Newbie Questions about Whirlpool and Chilling

[codytx]

Very new to brewing (4 total batches, 2 all-grain). I have the Grainfather G40 with a conical fermenter w/ a gylcol chiller. I have a few questions I can't seem to find a good answer to..

What I've been doing is after the boil, waiting about 10-15m for the wort to cool a few degrees passively and then transferring it to the fermenter directly. I whirlpool fairly aggressively with a paddle during that time to cool it off (& b/c I read it somewhere). I'm in TX so my groundwater is hot right now so it generally gets in the fermenter at about 90 degrees. I put the lid & airlock on the fermenter, turn on the chiller, wait 60-90 minutes, and pitch the yeast when it hits ~70

1. I've read that hot side aeration is bad but also to whirlpool at the end. Should I be whirlpooling "less" aggressive? My G40 has a false bottom so it does a good job at filtering out trub.
2. Is what I'm doing with the fermenter ok or is that too fast? I've seen people who wait an hour and then some say 20 minutes is too long. Should I try to cool the entire kettle down to 85 degrees (or lower) first before transferring back into the kettle?

 

[Dland]

A little hot side aeration is good, the yeast needs some 02 to get going initially, helps with cell division I believe. It is after fermentation you want to nix any oxidation.

I don't think it matters much what vessel you do the cooling in, but the downside to cooling too slowly it the DMS can form in the wort, and this makes an off flavor.

I drop temp from 212 to around 165F with imersion chilller, then whirlpool to center hot break trub so I can leave it behind, then cool to cellar with a plate chiller, ideally ending up near pitching temp. This all takes around 20-25 minutes for a 10 gallon batch. Cooling more slowly than that is not necessarily bad, but my process has worked very well for me.

 

[codytx]

A little hot side aeration is good, the yeast needs some 02 to get going initially, helps with cell division I believe. It is after fermentation you want to nix any oxidation.

I don't think it matters much what vessel you do the cooling in, but the downside to cooling too slowly it the DMS can form in the wort, and this makes an off flavor.

I drop temp from 212 to around 165F with imersion chilller, then whirlpool to center hot break trub so I can leave it behind, then cool to cellar with a plate chiller, ideally ending up near pitching temp. This all takes around 20-25 minutes for a 10 gallon batch. Cooling more slowly than that is not necessarily bad, but my process has worked very well for me.

I'm thinking I may need to supplement with some sort of ice bath to help. Groundwater here is about 83 right now, so I think I need to supplement it with something. I'll probably get a plate chiller though but that still isn't going to get me below 80 from June-September in TX

 

[TexasTea]

Howdy codytx, Always nice to see another brewer in my area (I'm up in magnolia TX). You are spot on with the well water temp, mine is running about 80. How deep is your well? Mine bottoms out at 183 feet (bottom of the Evangeline/Chicot) aquifer in my area

My well driller told me that the city of Houston was making people close up thier wells and get on city water. Have you heard anything about that? I'm in a different county but geez, I hope this isn't true.

You could always use the no chill method popular down under. They seal the near boiling wort up in a steel jerry can (all the way to the top-no air) put the lid on and let it cool overnight. I'm trying this my next batch.

 

[codytx]

Howdy codytx, Always nice to see another brewer in my area (I'm up in magnolia TX). You are spot on with the well water temp, mine is running about 80. How deep is your well? Mine bottoms out at 183 feet (bottom of the Evangeline/Chicot) aquifer in my area

My well driller told me that the city of Houston was making people close up thier wells and get on city water. Have you heard anything about that? I'm in a different county but geez, I hope this isn't true.

You could always use the no chill method popular down under. They seal the near boiling wort up in a steel jerry can (all the way to the top-no air) put the lid on and let it cool overnight. I'm trying this my next batch.

I'm on city water - Groundwater was a typo but wells are not allowed in our neighborhood (Huffman). I do know a few people who've got them installed in the cloak of the night.

 

[TexasTea]

I guess my well driller was correct. Thanks for getting back to me.

 

[Dland]

I'm thinking I may need to supplement with some sort of ice bath to help. Groundwater here is about 83 right now, so I think I need to supplement it with something. I'll probably get a plate chiller though but that still isn't going to get me below 80 from June-September in TX

Ice bath will work. You could also make a glycol chiller out of an old AC unit, or buy one I suppose. I made one a few years back, it was pretty easy, there are threads on this on this forum. Another approach is to use an old fridge or freezer as a fermentation chamber

Even 83F water will drop the temp down from boiling to 150 pretty fast. DMS only forms in wort above 170F, so I'm told, so if you cool it down some with tap water, you can safely wait for it to cool the rest of the way overnignt or whatever. Just try to keep the wort clean, flies out, etc.

For what its worth, when I cool my wort to 165F with immersion chiller, I only use about 5 gallons of water running through the chiller slowly. I could go faster, but am saving water.

 

[codytx]

Ice bath will work. You could also make a glycol chiller out of an old AC unit, or buy one I suppose. I made one a few years back, it was pretty easy, there are threads on this on this forum. Another approach is to use an old fridge or freezer as a fermentation chamber

Even 83F water will drop the temp down from boiling to 150 pretty fast. DMS only forms in wort above 170F, so I'm told, so if you cool it down some with tap water, you can safely wait for it to cool the rest of the way overnignt or whatever. Just try to keep the wort clean, flies out, etc.

For what its worth, when I cool my wort to 165F with immersion chiller, I only use about 5 gallons of water running through the chiller slowly. I could go faster, but am saving water.

