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MikeyMike929

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Hi all: I made my first gallon batch of cider from apple juice with one cup of white sugar and Red Star Premier Classique yeast. Two weeks primary, then racked to secondary for a week. It has now cleared up beautifully. Totally flat and clear on top. No bubbles at all. Specific gravity a hair under 1.000. But it tastes like white wine, with no real discernible apple flavor. Is this normal? Do cider manufacturers add in apple juice or concentrate at the end? Or did I get too much alcohol from the added sugar which masks the apple flavor? Thanks!
 
Every ingredient matters.

Use the best juice you can find, preferably fresh pressed from a local orchard. Old heritage variety apples tend to give more acidity and tannin than regular grocery apples, which add interesting complexity to the cider. If you can add a few crabapples to the mix, even better. But if you don't have a choice of apples or juice source, your expectations should not be as high.

I would not have added any sugar. And you added a lot. This will dilute the apple flavor and make it more wine-like.

Yeast matters. You can experiment with different yeasts that don't ferment as much, or which leave more apple flavors behind than others. You can also try ale yeasts which tend to leave a little more sweetness behind than wine yeasts.

You can backsweeten with fresh juice but may need to inhibit further fermentation either by adding sorbate and sulfite or by heat pasteurization. Alternatively you can backsweeten with unfermentable options such as lactose or xylitol (I like these options). You might enjoy your cider better with backsweetening one way or another.

Good luck, welcome to this fun hobby.
 
I'm trying to get that figured out myself as my previous ciders have been much like what you describe. See the Irish Cider and Three Cider Experiment threads here for my thinking and some ideas.

I do think the added sugar is working against you some, but it's not over for you yet. I boosted the tannin and acid levels in my latest batches to try to get things closer to the fuller bodied/more fruity ciders I like. I intend to let the three batches finish out, taste and adjust. I may add more acid, tannin or apple juice concentrate after the fact. I suggest you try the same.

Good luck.
 
I'm trying to get that figured out myself as my previous ciders have been much like what you describe. See the Irish Cider and Three Cider Experiment threads here for my thinking and some ideas.

I do think the added sugar is working against you some, but it's not over for you yet. I boosted the tannin and acid levels in my latest batches to try to get things closer to the fuller bodied/more fruity ciders I like. I intend to let the three batches finish out, taste and adjust. I may add more acid, tannin or apple juice concentrate after the fact. I suggest you try the same.

Good luck.
Thanks for your thoughts. My second batch I did 85% apple juice and 15% cherry juice, and no added sugar. So the alcohol content will be lower and perhaps more fruit flavor will come through.
 
Every ingredient matters.

Use the best juice you can find, preferably fresh pressed from a local orchard. Old heritage variety apples tend to give more acidity and tannin than regular grocery apples, which add interesting complexity to the cider. If you can add a few crabapples to the mix, even better. But if you don't have a choice of apples or juice source, your expectations should not be as high.

I would not have added any sugar. And you added a lot. This will dilute the apple flavor and make it more wine-like.

Yeast matters. You can experiment with different yeasts that don't ferment as much, or which leave more apple flavors behind than others. You can also try ale yeasts which tend to leave a little more sweetness behind than wine yeasts.

You can backsweeten with fresh juice but may need to inhibit further fermentation either by adding sorbate and sulfite or by heat pasteurization. Alternatively you can backsweeten with unfermentable options such as lactose or xylitol (I like these options). You might enjoy your cider better with backsweetening one way or another.

Good luck, welcome to this fun hobby.
Thanks for the tips. This was just store-bough apple juice. Will try using farm-stand cider next time.
 
Thanks for your thoughts. My second batch I did 85% apple juice and 15% cherry juice, and no added sugar. So the alcohol content will be lower and perhaps more fruit flavor will come through.
I like the sound of that! Glad you were able to do one without the sugar too so you can compare.
 
