a difference i dont know enough about ciders to say.

Malic acid is the main acid in apples, so adding malic acid makes the flavor more apple-like. Similarly, for fruit wines I try to add the main acid in that type of fruit, e.g. citric acid for blueberry wine. If you want to do an experiment, take some grocery store apple juice and add the same amount of a different acid to each of several samples. Taste them each to see how they are different.

I don't do MLF in my ciders, so it has nothing to do with that.

 

[z-bob]

Try using Red Star "Cote des Blancs" (Epernay 2) yeast. I keep trying different ale yeasts and wine yeasts -- I haven't tried bread yeast or lager yeast yet -- and I keep coming back to CdB because it tastes the best. And it's cheap

Also the cider will taste different (better) when it's carbonated. Then if it's still not apple-y enough, try adding just a little simple syrup when you serve it. It doesn't take much sweetness at all to bring the apple taste back. The good thing about sweetening it at serving time is everyone can sweeten to the level they like. You could even make a syrup out of frozen concentrated apple juice, but just sugar syrup is probably all you need. (you don't sweeten with powdered or granulated sweetener because it will fizz up and go flat)

 

[Chalkyt]

It is a rainy day and I was pondering the perpetual question of getting more “apple flavour” into cider, especially with store-bought juice. Here is a left-field "pointy-head" approach to it.

I generally deal with any flavour issue conventionally by playing with malic acid or tannins since adding AJC also adds sugar which will increase alcohol disproportionally. So, I must stress that this is just an idea, I haven’t tried to do it and the arithmetic is a bit rough, but …

Typical cider apple juice is around SG 1.050, which means that using some typical numbers, a litre (say 1000g) comprises something like 870g of water, 110g of sugar and 20g of non-fermentable flavour compounds (acids, tannins, etc).

When it is fermented the 110g of sugar turns into 48% or 53g of CO2 (which goes off into the atmosphere), 48% or 53g of alcohol (which remains in the cider) and 4g of “new” non-fermentable flavour compounds.

So, the end result is 24g or 2.5% of flavour compounds in the remaining 947g of water and alcohol.

Since ethanol “boils” at 173F (80C), what would happen if the alcohol was boiled off and the “cider” simmered until the volume was reduced to say ½ litre? I have no idea how long this would take or if 80C would introduce a cooked flavour.

My guess is that the ½ litre would still have the original 24g of flavour compounds which is now at a concentration of 4.8%, double the original concentration. You end up with a form of AJC without the sugar. Voila, adding this non-fermentable “flavour concentration” to a litre of the original cider increases the flavour concentration from 2.5% to 3.3%, or an increase of 25% which would probably make a substantial difference to the “apple flavour”.

Sure, there are all sorts of combintions of volumes, alcolol boiled off – alcohol not boiled off, etc, but maybe some brilliant biochemist might be able to comment on whether this approach would work or not. It might even be a way to make low-alcohol cider without sacrificing flavour??? Something to think about over Xmas!

Cheers!