Do you see any reason why this approach would cause issues? from reading a bunch of threads, this seems like what I may try today until I set up an ice bath situation. I also don't have a stainless steel whirlpool arm

Use counter chiller to cool temp to below 170 with the lid on in the kettle trying to avoid splashing. At 170, use the IC to create a whirlpool for 15m then continue w/ the chiller to the primary which will probably get it in there around 90 degrees. Seal the fermenter (lid + airlock) and let the glycol chiller get it to pitching temp, which usually happens in 60-90 minutes. Then open, aerate, and pitch

Since I'm very new, right now, my primary focus is getting good tasting beer consistently,. I use a whirfloc tablet for now

 

[bike2brew]

Here's my setup with ice bath and immersion chiller. I use around 5 bags of ice for a 5 gallon batch and transfer somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 to 68 degrees. I use a small imersible pump to recirculate water so not flowing from faucet continuously during the cooling process.

 

[Dland]

Do you see any reason why this approach would cause issues? from reading a bunch of threads, this seems like what I may try today until I set up an ice bath situation. I also don't have a stainless steel whirlpool arm

Use counter chiller to cool temp to below 170 with the lid on in the kettle trying to avoid splashing. At 170, use the IC to create a whirlpool for 15m then continue w/ the chiller to the primary which will probably get it in there around 90 degrees. Seal the fermenter (lid + airlock) and let the glycol chiller get it to pitching temp, which usually happens in 60-90 minutes. Then open, aerate, and pitch

Since I'm very new, right now, my primary focus is getting good tasting beer consistently,. I use a whirfloc tablet for now

That should work. I'm don't think it is even necessary to cover wort when cooling below 170. In general, when trying to reduce DMS, it is recommended to let the steam out. Of course if there are flies or dust, it might be good to cover, but at temps above 160F, there is some sanitation anyway.

I would not worry too about not splashing the hot wort, except for avoiding burning oneself. When I whirlpool, I just stir vigorously with a big stainless spoon for a minute or so. Nothing wrong with whirlfoc, I use it in every batch.

 

[codytx]

That should work. I'm don't think it is even necessary to cover wort when cooling below 170. In general, when trying to reduce DMS, it is recommended to let the steam out. Of course if there are flies or dust, it might be good to cover, but at temps above 160F, there is some sanitation anyway.

I would not worry too about not splashing the hot wort, except for avoiding burning oneself. When I whirlpool, I just stir vigorously with a big stainless spoon for a minute or so. Nothing wrong with whirlfoc, I use it in every batch.

Thanks !! Having someone to just bounce newbie questions is so helpful in the early stages.

 

[bike2brew]

I cover my wort to keep the flies out of it .

 

[codytx]

I cover my wort to keep the flies out of it .

I brew inside my mancave/home office but that is a good point. there could be a fly or two roaming around for sure

 

[Brewer dad]

Hey @Dland I have been wondering about doing exactly what you describe, chilling initially with IC then finishing with a PC. Could you briefly describe you process for this as far as how you deal with the PC? My biggest hangup is dealing with sanitation but avoiding hop matter going in. Been looking at something like a hop stopper.

 

[codytx]

Hey @Dland I have been wondering about doing exactly what you describe, chilling initially with IC then finishing with a PC. Could you briefly describe you process for this as far as how you deal with the PC? My biggest hangup is dealing with sanitation but avoiding hop matter going in. Been looking at something like a hop stopper.

I'm incredibly new at this so take anything I say with a grain of salt but... For the first time 2 days ago I used the IC to get to 165 inside the kettle, then went straight into fermenter. I only started the whirlpool after it hit 165. This is the first time I saw what I assume some call the "hop cone". The beer (pilsner) going into the fermenter looked super clear.

I seem to get mixed reviews on how bad it really is having hop in the fermenter, particularly w/ a conical.

Of course, i'm so new at this that I seem to get mixed reviews on everything except that we all agree that Beer. Is. Good.

 

[Dland]

Hey @Dland I have been wondering about doing exactly what you describe, chilling initially with IC then finishing with a PC. Could you briefly describe you process for this as far as how you deal with the PC? My biggest hangup is dealing with sanitation but avoiding hop matter going in. Been looking at something like a hop stopper.

I'll take a picture next time I brew, but will try to describe, sorry if sounds a bit pedantic, but trying to be clear;

When there is 10 minutes left to boil, I add a couple of whirlflock (10 gallon batch).

When there is around 5 minutes left to boil I put the immersion chiller in the BK (boil kettle) to sanitize.

After boil is turned off, I run water slowly though the immersion chiller coil until wort temp is around 165.

Take out the immersion chiller and vigorously stir with large slotted spoon to center the hot break trub in middle of BK. Let the wort circle around and settle for 5 to 15 minutes, depending on what else I'm doing.

Here is the step I left out in initial description:

I take my mash tun, which is a converted 1/2 keg with bottom output, dump and rinse it and false bottom. It sits on ground just under BK on stand. I gravity feed from BK into into the vessel that was mash tun, though a SS hop spider (which I sometimes put hops in, often not) this filters out any grain, hop residue and stray hot break trub, so I usually have a pretty clean wort. This is important, since the wort then gets run through a plate chiller, which is hard to clean and sanitize if bulk debris are run though it.

Then the wort is pumped though plate chiller, then through cellar window into fermentor.

Sorry for the long post, it is not complicated or that time consuming, just trying to go step by step