Thanks for the tips. This was just store-bough apple juice. Will try using farm-stand cider next time.
There are many different brands of grocery store apple juice Some have a much better flavor than others. I would look for 100% apple juice not made from concentate. I have had good results from Treetop Sweet and Tart apple juice.

But you still need to add some acid and tannin to make it more like the juice from cider apples. Since malic acid is the main acid in apples, I use mostly malic acid rather than acid blend. Farm stand apple juice, if it is not from cider apples, will still be lacking in acid and tannins. But it will have a better flavor.
 
Try 2 ounces of this per 5 gallons after fermentation. Back sweeten with Splenda. Bottle. Age 90 days.
IMG_5494.jpeg
 
Every year my family squeezes our own apples. We have 10 varieties that squeeze all together and usually end up with something like 100-150 gallons. I always take 5 to ferment into hard cider. My method is, I heat pasteurize the fresh cider to kill the bugs (I heat to 175 then take off the stove). I have played with adding sulfites. I don’t perceive any taste difference between the heat and sulfite batches. Then ferment 4 gallons and freeze the remaining 1 gallon. After the 4 gallons has fermented out, I keg it and add the additional frozen gallon. I attach the gas, and serve it on draft. It always great. Tastes like fresh pressed cider.
 
I've got a bottle of Shonauer Apfel liqueur and might try a splash of that in a glass with the cider. But probably my first choice will be to add frozen apple juice concentrate to both boost apple flavor but also to give a little sweetness and help with carbonation.
 
If you add concentrate to the carboy, it will convert to alcohol but not add sweetness. It will be drier, less sweet. Won't add carbonation.

If you kegged it and used a measured amount, you could use it to carbonate the batch.

If you add concentrate to a glass you are drinking, it will add apple flavor and sweetness but not carbonation.

If you add concentrate to the bottling bucket, it has the potential to cause bottle bombs depending on how much you add. Will not add sweetness, would cause secondary fermentation in the bottle.
 
If you add concentrate to the carboy, it will convert to alcohol but not add sweetness. It will be drier, less sweet. Won't add carbonation.

If you kegged it and used a measured amount, you could use it to carbonate the batch.

If you add concentrate to a glass you are drinking, it will add apple flavor and sweetness but not carbonation.

If you add concentrate to the bottling bucket, it has the potential to cause bottle bombs depending on how much you add. Will not add sweetness, would cause secondary fermentation in the bottle.
But...if you add concentrate, allow it to partially ferment and then pasteurize you've got some sweetening AND carbonation.
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I was noodling things over today and had a thought. Seems a lot of us want that apple flavor to come through, me included, and talk about adding things to get it. Of course unfermented cider comes to mind, but that's dilutive to the alcohol that we also want. So....

Maybe add sugar to your cider to get up to around 1.100 for a potential alcohol of 12% and ferment it dry. Then add an equal volume of unfermented cider which would dilute it to a more normal cider level of 6% but with a healthy dose of apple flavor? Of course that would kick up the sweetness a bit but that could be balanced with some acid and/or tannin additions if needed. Could also facilitate bottle carbonation.

There might be some scientists/mathematicians that could blow a hole in my math, but the concept seems to make sense to me.

Thoughts?
 
I was noodling things over today and had a thought. Seems a lot of us want that apple flavor to come through, me included, and talk about adding things to get it. Of course unfermented cider comes to mind, but that's dilutive to the alcohol that we also want. So....

Maybe add sugar to your cider to get up to around 1.100 for a potential alcohol of 12% and ferment it dry. Then add an equal volume of unfermented cider which would dilute it to a more normal cider level of 6% but with a healthy dose of apple flavor? Of course that would kick up the sweetness a bit but that could be balanced with some acid and/or tannin additions if needed. Could also facilitate bottle carbonation.

There might be some scientists/mathematicians that could blow a hole in my math, but the concept seems to make sense to me.

Thoughts?
You could fill a glass with half cider, half apple juice, give it a try.
 
Every year my family squeezes our own apples. We have 10 varieties that squeeze all together and usually end up with something like 100-150 gallons. I always take 5 to ferment into hard cider. My method is, I heat pasteurize the fresh cider to kill the bugs (I heat to 175 then take off the stove). I have played with adding sulfites. I don’t perceive any taste difference between the heat and sulfite batches. Then ferment 4 gallons and freeze the remaining 1 gallon. After the 4 gallons has fermented out, I keg it and add the additional frozen gallon. I attach the gas, and serve it on draft. It always great. Tastes like fresh pressed cider.
only five? never did pasteurize only wild fermentation with cider. next time do 10 gallons and let one 5 gallon buck. wild ferment wont look like much during fermentation but it happens.

i have picked apples fermenting from the inside out which you wouldnt think would happen but it does.

and to think i had to cut down an apple tree that was growing into the house and shed that grew racket ball sized crap apples.
 
Hi all: I made my first gallon batch of cider from apple juice with one cup of white sugar and Red Star Premier Classique yeast. Two weeks primary, then racked to secondary for a week. It has now cleared up beautifully. Totally flat and clear on top. No bubbles at all. Specific gravity a hair under 1.000. But it tastes like white wine, with no real discernible apple flavor. Is this normal? Do cider manufacturers add in apple juice or concentrate at the end? Or did I get too much alcohol from the added sugar which masks the apple flavor? Thanks!
Hey Mike, I grow and press my own apples and have made cider for years. Store bought juice will usually end up like a white wine but if you back sweeten it can sometimes help bring out some of that fruit flavor but may not taste like apples. Cider makers let apples ripen far longer than what we find at the store and the apples will begin to perfume an entire house as they ripen. This process of ripening until the apples begin to smell strongly adds a good amount of flavor and scent to the apple must. Fermenting colder will help keep some of the flavor compounds so you might try that.
If I were fermenting store bought juice, I would ferment at as low a temperature as I could, maybe use lager yeast. Minimize head space as flavor compounds in cider will oxidize. Consider back sweetening just enough that it is not bone dry in order to help accentuate the fruit. You may also try different brands with the above process and see if some brands retain fruit flavor more than others. If you cannot get the flavor profile you are after, you could consider adding some apple flavor.
Ben
 
grahams cider.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/grahams-english-cider.107152/
dont use a wine yeast use an ale yeast which shouldnt end up as dry.
and start with good juice always. motts works fine.
if still too dry you can sweeten in the glass by adding monin apple syrup to taste.
grenadine also works well and makes it very nice pinkish hue.
you can also add to the keg and keep very cold so it doesnt really ferment the sugar in the cordials.
 
In addition to the great advice above, it helps to modify the apple juice so that it is more like cider apples. You can do that by adding some malic acid and tannins. Doing that gives the apple juice more depth of flavor. Then backsweeten at least a little to bring out the apple flavor.

If you don't have a pH meter, try adding 1/8 tsp malic acid to a gallon of apple juice and tasting it to see if you like the change. You might need to add a little more.

You can get some powdered wine tannin and add 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. of that per gallon.
 
Graham's English Cider
5 gallons Treetop (or equivalent) Apple Juice
4 black teabags (English or Irish Breakfast)
3 key limes (or one regular lime)
1 pack s-04 yeast
(yeast nutrients as needed)

the tannin in black tea really does wonders for making wines or ciders from juice. which lack the tannins in fresh fruit as said above. i think the tannins are in the skin. you wont taste the tea and it wont darken the cider. juice wines use black tea tannins and lemon juice (for citric acid) and optional glycerine for body. juice wine viscosity can also be low (which results in thin wines and ciders) and glycerine can help this but i stopped adding it a long time ago. i think erythritol which is unfermentable and can add sweetness also adds body by being unfermentable.

adding malic to ciders i thought had to do with malic acid fermentation in ciders. MLF. but i think after reading the thread below that adding malic back is for the acid bite perhaps because malic is used up in the mlf reaction. the citric acid from lemons or limes in this case ( or oranges in the case of JAOM) supplies juice wines or ciders with acid bite. adding lemon juice to juice ciders vs malic in a side by side would be easy and prolly worth a try.

adding malic to specifically apple juice rather then citric however may make a difference i dont know enough about ciders to say.

i havent tried to make cider with apple cider cause i am always worried about the final product being cloudy but im sure it will make better cider than juice cause the starting product tastes better.
cordial back sweeting is really easiest because you can just ferment to completely dry to 1.000 . or less by just letting it go. you dont event have to check gravity. after 1 month in carboy most wine yeasts will be dry as a bone even the ones that say not like kv1116. the drying out is whats removing the apple flavor. the yeast are eating through everything. ale yeasts usually conk out a little earlier than getting something that dry prolly cause they dont like apple must as much as barley wort. even with ale yeast if it gets too dry then after drying it out just keg or bottle. then a few drops of whatever flavor you want in the glass. the pour will thoroughly mix whatever syrup is in the bottom.


🍻
 
adding malic to specifically apple juice rather then citric however may make a difference i dont know enough about ciders to say.
Malic acid is the main acid in apples, so adding malic acid makes the flavor more apple-like. Similarly, for fruit wines I try to add the main acid in that type of fruit, e.g. citric acid for blueberry wine. If you want to do an experiment, take some grocery store apple juice and add the same amount of a different acid to each of several samples. Taste them each to see how they are different.

I don't do MLF in my ciders, so it has nothing to do with that.
 
Try using Red Star "Cote des Blancs" (Epernay 2) yeast. I keep trying different ale yeasts and wine yeasts -- I haven't tried bread yeast or lager yeast yet -- and I keep coming back to CdB because it tastes the best. And it's cheap👍

Also the cider will taste different (better) when it's carbonated. Then if it's still not apple-y enough, try adding just a little simple syrup when you serve it. It doesn't take much sweetness at all to bring the apple taste back. The good thing about sweetening it at serving time is everyone can sweeten to the level they like. You could even make a syrup out of frozen concentrated apple juice, but just sugar syrup is probably all you need. (you don't sweeten with powdered or granulated sweetener because it will fizz up and go flat)
 
It is a rainy day and I was pondering the perpetual question of getting more “apple flavour” into cider, especially with store-bought juice. Here is a left-field "pointy-head" approach to it.

I generally deal with any flavour issue conventionally by playing with malic acid or tannins since adding AJC also adds sugar which will increase alcohol disproportionally. So, I must stress that this is just an idea, I haven’t tried to do it and the arithmetic is a bit rough, but …

Typical cider apple juice is around SG 1.050, which means that using some typical numbers, a litre (say 1000g) comprises something like 870g of water, 110g of sugar and 20g of non-fermentable flavour compounds (acids, tannins, etc).

When it is fermented the 110g of sugar turns into 48% or 53g of CO2 (which goes off into the atmosphere), 48% or 53g of alcohol (which remains in the cider) and 4g of “new” non-fermentable flavour compounds.

So, the end result is 24g or 2.5% of flavour compounds in the remaining 947g of water and alcohol.

Since ethanol “boils” at 173F (80C), what would happen if the alcohol was boiled off and the “cider” simmered until the volume was reduced to say ½ litre? I have no idea how long this would take or if 80C would introduce a cooked flavour.

My guess is that the ½ litre would still have the original 24g of flavour compounds which is now at a concentration of 4.8%, double the original concentration. You end up with a form of AJC without the sugar. Voila, adding this non-fermentable “flavour concentration” to a litre of the original cider increases the flavour concentration from 2.5% to 3.3%, or an increase of 25% which would probably make a substantial difference to the “apple flavour”.

Sure, there are all sorts of combintions of volumes, alcolol boiled off – alcohol not boiled off, etc, but maybe some brilliant biochemist might be able to comment on whether this approach would work or not. It might even be a way to make low-alcohol cider without sacrificing flavour??? Something to think about over Xmas!

Cheers!
 
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I generally deal with any flavour issue conventionally by playing with malic acid or tannins
This is what I do too. I also add a bit of back sweetening, which really helps to bring out the apple flavor. My family and friends often comment on how much better my hard cider is compared to grocery store hard cider.

Of course it helps a lot to start with apple juice that has real character and depth to it. Sweet eating apples produce a very lackluster cider. Pie apples would provide a better flavor.

Since ethanol “boils” at 173F (80C), what would happen if the alcohol was boiled off and the “cider” simmered until the volume was reduced to say ½ litre? I have no idea how long this would take or if 80C would introduce a cooked flavour.
Many of the flavor compounds are volatile organic compounds that will be driven off or destroyed by heat, so by doing this you would lose much of the flavor. I suggest that you try this with a small sample and see how you like the flavor of the result.
 
Mikey! Hey buddy. I didn't read everybody's response but did see some replies referencing back treating with apple flavor extract. I have tried that previously but the flavor it imparted for me was not natural tasting and I didn't like it. Also some thought your addition of sugar likely killed off the flavors and then saw some references to different suggestions for different concentrates for making your must to get better flavored final product.

Quick background on my story. Not really a drinker myself. Never acquired a taste for beer during my 52 years. Hate pretty much all wines. Most people on here likely have much more experience than me as well. To be honest, I pretty much only drink my own cider. Or if something purchased, I not ashamed to admit I prefer something most would consider chicky or girly to drink.

But I got into cider years ago cause I had an alki coworker that decide they were going to get into cider to make some cheep hooch to cut their monthly drink expense. This person informed me of the fact they were going to start the venture and also informed me that I was going to make cider too so they had someone to compete with. Just cuz he was that caustic type that always has to prove himself superior to others. Challenge accepted!

Anyways my friend did all kinds of research and was blending all kinds of juice concentrate with natural crab apples for tannins and malic acid flavors and all kinds of apple flavor extracts. Anyways his end result was stuff that tasted like lighter fluid at best! I went over to his house and looked at his set-up and after all that work he was fermenting in a hot room on his kitchen table right beside the window sun blasting blasting on it and all! I was like, "Dude!" what are you doing! I know nothing, but to me it seems you are wasting all your time and effort on the magic must recipe and then just throwing it at a hap hazard fermentation process. For all intensive purposes, you would probably get better results trying to ferment this stuff in the toilet!"

He said, "Alright Einstein! Dazzle me with your superior knowledge!" I told him I haven't even made a single batch yet, but I will tell you how I am going to approach my effort. I am going to assume that the must is the best it is ever going to taste and it is only going down hill from there. So I am not touching my must with any of that crazy stuff you added in an attempt to hit some magic moving target after fermentation. After all, if the must tastes like crap once your done dosing it with all that stuff before you even start fermentation, it is only down hill from there buddy! And down the hill from crap is lighter fluid as we have just discovered!

So at this point I knew my target I had to hit was not that high in quality to beat his total failure. So, I made a simple must with a couple jugs of store bought apple juice and it tasted too sweet without any balancing sour. So I picked up a couple cans of frozen concentrate. One had Ascorbic acid added and the other had both ascorbic acid and malic acid added by the manufacturer. I figured the juice manufacturer knew a lot more about balancing flavor than I did so I was going rely on them and not try to become an expert myself. After adding those two cans of concentrate to the simple jug apple juice the flavor balance was really nice! I was pleased. Lots of room to go down hill from here and still have something drinkable. I then threw in a bunch of sugar for extra punch for my alki coworker.

I started first attempt which was two - 1 gallon glass carboys. I threw a pack of 1116 in one and a pack of 1118 in the other. I put them in my basement in a cold corner down there cause I read something about elevated temps stress the yeast and cause too rapid a ferment with off flavors. My friend's Hell's kitchen table ferment prove that to me. I was a believer!

Well, it was early December so my spot in the basement was about 50F. The ferment started rather slow and just seemed to simmer along slowly for about 3-4 weeks. At that point, once the air lock activity slowed to almost a complete stop I sampled both jugs. The 1118 jug was almost completely flavorless. It tested like someone cut Everclear with distilled water down to 18%. The 1116 jug had some slight apple flavor but it was over powered by a really aggressive acidic bite that just about stripped the enamel off your teeth. I heard about mellowing in secondary aging so figured that I would pour it off the lees and transfer to new 1 gallon jugs. I was shocked by how different the two products were considering the yeast was the only difference because both gallon carboys were originally filled the same batch of must in the beginning. Since I was not happy with either, I decided to blend them 50/50 in secondary and see how the two different batches interacted with each other in aging. 1 month later I sampled and wow! what an improvement. Almost drinkable. added just a small shot of concentrate to each repurposed, used plastic pop bottle and bottled up my batch. Let them sit until the bottles got firm and took a few to my coworker to finish this ridiculous challenge. He thought he was drinking the nectar of the God's. I was not as impressed myself. But I was impressed by two things; the difference imparted by the two different yeasts and how the blending in secondary really added quality and complexity that both yeasts originally lacked on their own.

With this new gain experience, I decided to do the only thing that a typical non-drinking process engineer would do. I decided that I was going to make a huge batch of must and split it between 18 different fermenters and do a 18 way yeast comparison. I was expecting some difference based on my initial results, but ,WOW!!!!!, I was not prepared for how big the range of flavors would actually be!!!!!!

I had multiple different friend groups do blind taste test samplings to compare the different batches against one another. I told the testers to rank based on overall pleasing cider taste and drinkability, residual apple flavor, and balance of complexity and character. Individual preferences did cause the individual testers to have different #1 favorites. But, when combining every taster's top 3, here are the general favorites that the tasters showed preference for over the other yeasts in the comparison study. (D47, Premier Rouge, RC-212, CY17, VR21, CR51, SN9)

Over all, the biggest apple flavor in the finished product came with D47 & Premier Rouge. Next were the RC-212 & CY17 that did not quite have the same strength of apple flavor but were very well rounded ciders with great drinkability. The remaining 3 were also very good but seemed to be highly favored by fewer and seemed to appeal to the preferences of a smaller cross section of the testers in my experiment.

So my very limited advice is to use one of these yeasts and go slow and cool in your fermentation and you will likely end up with a product you will be vary happy with.

Final disclaimers:
1. I can't really call what I made cider. All the sugar I added to the must brought the finished content up to about 17-19%. More like really strong apple wine.
2. Also, many of the yeasts mentioned above stopped well before chewing threw much of that high sugar content. Those that stopped way short and resulted in way too sweet of a final product were blended with a dose of some ferment from a 1118 primary I had going in parallel and the 1118 seemed to kick-in in secondary and consume the rest of the sugars the original yeast could not handle without affecting the flavor much at all. 1118 seems to be very neutral and in secondary does not alter flavor much at all. But!!! starting with 1118 in primary seems to overpower all other yeasts and completely processes all flavors into oblivion. Don't know why 1118 erases all flavors when used in primary but does not seem to affect remaining flavors significantly when blending with other primary ferments in secondary?
3. When mixing strong must and finishing by blending with 1118, I am able to carbonate in the bottle and the high alcohol content combined with the high carbonation pressure seems to stop me just short of dry. I usually retain just a slight residual sweetness without any treatments or passivation and secondary back sweetening. My carbonation dose accomplishes both carbonation and the final residual sweetness. Note: this is not sipping cider! At18-19% this is 16oz goes down way too easy and then sneaks up on you with a club and clobbers you! Please drink carefully and responsibly!!!!
 
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You could play around with the ratios until you find something you like.
That is part of the fun. I am getting ready to 2nd rack my cider batch, it is a little cloudy so I am going to do a taste test and decide what I want it to be, either a white wine or apple mead, adding toasted oak and or honey to 2nd rack, if it hasn't cleared in 4 months I will add bentonite and maybe some Ukraine brandy prior to bottling. Good luck out there and sometimes the doubtful batches turn out good with time.
 
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